Any HVAC Experts On Board? Lennox?

[Sigarms]

Set it for the temp you want, and let it run...

That would be fine if there was not five degrees fahrenheit variance. That's going from uncomfortably warm to uncomfortably cold.

Take my word for it, stay away from mobile apps on your mini split system. With a mobile app, you're now including a whole set of possible issues that has nothing to do with the mini split system. Set it for the temp you want, and let it run...

Can you elaborate? The Cielo controller can be used locally as well as via wifi. Are you saying there are possible issues with either method or just the mobile app and wifi, and what are the issues?

Sad to say, I laughed, you'er absolutely right about the 5 degree variance as far as letting the system run.

I'm assuming the wall mount is about 6'-7' off the floor? (swear to God, you wouldn't believe how low some people actually place a wall mount off the floor instead of just using floor mount because the wall mount is cheaper).

I know nothing about the Cielo controller. Does Lennox make it for their equipment or is it a generic aftermarket product? I'm assuming its by a third party.

At the end of the day, an inverter system is meant to be run 24/7 with as little cycling as possible IMO.

Biggest issue I've personally experienced with wifi issues have to do with the wifi connection in the home, where the equipment isn't the problem, but the wifi system iteself. I'd feel the same way with a inverter ducted system not needing wifi. Put the system in, set the temp, and don't worry about it. Depending on the algorithms installed by the mini split manufacturer as well, some systems my not play nice with conventional multi stage tstats or third party apps (generally with a unitary split ducted inverter system, the tstat controller is propriatary to the equipment manufacturer only) . This is where I'm slowly becoming "old school". If a HVAC inerter system is installed and sized correctly, you don't need to phone to monitor the system and all your doing is adding another potential headache.

 

[wagne223]

Yes, temperatures in Kansas can range from -20F to +120F.

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Wondering if this universal mini split controller might be an answer. Supposedly it shuts the unit "off" when set temp is reached and "on" when it needs to heat or cool. My question would be if shutting the unit completely off is a good thing. Anyone with experience with these? They are also wifi controllable with the app for what that's worth.

Edit: After further reading, it sounds like the controller does not actually turn the unit on and off but actually cycles the compressor for heat or cool and also controls the fan speed.

I have 3 pioneer mini splits. My understanding and experience is they have a 4 degree swing on-off.
Mini splits are designed to keep you comfortable and control humidity by running continually. They do not cycle like typical split systems.

Not sure what you're saying above. How does one get them to run continually rather than cycle?

Invertor compressor is variable. It can operate from approximately 30 percent to 100 percent.
The system can adjust output according to demand. So as the room temp drops, so does the compressor output.

The software tries to keep the system running for maximum comfort, however if it is at 30 percent and the room temp gets to 4 degrees below the set temp, it will shut off the compressor.

If the unit is sized correct for the space then this design provides good comfort and is very efficient.

I run into your exact issue in my garage as I intentionally oversized that unit.
The issue is minimized by running an additional circulating fan.

Try adding a circulating fan, and make temp adjustment 1 degree at a time.
See if that helps.

 

[npalen]

This decal as shown is on the Lennox mini split indoor unit. There is nothing in the sales literature or installation manual relative to this. It is hard to mount the unit with its bottom at least eight feet above the floor on an eight foot wall.
I suspect that it simply gives Lennox and "out" when users complain about the wide temperature swings.

 

[LD1]

The manual says the default parameter for F7 is -2.

You said you tried adjusting it....with little help. What have you tried? Have you tried -1?

Lacking detail on the remote.....it is hard to understand exactly what the setting is "supposed" to do. But If I had to guess....the -2 means that whatever your T-stat set point is is when it will kick on and start cooling....until it is -2 below the setpoint. Once there....it will kick off until it warms back up to setpoint.

But....you have to read the note about parameter F7. Because that -2 is in Celsius. And in the ~70 degree F range that you are targeting for cooling.....2 degrees C is equal to a little over 3-1/2 degrees F.

Everything in HVAC is a balance between comfort and equipment reliability. Most HVAC people will tell you to set the swing to as large as you can tolerate. It is IMPOSSIBLE to set the t-stat and have the temp stay a perfect 72.00 degrees no matter what. The very SECOND that the AC kicks on.....it starts going down...71.9....71.8.....71.7.....etc. And the very second it shuts off.....it goes back up.

The lower the swing....the more "comfort" because the closer you maintain to whatever setpoint you desire. But at the cost of constant equipment cycling on and off. On the flip side....the larger the swing the less comfortable but you cycle the equipment a whole lot less.

For my Geo, I have a 2 degree swing. (which on mine is from -1 to +1 from set point.) So I set it at 71, and it kicks on at 72 and off at 70.
For heating I up it to a 3-degree swing.

I think the combination of a small room....small unit....and you having it programmed at -2 (which if my understanding is correct) means it actually a 3.6 degree swing.....which translates in reality to more like a 4-5 degree swing by the time the unit reacts in such a small space. So I'd back that F7 parameter down to -1 or even less if it allows fractional degrees

 

[Sigarms]

This decal as shown is on the Lennox mini split indoor unit. There is nothing in the sales literature or installation manual relative to this. It is hard to mount the unit with its bottom at least eight feet above the floor on an eight foot wall.
I suspect that it simply gives Lennox and "out" when users complain about the wide temperature swings.

It's not lennox looking for an out, you will find this with most cheap mini split systems in their instuction manual (per mounting height). Hard to believe, but if a job has a permit pulled, some inspectors will actually read the instruction manual.

Most rooms in NC are 8' high from floor to ceiling. That indoor unit wouldn't sell to well in NC.

If the "warning lable" is on the unit, it's in the isntructional manual. The bigger question is when the indoor unit was installed and the warning lable is on the unit and the guy is looking at while installing it, why didn't anyone from the installing dealer ask questions?

By the way, the manufacturer can have something in writing if the inspections department is actually asking about it. Happens all the time with hard nosed inspectors.

Once you go under 5'-6' with a wall mount unit mini split, you get temperature stratification issues that can get you complaints from the end user that they need to be made aware of before hand.

Tell your dealer to ditch the Lennox off brand private lable mini split. He should thank you for it.

 

[Sigarms]

I run into your exact issue in my garage as I intentionally oversized that unit.
The issue is minimized by running an additional circulating fan.

Seems your having an airflow issue.

The software tries to keep the system running for maximum comfort, however if it is at 30 percent and the room temp gets to 4 degrees below the set temp, it will shut off the compressor.

If you're off by 4 dgrees, the unit shouldn't be running at 30%.

Lot of units have a "power mode" to heat or cool quickly to satisfy the temp setting and then the compressor will ramp down to maintain a constant temp setting.

 

[Sigarms]

Everything in HVAC is a balance between comfort and equipment reliability. Most HVAC people will tell you to set the swing to as large as you can tolerate. It is IMPOSSIBLE to set the t-stat and have the temp stay a perfect 72.00 degrees no matter what. The very SECOND that the AC kicks on.....it starts going down...71.9....71.8.....71.7.....etc. And the very second it shuts off.....it goes back up.

I know some contractors who would argue with you on it being impossible to keep a constant temperature within 1 degree.

As mentioned, inverter systems are really not meant to be cycled on and off, but run 24/7. The system runs and adjusts to the temperature.

Part of the issue is people think if their system is running all the time, it's costing them more money. That is not true.

Keep in mind, at the end of the day, you also need to ensure your data is correct. If I even think I'm having an issue with my own thermostat or system, I break out temperature and humidity gauges to verify the thermostat is giving me correct information to eliminate that possibility.

 

[ponytug]

Small room, lots of outside walls, plus variable solar load: challenging conditions.

None of the following is strictly a Lennox solution.
I think that a fan would help; not only would it break up air stratification, but also it would spread warm / cool air around to help warm/cool the room and the objects in the room more uniformly. Have you checked the fan settings to see if they can be turned up for more circulation?

Can you add thermal mass to the room? Wrought iron furniture? Concrete floor? 55 gallon drop of water disguised a care bear? Can you put in a reflective shade on the sunny windows to reduce the solar input?

Some folks that I know have a similar setup, and vary the door opening to the rest of the house to help modulate the temperature.

All the best,

Peter

 

[npalen]

The manual says the default parameter for F7 is -2.

You said you tried adjusting it....with little help. What have you tried? Have you tried -1?

Lacking detail on the remote.....it is hard to understand exactly what the setting is "supposed" to do. But If I had to guess....the -2 means that whatever your T-stat set point is is when it will kick on and start cooling....until it is -2 below the setpoint. Once there....it will kick off until it warms back up to setpoint.

But....you have to read the note about parameter F7. Because that -2 is in Celsius. And in the ~70 degree F range that you are targeting for cooling.....2 degrees C is equal to a little over 3-1/2 degrees F.

Everything in HVAC is a balance between comfort and equipment reliability. Most HVAC people will tell you to set the swing to as large as you can tolerate. It is IMPOSSIBLE to set the t-stat and have the temp stay a perfect 72.00 degrees no matter what. The very SECOND that the AC kicks on.....it starts going down...71.9....71.8.....71.7.....etc. And the very second it shuts off.....it goes back up.

The lower the swing....the more "comfort" because the closer you maintain to whatever setpoint you desire. But at the cost of constant equipment cycling on and off. On the flip side....the larger the swing the less comfortable but you cycle the equipment a whole lot less.

For my Geo, I have a 2 degree swing. (which on mine is from -1 to +1 from set point.) So I set it at 71, and it kicks on at 72 and off at 70.
For heating I up it to a 3-degree swing.

I think the combination of a small room....small unit....and you having it programmed at -2 (which if my understanding is correct) means it actually a 3.6 degree swing.....which translates in reality to more like a 4-5 degree swing by the time the unit reacts in such a small space. So I'd back that F7 parameter down to -1 or even less if it allows fractional degrees

I will try a -1 on the F7 setting. I kind of gave up on the idea of trying different adjustments after thinking more about the "stratification" associated with the F7 description thinking that it was futile.
Just getting into parameter adjustment mode is quite an undertaking with shutting down, pulling batteries out of the remote etc.

 

[npalen]

Small room, lots of outside walls, plus variable solar load: challenging conditions.

None of the following is strictly a Lennox solution.
I think that a fan would help; not only would it break up air stratification, but also it would spread warm / cool air around to help warm/cool the room and the objects in the room more uniformly. Have you checked the fan settings to see if they can be turned up for more circulation?

Can you add thermal mass to the room? Wrought iron furniture? Concrete floor? 55 gallon drop of water disguised a care bear? Can you put in a reflective shade on the sunny windows to reduce the solar input?

Some folks that I know have a similar setup, and vary the door opening to the rest of the house to help modulate the temperature.

All the best,

Peter

Some folks that I know have a similar setup, and vary the door opening to the rest of the house to help modulate the temperature.

Thanks, will give that a try.

 

[npalen]

I will try a -1 on the F7 setting. I kind of gave up on the idea of trying different adjustments after thinking more about the "stratification" associated with the F7 description thinking that it was futile.
Just getting into parameter adjustment mode is quite an undertaking with shutting down, pulling batteries out of the remote etc.

I did try the -1 setting parameter F7 but to no avail. At this point I'm thinking that this parameter, which is defined as a stratification adjustment, simply compensates the temp sensor depending on how high on the wall the unit is mounted. For instance, the setting for accurate temp sensing would be much different if the inside unit was mounted fifteen feet versus six feet above the floor where it would be sensing the cooler air.

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At this point I'm thinking that a $100 investment in this smart controller is worth a try. My concern is starting and stopping the compressor to achieve, say, plus or minus one degree of temp control.
Perhaps the Cielo does a better job of modulating the compressor output. Don't know, probably just have to try it. The current level of comfort can only be achieved by constantly changing the set temp.

 

[LD1]

I did try the -1 setting parameter F7 but to no avail. At this point I'm thinking that this parameter, which is defined as a stratification adjustment, simply compensates the temp sensor depending on how high on the wall the unit is mounted. For instance, the setting for accurate temp sensing would be much different if the inside unit was mounted fifteen feet versus six feet above the floor where it would be sensing the cooler air.

Cielo Breez Plus

Make any ductless air conditioner smart with Cielo Breez Plus. Offers next-gen features including scheduling, geofencing, air filter status & more.

www.cielowigle.com

At this point I'm thinking that a $100 investment in this smart controller is worth a try. My concern is starting and stopping the compressor to achieve, say, plus or minus one degree of temp control.
Perhaps the Cielo does a better job of modulating the compressor output. Don't know, probably just have to try it. The current level of comfort can only be achieved by constantly changing the set temp.

I was thinking the same thing when I posted ....but lacking another setting it was worth a try.

You are getting a 5 degree "swing". That's not really acceptable with any HVAC system IMO.

The term "offset" as with your F7 function....I think you have verified just offsets the sensor to compensate for placement. But does nothing for on/off swings.

I know next to nothing about newer mini-split stuff. But on most all good t-stats that work in conjunction with a typical HVAC system....have the ability to both offset (think of it in terms of calibrating the t-stats) as well as being able to adjust the on/off temp swings.

 

[npalen]

Would like to thank all who have responded to this thread. It's just awesome reaching out to all the knowledge "out there" and receiving all the valuable feedback.

 

[bb770]

A quick glance through the responses, no one asked if the unit is mounted on an outside wall. The unit temp sensor is mounted on top of the unit,in the return grille. This is why the fan runs slowly all the time, to put air across the sensor. If the lineset goes out the back of the unit to the outside,make sure the installers sealed the hole behind the unit.It will pull outside air in and influence the temp sensor.

 

[npalen]

A quick glance through the responses, no one asked if the unit is mounted on an outside wall. The unit temp sensor is mounted on top of the unit,in the return grille. This is why the fan runs slowly all the time, to put air across the sensor. If the lineset goes out the back of the unit to the outside,make sure the installers sealed the hole behind the unit.It will pull outside air in and influence the temp sensor.

The unit is mounted to an inside wall but your point is well taken.

 

[Sigarms]

Was the contractor able to make an schedueled appointment to call factory support, and has the issue been taken care of?

 

[npalen]

Was the contractor able to make an schedueled appointment to call factory support, and has the issue been taken care of?

I have not asked the contractor to contact Lennox as I am certain, at this point, that the remote controller provided with the minisplit simply does not have the capability needed.

I purchased the Cielo smart controller and am now able to control the minisplit within as little as one degree (+-0.5 degrees) using the "comfy" setting. This mode allows you to tell the minisplit what to do when the temp drops below the setting as well as when it goes above the setting. I currently have it set to go into low fan when dropping below set point and cool on low fan when going above the set point. Seems to work flawlessly.

Some of the minisplit brands are supplying the Cielo with their product. Lennox needs to get with the program!

Cielo Breez Plus

Make any ductless air conditioner smart with Cielo Breez Plus. Offers next-gen features including scheduling, geofencing, air filter status & more.

www.cielowigle.com

 

[Sigarms]

Trane, American Standard, Lennox, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Tempstar, Heil
Rheem, Ruud, Keeprite, AircoAir, York, Coleman, LuxAir and a host of other sublines of unitary split HVAC product sold in the United States does not make their own ductless mini split system.

As mentioned, Lennox the last I heard was using Media (sp?) and that was only after so many contractors complained about the previous manufacturer being Gree (sp?). Ironcially enough, all the York residential mini split stuff is made now by Gree (who lennox dumped).

At the end of the day, your installing HVAC contractor is the person responsible for making the job right because that's the assumption when you pay them to do the job. Apparently they did not do that.

That said, it's nice to know the problem has apparently been resolved at least by yourself!

Personally, never had to use a 3rd party controller except for Mitsubishi made by Honeywell, but that was also approved by Mitsubishi. I can tell you Daikin, Fujitsu and Mitsubishi don't approve of 3rd party contollers, some good reasons, some not so good.

 

[npalen]

Trane, American Standard, Lennox, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Tempstar, Heil
Rheem, Ruud, Keeprite, AircoAir, York, Coleman, LuxAir and a host of other sublines of unitary split HVAC product sold in the United States does not make their own ductless mini split system.

As mentioned, Lennox the last I heard was using Media (sp?) and that was only after so many contractors complained about the previous manufacturer being Gree (sp?). Ironcially enough, all the York residential mini split stuff is made now by Gree (who lennox dumped).

At the end of the day, your installing HVAC contractor is the person responsible for making the job right because that's the assumption when you pay them to do the job. Apparently they did not do that.

That said, it's nice to know the problem has apparently been resolved at least by yourself!

Personally, never had to use a 3rd party controller except for Mitsubishi made by Honeywell, but that was also approved by Mitsubishi. I can tell you Daikin, Fujitsu and Mitsubishi don't approve of 3rd party contollers, some good reasons, some not so good.

At the end of the day, your installing HVAC contractor is the person responsible for making the job right because that's the assumption when you pay them to do the job. Apparently they did not do that.

I don't feel like the contractor made it "wrong" but rather installed the Lennox in good faith.
I'm just not one to ask another to pay for something that I don't feel he is obligated to pay for. Lennox should pay if anyone should but good luck with that.

Again, I very much appreciate all the feedback!

 

[Sigarms]

At the end of the day, your installing HVAC contractor is the person responsible for making the job right because that's the assumption when you pay them to do the job. Apparently they did not do that.

I don't feel like the contractor made it "wrong" but rather installed the Lennox in good faith.
I'm just not one to ask another to pay for something that I don't feel he is obligated to pay for. Lennox should pay if anyone should but good luck with that.

Again, I very much appreciate all the feedback!

I'm not a lennox fan for various reasons, but don't hold Lennox accountable for not paying you, because they should IMO if they did not resolve the issue or have an answer as to why the problem was occuring. Something like that takes time and effort on the contractors end to follow through. Been there done that for the contractor on my end, believe me.

At the end of the day, there is only 3rd party controller for a ductless mini split manufacturer that is basically a honeywell t-stat that was approved through the actual manufacturer of the mini split.

I get a phone call with an issue, and if I hear you have that t-stat on the wall that wasn't approved by the manufacturer, as long as you paid for it and are happy, great, saves me a trip and my problem is gone and it becomes yours in the future.

That said, if it works great and solved your problem, the contractor should take it up with Lennox, and then Lennox with Media (or whoever they are using for a private lable brand for mini splits) and they should look at it and see why it solved the problem (common sense).

I've found the Japanesse more **** retentive than myself. Not the case with the Chinese for whatever reason (you'd think if you're an engineer, it wouldn't matter what country you're from, go figure).

I sincerely wish most homeowners were like you!