Anti-Scalp Roller Mod's?

[RET]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

I may have to inquire at another company. The folks I emailed yesterday (check a few posts up) have not responded. Really ticks me off when I e-mail a company, beg them to take my $$, and they won't even give me the courtesy of a response! Seems like that has happened a lot lately. Is this a problem with anybody else? Ever find folks who just don't want your $$, despite the ton of $$ they are spending for their fancy websites with little sayings like 'e-mail us today...we're eager to help!'.

 

[JWE]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

I agree that the wheels are a poor design. My property is on a hillside with a lot of angulations and I was really worried about scalping and uneven cut when I bought my BX. However, I feel that my 60 MMM delivers a fine cut. Maybe I just don't have a picky eye!

John

 

[BXMMCC]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

"Also, not sure about the use of polyurethan tread. I need to do some more research to zone in on the proper elastomer for this application. "
Skateboards and in-line skates use polyurethane wheels. They both take a beating on concrete and blacktop and hold up very well, so on grass it should work OK. Also, I had a floating dock in tidal water that had polyurethane rollers between the dock and the pilings. Used to change out the original rubber annually, but the poly still looked unworn after three years.

 

[RET]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

bxmmcc,
that statement was a case where my fingers typed one thing and my brain was thinking of something else. my brain was trying to say that I was leaning toward one of the polyurethane compounds, but was not sure if that was the 'optimum' choice. PU (acronym for polyurethane in the chem. industry) has a wide range of hardnesses. The websites list several durometer (measure of hardness) ratings of the various plastics they use. Can be almost as soft as foam, or as nearly as hard as steel. As always, there's tradeoffs for every choice and I was attempting to admit my ignorance of all the possibilities.
I even screwed up the price of the wheels in that letter to the wheel website. I just ordered some new ones recently from Tractorsmart.com for ~$5.50 or so each...not the $8+ I mentioned earlier.
RET

 

[theboman]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( RET
If you raise the wheels to the recommended height, they essentially do nothing. If they are set a little lower the cutting performance is greatly increased.

Greg )</font>

I still don't understand. The MMM floats with the tractor. If an anti-scalp wheel hits the ground it raises the mower deck thus making the grass higher on one side and lower on the other.

From the hundreds of earlier posts the BX is supposed to have a better cut than the MMM on the B7500 etc since the those decks roll on the ground instead of suspending from the tractor.

It's just not making any sense to me, but then again I'm not the smartest person in the world, just one of the better looking ones.

 

[Junkman]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I still don't understand. The MMM floats with the tractor. If an anti-scalp wheel hits the ground it raises the mower deck thus making the grass higher on one side and lower on the other.

From the hundreds of earlier posts the BX is supposed to have a better cut than the MMM on the B7500 etc since the those decks roll on the ground instead of suspending from the tractor.

It's just not making any sense to me, but then again I'm not the smartest person in the world, just one of the better looking ones. )</font>

OK........ I am going to try to help you!! People that are creative and own BX machines are particular fussy about how things work and the quality of the work that is accomplished by the use of the said machine. For this reason and this reason only, we are always trying to re invent the wheel. Not only are we the smartest people in the world, we are the best looking!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[equipman]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

Hootie
Are you sure that your deck is level? We have only seen trouble with one of our BX's not mowing level and that turned out to be a problem with the tires believe it or not. The deck is a little trouble to level, but keep measuring the height of the blades in the front, side and rear positions. Check tire pressure also. Hope this helps.
Lewis

 

[RET]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

Ditto what Junkman said. I am pretty darn handsome if I have to say so myself. The balding scalp and beer belly just adds to my atractiveness.

1st, let me say that the BX 60" deck is great. Very clean cut overall.
2nd, my deck is within 0.00001" of being level. Like I said earlier, I'm picky. I guarantee it. (that's easy since ya'll can't drop by with a ruler to call me on this!). On level ground, I get perfectly even cuts.
Here's what I'm trying to explain:
With wheel set relatively high, when you hit a pothole the deck will temporarily dip on one side before the wheel catches it This results in a section that is cut lower on one side of the swath than the previous pass beside it. With wheels set lower, the deck can't dip or tilt to the side as far before the wheel catches it...thus less 'undercut'. {If my left front tire rolls into a hole, I don't want my deck to go down with it.}
What about bumps that are high, such as roots and such? Well, with the wheel set low, it WILL tend to push the deck up and, for an instant, result in a 'high cut'. But, as soon as the deck wheel rolls off of the hump/bump/root, and the deck returns to it normal elevation, straddling the bump, the back 1/2 of the deck will ensure that the 'high cut' is sheared down to the intended level. 'High cuts' are correctable. 'Low cuts' are a done deal 'til next mowing session.

By the way, gotta apologize for being down on castercity.com. The OWNER just called me and we spent 30 min. discussing my 'pet project'. He really appreciated the 'free advertising' he got by mentioning his site here and wants to help solve the issue (and spread the word about his company too). He is working me up some options/prices right now and will fax to me within next hour or two. He retired at age 50, got bored, and decided to start up this company as a 'hobby' to keep his brian engaged...he's 61 now. He loves working on little 'brain teasers' like this just for fun. He's teaching me a bunch of cool stuff too about what are good/bad/ugly choices for this application. Will share his suggestions when I get them via fax.

As always, handsome and (getting) Smart, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
roger

 

[RET]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

Just ordered 4 anti-scalp wheels from Castercity.com to test.
There was no pic on their website, so I had to go by the owner's description over the phone. Owen (the owner) had consulted with his engineers and pondered all morning over the best choice he could recommend. What I ended up with is what he calls a 'canvas' wheel. That makes me think of those trailing wheels on a rear mount mower. Owen will be installing brass hat bushings (uhhh, Owen said the proper term in this application is 'bearing', not 'bushing' (?)). After brass bearing installation, I will have a 3/4" dia hole remaining. Since the OEM axle is 5/8", I plan to go to McMaster.com and get a 3/4" axle with a grease zerk in the middle of the head (couple of bucks apiece).
Owen made me promise to keep him posted on how they perform this spring/summer. If they do not work out, he said he would work with me at little/no cost to try something else.
He's excited about making this work.
I'll post pics when the wheels arrive.
By the way...they cost $15 each vs. $5-6 for OEM. So, they need to last ~3x as long as OEM to break even on parts cost.
roger

 

[Henro]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

RET,

While we are waiting for those wheels to arrive...let's take a look at the mowing situation again. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You are trying to get a perfect cut on a rough surface by your own description. So the question is, should any mower without some kind of exotic self-leveling, automatic elevation stabilizing system be expected to do what you are asking? Personally, I doubt it.

Let’s look at your example of the pothole in an otherwise smooth lawn [my simplification, you have lots of them].

Take a MMM mower that rides on the ground on its own wheels. It is essentially just dragged along by the tractor, with the tractor supplying the power to turn the cutting blades. The tractor falls into the pothole, the mower rides on the surface. But when the mower wheel falls in the pothole, the mower itself drops (at that corner) about the same depth as the pothole is deep. And the mower jumps right back up that same amount when the wheel comes out of the pothole.

A suspended deck, moves up and down with the tractor, but since the edge of the deck is a greater distance from the tractor wheels [farther than the MMM that rides on its own wheels is], the deck edge does not drop as far downward, as the ground-supported deck would, for the same size pothole.

The tractor frame is like a lever, and the deck is at the midpoint. The midpoint of the lever moves half the distance as the end, if the lever pivots at the other end. When the front wheel drops in a hole, the tractor essentially pivots on the rear axle. So it looks like a suspended deck should average out the roughness of the cut, as compared to a mower that rides on the ground on its own wheels [which are closer together than the tractor’s wheels]. For this reason a suspended MMM deck should provide a smoother cut on rough ground than one that rides on its own wheels.

So now what role do the anti-scalp wheels play on a suspended deck? I am having a problem expecting them do anything other than what they are designed to do. That is, in an extreme situation they keep the mower from digging in. I don’t see them as being there to turn the suspended deck into a dual function suspended/ground-riding deck. If this is true, then the anti-scalp wheels should be as high as possible, and only contact the ground in extreme situations.

Like I mentioned above I am very interested in your project and look forward to the continuing reports of your progress. Just thought it might be fun to analyze the situation a bit while you are waiting for those wheels from castercity.com.

As I am thinking through this, I am leaning towards the conclusion that the real solution to the problem of a good, even cut on your rough lawn is for you to spend some time leveling the uneven surface you are mowing. I doubt that any improvement you come up with to make the anti-scalp wheels more bulletproof will result in a better cut of the lawn. And I am not sure you really want them to be hitting the ground all the time. If they are doing this you are forcing them to perform the much heavier duty service of a ground-contact-mower wheel. This is not what they were designed to do.

I don’t want to sound like I am saying that the wheels don’t need any improvement. I do believe they should have bearings and grease fittings. These are mower decks that cost more than 20 HP garden tractors (which come with mower decks attached) from Sears! They should be top notch, high quality product in all respects. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bottom line? Sounds like what you are cutting really requires something that is somewhere in between a brush hog and finish mower! You may be using your finish mower in a service situation that it was not designed for. In other words, you may actually be abusing it, and seeing the results of that abuse. The root problem may not be the fact that the wheels have failed.

Hey, I’ve done similar thing at times too /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif, so I am not being critical, just trying to state a possible fact. I don’t know how hard you are working that MMM. I am just going by what I think I heard you say.

Like everyone else, I look forward to hearing your coming report on the wheels from castercity.com. Should be a very positive improvement for all users. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[GregW]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

Henro,
I will say from my experience if I lower the wheels down to where they're constantly turning on the grass without carrying a substantial load of the mower deck my cut quality is improved by in my opinion a good amount. In this turning on the grass setup I find that I can mow the lawn considerably lower than I would be able to if the wheels we set up as to not turn.
I would like to be able to adjust the wheels to be in light contact, but rotating in order to mow lower without scalping, I feel that I if mow for very long with the wheels constantly turning it will cause them to wear out in short order.

Greg

 

[JWE]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

I think that the "bottom line" is that when you adjust the deck and wheels to the Kubota specifications, the wheels make frequent contact with the ground. The contact causes the wheels to wear out prematurely which points directly to a design flaw. The wheels should have bearings that can be lubricated because they are going to turn when adjusted properly.

In my case I have the wheels adjusted higher than Kubota recommends. That is the only way that I can keep the wheels from turning continually. I am very satisfied with the quality of cut with the wheels in the higher than spec. position. However, I have compared the cut with the wheels adjusted to spec. and the wheels set higher. The cut is slightly better with the wheels in the spec. position.

I played with the settings of those stupid wheels /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif all summer long. The conclusion I drew is that the wheels will turn (and wear out) if you adjust the deck to Kubota specs. I think bearings will solve the problem. I also agree with Henro that if your lawn has a lot of holes and mounds there is no way to obtain an even cut without leveling the turf.

 

[RET]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

Henro, JWE, Greg, Others,
Henro- Still pondering your explanation of levers and see-saw's. I was going through that thought process yesterday. I don't disagree with anything you said. Suspended mower should always give better cut that one that is rolling on the ground.
Greg and JWE sum it up pretty good. I don't won't the wheels on the ground....just want them brushing through the grass. And my grass is THICK. It is Centipede turf grass...other southerners here can attest to its thickness compared, say, to a Kentucky Bluegrass or similar. So thick that when I go out in the yard to hit some golf balls, it's like hitting out of thick rough...even right after mowing. This MAY be part of my problem, even though wheels are currently at 'factory setting'.

The one thing we can all agree on is that the wheels are cheap. I figure that if I have a choice of a $15 wheel that I don't have to worry about for years vs. a $5 wheel that has to be replaced at some frequency, I'll take the $15 wheel. Not talking about much money difference here.

Kinda like the ongoing argument about dino vs synthetic oil in compact tractors. Doesn't really make a difference $$ wise when you look at the overall family budget. Comes down to what makes you feel good.

Yes....root problem is that my yard is rough and I need to work on getting it leveled. Back in the fall, I ordered six 6-yd loads of dirt from a local driver..just enough to fill in some of the worst spots. He never showed up. Called him again and he promised to be out that week. Never showed up. By the time I gave up on him, other honey-do's had moved up the priority list and then wet weather set in...now I have to wait 'til late spring when the ground will finally firm up again.
Have a good one ya'll!
roger

 

[Charliebrn]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

Roger,
IF it appears the new caster/bearing combination is going to work the next time you talk to the owner, tell him to put together a kit, and tell him I want it, for one. I've solved the problem by pulling the casters off, cleaning and greasing (Amsoil synthetic) them about every 3rd mow. I haven't worn them out in 4 seasons, but I have them set one notch higher than recommended and would like to have a better solution. It'd even be better if the casters had a grease zirc. Anyhow, I'll take a kit..... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[RET]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

charliebrn,
putting a package together is what I plan to do.
Wheels should be here early next week. Once I get them in hand and check some dimensions that the owner didn't have handy yesterday, I will go to McMaster.com or equivelent and order new axles (remember, new wheel requires 3/4" axles instead of OEM ~5/8"). I may have to install some spacer washers or such depending on the fit. So, when I have all the pieces together, I'll take pics and share part numbers.
r

 

[RET]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

charliebrn...forgot to mention...the wheels I'm getting do not have grease fittings, but I plan to buy axles that have a grease fitting in the head of the bolt.

Question to all: the axles on McMaster.com do not list the grade of steel. Does anybody know where else I might find axles? Would like to spend $0.50 extra and get grade 8.

 

[jpr62902]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

I think I just figured out what PhD stands for .....

P rofessor h enro, D octor of tractors ... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[gsganzer]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

I think "PhD" stands for Post Hole Digger. I told my neighbor that one day when we were digging in some corner poles. He has a PhD in genetics, and at the time, had to agree with me.

 

[jpr62902]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

They make post hole diggers for genetics?

 

[44trxfun]

Re: Anti-Scalp Roller Mod\'s?

OK, gotta admit, I didn't read through this whole thread. But, one of the reasons I was given for the MF 2325 60" mmm being more expensive than the similar sized Kub mower was that the MF's rollers were designed to have the weight of the mower on them all the time, rather than just in "anti-scalp" mode. I ran it that way for three months last season (over some rough ground) and didn't have a problem. Maybe you could work with a MF dealer and swap the rollers??? (Unfortunately, I don't have the part number for the rollers.)