Another barn build

[hayden]

Actually it will be an equipment building to get all my treasures (junk, as my wife calls it) inside. Everything is still subject to change since I'm just getting started, but the current plan is for a steel building, probably from Worldwide Steel Buildings, 30' x 60', organized as five 12' wide bays with roll up doors. It will sit on frost walls and a slab as required by local practice and the structural needs of the building. It will be sited next to and parallel to an existing 48 x 60 barn that includes storage but is also my shop and office. The existing building is heated, but the new one will be cold and only have electricity for lighting and light power tools. No insulation, no water, just a protective shell. But I want it to be tight so mice can't get in. I am SOOO sick of mice taking up residence in my equipment, making a mess, and stinking it up to high heaven. So seams, corners, and doors all need to close without gaps. This has been a bit of a challenge with the existing building, almost exclusively around the overhead doors.

The toughest part is that I need to dig the building into a sloped grade. Flat space is a rarity where I am, and I want to keep the two buildings close together since I expect to be back and forth between them frequently It also makes getting power to it easier, plus road access, snow removal, etc. The digging part isn't too bad, but the rock and ledge is difficult. The long side of the building where the doors are will face the existing building and be at the same grade, and the opposite side will be about 5-6' below grade. This will make the concrete walls stepped, and will complicate the steel structure a bit, but so far Worldwide says they can do it.

At this point I'm just doing site work. I mostly wanted to convince myself that it can be excavated, which comes down to finding out how much rock and ledge is in the way and what it will take to remove it. Blasting is a possibility, but I'd like to avoid it.

The first step was clearing trees and brush, and digging a couple of test trenches to get a sense of how much soil there is before hitting rock. There is a lot of rock, but I concluded it was worth proceeding. You can see the existing building, and the new building will be at about the same grade. So you can get a sense of how much will be dug in. The piles of snow are remnant from snow blowing, and have all sorts of equipment buried in them, so I can't just plow them out of the way.

Stripping back the soil and lose rocks, you can start to get a sense of the slope that needs to go away.

Lots of rocks are coming out, along with some soil. But mostly rocks. As a size reference, the bucket is 3' wide and 3' high.

Everything is getting hauled out one dump trailer at a time.

This is one of several bigger rocks that I have dragged out. It's a bit hard to tell because of the dirt and snow around it as I drag it one end at a time, a foot at a time, off to it's new home. It's between 15 and 20 feet long, ave 2 feet thick, and ave 4 feet wide. My excavator struggled every step of the way.

 

[hayden]

After getting as much soil and rock out with the excavator bucket, it was time to start breaking up the remaining rock. In a few cases there were more of the giant rocks that I could wiggle with the excavator, but couldn't move more than that. For them the goal was to break them into smaller sizes so they could be moved. For others, it seemed like ledge that needs to be chipped away. And it's frequently hard to tell the difference. The really big rocks initially all seem like ledge, but after a while there is often movement of the whole thing, at which point you know it's a discrete rock than can be removed and it just becomes a matter of how to get it out. A 20 ton excavator sure would be nice for this, but alas, 8 tons will have to do.

And here is the site with a lot more rock removed, and the approximate footprint of the building marked off in red. It's pretty much on grade for the front half of the building, but still sloped up over the back half, with a max of about 2-3' of depth that still needs to be removed. The good news is that although I think it will take a while, I'm confident that I can get this all excavated without having to blast.

Over the week that I was working on this I was also also able to pick various implements and attachments out of the snow piles as they melted down, then flatten out the pile to finish melting off faster. In the last pictures they have finally all been moved elsewhere.

What I don't yet know is how much I will need to continue to excavate down for footings and frost walls, vs when I can stop and pour concrete over the ledge. If anyone has any experience with this I'm all ears. We have a deep frost line so the norm for buildings is a footing 3-4ft down, then a frost wall up to above grade. When we built the existing barn there were a number of areas where the footings and walls came up and over ledge making them much less than 4' deep, and none of that has been an issue after about 18 years.

Then in most cases the floor is poured inside the frost walls, but I have also occasionally seen it poured over the top of the frost walls. Since my frost walls will be much higher than the floor on three sides, I expect the only place we will pour over the walls is for the overhead door openings, but it might make sense to do it across the whole front of the building. I'll need to work all this out between the concrete guy and the building fabricator.

One thing I'd love to get some feedback on is the amount of space that I'm leaving between the two buildings. Right now I'm planning on 40' which I think provides comfortable turning space for getting into and out of the new bays that are 30' deep. More would probably be better, but it's all rock excavation and breaking to do that. It's tempting to consider narrowing the corridor to 35', but I don't think it will save me much work over what I have already done, and is something I will probably regret in the future. So for now 40' seems to be the magic number.

Any advice and experience is welcome....

 

[EddieWalker]

This is going to be a fun project to watch!!!! Everything about your land is totally different then where I live, and it's fun to see all the differences. Snow is one thing I don't have to deal with, but all those rocks is another. It's all red clay here, and we have to truck rock in from Oklahoma and Arkansas!!!

Do you save the rocks for landscaping?

 

[hayden]

This is going to be a fun project to watch!!!! Everything about your land is totally different then where I live, and it's fun to see all the differences. Snow is one thing I don't have to deal with, but all those rocks is another. It's all red clay here, and we have to truck rock in from Oklahoma and Arkansas!!!

Do you save the rocks for landscaping?

New England is cris-crossed with stone walls for a reason

Some I use to build walls. The boundary between the existing barn yard and where the new building will start (where I had my implements lined up in the snow piles) was a stone wall. Once the building is in place I will rebuild where the former wall intersects the new building. But that will be a small quantity. Most I am using as fill to expand another area of the barn yard. And some may just get left in the woods, or used for fill elsewhere. Moving it anywhere is very time consuming because I’m limited to a dump trailer.

My reaction is very similar when I see other builds in other parts of the country. Just digging down without hitting rocks is a foreign concept to me. I seldom can get down more than 3” without hitting bedrock, and that was my fear in this location. But enough of it is coming out that I’m confident I’ll be able to make it work using my excavator and hammer.

I also see builds that are just slabs on sand or gravel with the slab thickened up at load bearing points. That wouldn’t last here with freeze/thaw heaving. You have to go down below the frost line with footings, then build up to above ground level. That’s the only way to keep the building from moving. It’s an unfortunate time and dollar adder.

 

[EddieWalker]

All we need is a 12 inch deep footing to support a house. What's really crazy is that most houses never had the soil under it compacted. They just dump a load of red clay, spread it out so it's level, and start setting forms. I think your way of building is a lot better, but I like how much cheaper it is here to build.

It looks like you have a good collection of equipment to get it done. Not many people have a jackhammer for their excavator!!!!!

 

[hayden]

All we need is a 12 inch deep footing to support a house. What's really crazy is that most houses never had the soil under it compacted. They just dump a load of red clay, spread it out so it's level, and start setting forms. I think your way of building is a lot better, but I like how much cheaper it is here to build.

It looks like you have a good collection of equipment to get it done. Not many people have a jackhammer for their excavator!!!!!

If the buildings hold up as built in your area, then that’s what matters, right?

As for the hammer, I bought that a few years ago for a project, and have now used it many times since. Around here it’s a bit like having a trenching bucket . And for this project I got a 36” bucket for the bigger excavator to supplement the original 24”. It makes a huge difference when there is a lot of material to move. And all of it pays for itself quickly by not having to hire someone. Or at least that’s how I justify it.

I’m now mostly in planning and design mode to make foundation and building plans so I can finalize pricing, get a concrete guy lined up, and get the building ordered. With the stepped foundation and resulting irregular sided building, there are a lot of details to work out.

 

[hayden]

For anyone who has built a steel building on a concrete slab, how mouse proof is it, and what are the weak spots? With stick frame I have found garage door lower edge and corners to be the most challenging. I have never used roll up doors before so don’t know if they are easier or harder to get a tight seal.

 

[EddieWalker]

I haven't built one, but I've worked on a few and I've seen a few differences. The ones I like have a brick ledge on the foundation that they run the siding down to so there is no opening for anything to get up through the panels. I've also seen where it's wide open and anything that can fit in there, can get into the building. Snakes worry me more then mice!!!

I have a roll up door on my shop and insulated garage panels for my garage. When I build my "big" shop, I'm going to do the garage door panels. I think you get a lot better seal, and the insulation on the door makes it even better.

For me, the goal is to keep the heat out. Probably the opposite for you.

 

[hayden]

I haven't built one, but I've worked on a few and I've seen a few differences. The ones I like have a brick ledge on the foundation that they run the siding down to so there is no opening for anything to get up through the panels. I've also seen where it's wide open and anything that can fit in there, can get into the building. Snakes worry me more then mice!!!

I have a roll up door on my shop and insulated garage panels for my garage. When I build my "big" shop, I'm going to do the garage door panels. I think you get a lot better seal, and the insulation on the door makes it even better.

For me, the goal is to keep the heat out. Probably the opposite for you.

The Worldwide building do something that sounds similar to the brick ledge, but out of steel. It’s basically a Z shape like preformed flashing that hangs over the edge of the slab and the side panels sit tight against the horizontal part of the Z overhang. Not sure that description is very clear.

I have panel overhead doors on my current building, and I think have them sealing well now, though it took a bit of creative work to do it. What I don’t like is the headroom lost to the tracks and door when it’s open. The steel roof trusses provide a cathedral ceiling that I’d like to be able to use.

Have you ever seen panel garage door tracks that continue to go up before turning horizontal, rather than turning horizontal right away? I don’t mind having more limited height passing through the doorway, but I’d like to have max possible height once inside. This is why I have been thinking about roll up doors since they seem to accomplish that.

 

[EddieWalker]

I've seen pictures of it, but never in person. Usually, the opening for the door is as big as they can get it. The thickness of the header seems to be the perfect space for the door to make its turn to the ceiling.

The one picture that I'm thinking of, they did a double 45 from the top of the door, and then at the ceiling. It was so unique that I remember it.

 

[civilian]

Eddie, I think there have been some panel style garage doors on other TBN threads showing them following the cathedral ceiling. Jon

 

[Carl_NH]

Yep - in EDT66SS Barndominium - appears that his doors follow the trusses Barndominium/Shop or "real" House?

Nice build Hayden - we have similar ground

 

[EddieWalker]

Not having any rock here, I'm jealous of how nice those boulders look in your landscaping. If I ever finish everything on my place, boulders will be one of those things I spend the money on just because I like them!!

 

[dodge man]

Let me know if you figure out the mouse proof thing. I can’t keep them out of my shop or house. Your correct on the corner of the garage overhead doors as being a spot they like to chew through.

 

[hayden]

Not having any rock here, I'm jealous of how nice those boulders look in your landscaping. If I ever finish everything on my place, boulders will be one of those things I spend the money on just because I like them!!

The stones do make for nice walls. My wife and I built this retaining wall last fall, all from stone that was within a couple hundred feet of the house.

 

[hayden]

I've seen pictures of it, but never in person. Usually, the opening for the door is as big as they can get it. The thickness of the header seems to be the perfect space for the door to make its turn to the ceiling.

The one picture that I'm thinking of, they did a double 45 from the top of the door, and then at the ceiling. It was so unique that I remember it.

That’s the sort of thing that could work.

 

[hayden]

I've been back on this project for the past month and have made a bunch of progress, though it's been very slow. Getting all the rock out of the excavation site has been a real challenge. There are days when I think I'll make it, and days when I think I'll be forced to move the building.

It's really hard to capture it in pictures, but here's a try. In the picture below I have highlighted a paint mark showing my target elevation for excavation. You can see where I have been busting out rock to reach that grade, and to push it back towards the rear of the building site. The whole area to the left is still 2-3' high, and is pretty much solid granite. I'm continually generating piles of rocks like the one on the right. For reference, from the red mark up to the ground level is about 8'

This next pictures tries to show what the rock formations are like. The horizontal line is the target grade, and I have circled two veins of granite that slope up and towards the back of the site. These are solid granite, however if you dig around them enough, they are separable chunks - just gigantic in size. I have circled two veins/chunks, but there are actually 4 or 5, each overlapping the next. So it's a bit like a game of pickup sticks to figure out what sections are pinned in my other sections, and what order they need to be removed in to get it all out.

I realized that anywhere it's possible to dislodge and remove a section whole, that's much easier and faster than trying to break it up with the hammer. So removing them is very much like digging out a stump, finding and following the perimeter, and digging out all the material and tentacles that are holding the section in place. This is a much better use of the hammer, and much easier on the hammer. Eventually I'll see the rock move a little bit, and then I know I have it. Here is one of those big ledge sections after I have broken it loose, but before dragging it out of the hole. This one was actually two pieces which is a blessing given their size and weight. This whole section was a solid 20' long. My excavator can lift about 6000 lbs, and it could barely lift one end of the bigger section at a time. So that's probably a 10,000 to 15,000 lbs rock. I have pulled close to a dozen such sections out so far.

Speaking of the hammer, this project has been really rough on it. The vibration and pulsing of the hoses snapped the hose end fitting of the pressure line right off. Not once, but three times. I finally switched to a much higher pressure hose than is required, solely because the fittings are much bigger. Now, after $600 in hoses, it seems to be holding up OK.

I also developed a leak in one of the hard pipes for the aux hydraulics on the excavator. The machine is 7 years old, but just now a pin hole opened up at one of the weld joints, probably because of the vibration and pulsing. That was another $500 for a new pipe.

And granite is very hard on the chisel tools. I completely blunted my original chisel and had to buy a new one. There goes another $700. I checked around a bunch of places to see if anyone could re-point the old one, but nobody would take it on. It's apparently too hard for a milling machine, so the only solution is grinding, and that's a lot of material to removed to repoint it. Maybe someday I'll give it a try, but for now I need to just keep working. Oh, and I just replaced the chisel AGAIN. There goes another $700.

 

[BleedingOrange]

Lots of hard work going on there. Is dynomite an option to be used for a controlled blast, or three ?

 

[hayden]

Lots of hard work going on there. Is dynomite an option to be used for a controlled blast, or three ?

It's a last resort. This site is only 40' from another building that is sitting on the same ledge system, so I'm concerned about possible damage to the other building.

Related to this, last week I talked to a local place about renting a bigger excavator with a bigger hammer. It's more expensive than I thought ($6k per week), but the killer is that they require an insurance certificate. I have homeowners insurance, but not any sort of business insurance. I might have been able to find a way around it, but decided it was too much trouble.

 

[EddieWalker]

You are in a battle of wills. You against the rock. It's going to be worth it in the end, but I understand how frustrating it is to battle the land!!!!

Years ago, I was thinking of buy an excavator and an old timer told me to never buy one that had been used for jack hammering. He said that they have been abused more than any other machine, and the reason they are selling it is because it's too worn out to fix.