And I thought the Purolator filter was small.....

   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #41  
Lets say we want to follow a molecule of oil in our engine system. It's basically going to be in 1 of 3 places. Moving through the engine lubricating, sitting in the pan or sitting in the filter. Basically it's spending 1/3 of it's time in the engine. If we remove the filter, now it will either be in the engine or in the pan, thus spending 1/2 of it's time in the engine. Now lets make the pan really small so that our oil molecule is spending most all of it's time in the engine. Now in x amount of time if we add the filter back, as we increase the size of the filter, isn't the oil molecule going to spend more if it's time in the filter and less in the engine or pan? I know this is over simplified and we're definitely splitting hairs but I just think if we can use a smaller filter and still have proper filtration, wouldn't more oil be spending more of it's time lubricating the engine? And that's all I'm gonna say about that! :)

This does not make much sense? I see your point but even if you have a 2qt filter you still have the same amount of oil in the system to keep the engine full of oil as well as the pan. More oil equals each molecule will spend less time in the engine giving the oil in the system a longer life and capable of staying cooler and having more addatives.
If your theory made sense why would diesel engines hold 2-3 gallons of oil, why not just 5 qts so those oil molecules be in the engine longer than in the filter or pan?
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #42  
For reference, from left to right, 2010 Civic filter, 1990 Civic Filter, 2004 F350 V-10 filter. IMG_4357.jpg
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #43  
This does not make much sense? I see your point but even if you have a 2qt filter you still have the same amount of oil in the system to keep the engine full of oil as well as the pan. More oil equals each molecule will spend less time in the engine giving the oil in the system a longer life and capable of staying cooler and having more addatives.
If your theory made sense why would diesel engines hold 2-3 gallons of oil, why not just 5 qts so those oil molecules be in the engine longer than in the filter or pan?

My tractor's 1.5 liter diesel engine holds 4.7 qts. My car's 1.8 liter gas engine holds 4.2 qts. The only suggestion for the car's oil is if you want to go 10,000 miles between changes, use synthetic. The oil filters on both are about the same size.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #44  
For reference, from left to right, 2010 Civic filter, 1990 Civic Filter, 2004 F350 V-10 filter.<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=296705"/>

The 2 Civic filters will interchange.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #45  
The 2 Civic filters will interchange.

That's good information. I no longer own that car and still have a couple of those filters left over. Thanks.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #46  
My tractor's 1.5 liter diesel engine holds 4.7 qts. My car's 1.8 liter gas engine holds 4.2 qts. The only suggestion for the car's oil is if you want to go 10,000 miles between changes, use synthetic. The oil filters on both are about the same size.
Your thought process is backward from what it should be. You want the oil molecule to spend more time any place other than the engine. Inside the engine, it is getting molested with heat and friction. Outside the engine it is resting, cooling and recuperating and getting ready for another run. Your thoughts would be like putting a runner to run 90% or the time and rest 10% and he would perform better. That isnt the way it works in human life nor oil life.
Your example of the small engine holding the same amount of oil is not a good one in that 4 quarts of oil is about the minimum amount of oil needed to keep a multicylinder engine functioning. Lawnmowers with single cylinder hold about .8 quart, twin cylinders hold about 1.8 quarts. At some point the amount of oil sort of stabilizes as far as cooling the engine. The larger capacity of most diesel engines is necessary to keep the oil change interval at a longer time. My LS 3.2 L engine requires 9L of oil (2.35 gal). My 5.3L truck engine uses less than 5 quarts including filter capacity.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small.....
  • Thread Starter
#47  
My tractor's 1.5 liter diesel engine holds 4.7 qts. My car's 1.8 liter gas engine holds 4.2 qts. The only suggestion for the car's oil is if you want to go 10,000 miles between changes, use synthetic. The oil filters on both are about the same size.

In terms of engine oil capacity, have a look at some of the higher end European gas motors (ex. BMW) - they typically hold more oil than a similar displacement North American gas motor. One of the reasons they do this is to help extend the oil change interval.

Rgds, D.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #48  
I totally understand what you guys are saying, but....:), as oil quality has improved and you now have an oil that really can tolerate being in the engine 90% of the time and only rest 10% of the time, I don't see the advantage of a larger oil filter over a smaller one if they both offer the same filtration. So in an effort to help out Dave with his post. It's not so much the size of the filter as it is sufficient filtration that should be your concern.
 
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   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small.....
  • Thread Starter
#49  
I totally understand what you guys are saying, but....:), as oil quality has improved and you now have an oil that really can tolerate being in the engine 90% of the time and only rest 10% of the time, I don't see the advantage of a larger oil filter over a smaller one if they both offer the same filtration. So in an effort to help out Dave with his post. It's not so much the size of the filter as it is sufficient filtration that should be your concern.

"Same" filtration - depends how you define that. :)

For a given (specific) type of filter media and for the same fold pattern, a physically larger filter contains more media area, and can therefore trap more contaminants, before it goes into bypass. So, in terms of what I've been on about here, assume Larger = More Media, as that is a more correct way of putting it.

For a guy like me (belt and suspenders type), with all else equal, if I can safely put a larger filter (esp. an "authorized" one) on a vehicle for around the same money as the basic smaller one, then that is what floats my boat.

Yes, oils have improved quite a bit, even in the last 10 years. Some of that gain has been offset by higher specific power outputs, and other factors (ex. DI fuel loading).

Filter media has advanced (proportionally less than oils), but you only get that benefit by buying something other than low end filters.

So, agreed, compared to Olden Times (when I grew up) oil is better, pretty well across the board, and filters can be better - depending what you buy.

So.... why do old timers like me still prefer a larger (all else equal) filter ?

1) Extra insurance, at little or no cost.

2) Oil Change Intervals are pushing out. Sludge and contaminants are expected to accumulate a lot longer in a filter than days past. OCI at 10,000 miles was death to an engine in the past, not uncommon now.

3) Contaminants can fairly easily enter an engine. Unless Used Oil Analysis is routinely done (like is done in heavy commercial service), this can go on for an extended period of time.

Spend time around a commercial service garage - you'll find that many vehicles much more than a few years old have compromised air intake systems. The air filter housing is damaged, not properly seated, clamps are missing, intake snorkels have holes worn through them, etc.

At my buddy's shop, a tow truck (not that old) showed up with NO air filter present.

The relatives car that I'm babysitting, while it had an oil dipstick present, it was not seated in the tube. Honda has a good design (not just one, but actually 2 "O" rings at the base of the dipstick handle), but between declining eyesight, and reduced hand strength, the elderly owner had assumed that the dipstick was seated. So, this dipstick was basically rattling around sitting on the top of the tube as you drove down the road.

BTW, not picking on my elderly relative, as the general maintenance on this car was way higher than the average today.

Point being, in for what normal use (non TBN gearhead owned) passes for amongst the masses, there are many vehicles that have to deal with abnormal amounts of contaminants in the oil system.

And, even for us TBN'ers, it may take "a while" to notice a hole rubbed in an intake snorkel. And, if you don't do your own service, many shops do a butcher job of changing air filters - even as easy a task as that should be.

More media (aka Larger) oil filters appeal to me, as the incremental cost (if any) is negligible, and the increased utility (to me) is quite valuable.

But, I also understand that this is a technology nuance that many people don't recognize, and even more people (outside of TBN) don't care about.

Regular basic Scheduled Maintenance is what matter the most- just getting that done on many machines would be a big step up for most folks (meaning outside of this discussion).

Rgds, D.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #50  
When my Y2K GMC with the 6.0 V8 was new, the recommended Delco oil filter was a PF-59. Sometime around 2005 or 2006, that model was discontinued and replaced with the PF-46, which was only about 2/3rds the length of the PF-59...at no reduction in price. I quit using the Delco filters and began using either K&N or Mobil 1.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #51  
When my Y2K GMC with the 6.0 V8 was new, the recommended Delco oil filter was a PF-59. Sometime around 2005 or 2006, that model was discontinued and replaced with the PF-46, which was only about 2/3rds the length of the PF-59...at no reduction in price. I quit using the Delco filters and began using either K&N or Mobil 1.

I beleive i am correct in this but may not be, i dont claim to be a filter guru. But due to working in a parts store and a shop for breif periods as well as doing maintence on a good range of vehicles over the last 10 years...im pretty sure those filters your talking about cross over to the purolator 14459?

But did you expect price to change? That pf46 is ususlly the same price or within 10 cents of that big ford filter which is ph8a in fram for fl1 in motorcraft.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small.....
  • Thread Starter
#52  
I beleive i am correct in this but may not be, i dont claim to be a filter guru. But due to working in a parts store and a shop for breif periods as well as doing maintence on a good range of vehicles over the last 10 years...im pretty sure those filters your talking about cross over to the purolator 14459?

But did you expect price to change? That pf46 is ususlly the same price or within 10 cents of that big ford filter which is ph8a in fram for fl1 in motorcraft.

Purolator has a reverse lookup (below). With PL14459, the only Chev listing I saw was for 4 Cylinder engines.

Where It Fits

Funny to see where and how this gets used. One Lotus Elan used it. Subaru used it on 6 cylinder engines, an old 3 cylinder of theirs, then it jumps to one of their latest DI motors.

Great link if you need something to read - at least if you are a gearhead. Winter and cabin fever have settled in here in Canada !

To show you how bad it gets, people in Calgary are paying money to meet Kim K. ! I'd have myself committed, before I got to that late-stage of cabin fever !

Rgds, D.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #53  
Kim K? People are dumb enough to pay money to meet her? Just imagine going to the local watering hole during Happy Hour and being able to brag "Guess what, I managed to pay good money to meet (fill in the blank). Yes, there are suckers born every minute.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #54  
Plenty of people will pay to see anyone, you name it. Including our president, no i am using president as a collective term not the current one. Although i DEFINITLY would not pay to meet the current one. And im not talking fundraising dinner things where yes they pay to meet a pres but more so to fund his re election, but im talking events like inagurations!!

So yes there will be plenty of people to meet the "stars" and pay big money esp since so many put these figures in such high regard and do anything they do and buy anything that they (are paid) say they use.

The K's are an attractive bunch of women but wont pay to see them!!
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #55  
i have also been on the purorlator site and seen that as well. Im talking the application look up for a certain part number.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #56  
i have also been on the purorlator site and seen that as well. Im talking the application look up for a certain part number.

Frams site is excellent. All applications and will cross over any brand.

Chris
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #57  
Frams site is excellent. All applications and will cross over any brand.

Chris

Ummm...perhaps you feel the Fram site is excellent but I have long felt the products they produce and market, ESPECIALLY OIL FILTERS, are pure crap.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #58  
Ummm...perhaps you feel the Fram site is excellent but I have long felt the products they produce and market, ESPECIALLY OIL FILTERS, are pure crap.

I also am no filter guru either, but have heard much praise for the xtended guard filters. I have heard on some discussion type sites (even from fram haters) that those filters were in a league of their own compared to other (fram) filters. You can actually feel a quality difference between them and the others. Again, I am no expert and have to rely on overwhelming opinions to make my decisions and have been convinced to use them. They are not cheap, but definitely not the most expensive filters out there. BTW I use those with valvoline synpower with 7-8k intervals. Please educate me if I have been misled. I like them also because they are easy to find, same with the oil... I would probably use royal purple if more readily available.
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #59  
I also am no filter guru either, but have heard much praise for the xtended guard filters. I have heard on some discussion type sites (even from fram haters) that those filters were in a league of their own compared to other (fram) filters. You can actually feel a quality difference between them and the others. Again, I am no expert and have to rely on overwhelming opinions to make my decisions and have been convinced to use them. They are not cheap, but definitely not the most expensive filters out there. BTW I use those with valvoline synpower with 7-8k intervals. Please educate me if I have been misled. I like them also because they are easy to find, same with the oil... I would probably use royal purple if more readily available.

As you know Fram makes 3 grades of filters. The higher level ones are on par with most other quality filters like K&N, Bosch, ect. I do about 100 oil changes a year for nearly 20 years and about half have been with Fram filters. Not a single failure.

Chris
 
   / And I thought the Purolator filter was small..... #60  
As you know Fram makes 3 grades of filters. The higher level ones are on par with most other quality filters like K&N, Bosch, ect. I do about 100 oil changes a year for nearly 20 years and about half have been with Fram filters. Not a single failure.

Chris

I have a cut away Fram and Wix filter I will have to take pics of. I don't think that K&N filters are that hot, they may be made by Fram. Everybody says they have never had a problem with a fram but they may not realize it.
 

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