An Electric Lesson

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 4, 2001

Joe

An electrical generator that you can build which requires only one wire connected to a rod driven into the ground and no fuel (according to the website info) is described at the following website:

http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/freenrg/fieldgen/fieldgen.htm

The site includes plans and diagrams. Construction appears simple, with readily available materials, primarily Tuff-R insulated sheeting. Apparently, the ground rod is a requirement and is part of the generation process. Don't know if this works, haven't tried it.

SHF

s1120 · Aug 4, 2001

After Franklin came a herd of electrical pioneers whose names have become part of our electrical terminology: Carl Volt, Frank Amp, James Watt, Bob Transformer and many others

We can not forget Oliver outlet. With out him we would all be scuffing our feet, and grabbing cords all day. Now we just have to plug in/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

jinman · Aug 4, 2001

Dave, don't believe any of these guys. They've all been eating too many prunes. Anyone with half a brain knows that the power company sends electricty through the primary of a transformer on a post (or a ground transformer) and that the primary of that transformer is in no way connected to the secondary of the transformer which comes to your house. The current in your house (every electron - no matter how energetic) is induced rather than coming from the power company. The "juice" from the power company never gets any closer to your house than the transformer; however, the prune juice flows in directly, carried by this thread. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

JimI

TWINKLE_TOES · Aug 4, 2001

JimI

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif the prune juice flows in directly, carried by this thread. I can appreciate that comment. The transformer primary is ground referenced just like the secondary which feeds your home. Again, no intentional current flows in that ground reference. For example I have underground power to a transformer out in the field. The feeder is a 7500 volt cable that has a single center conductor. The return current for the primary is a heavy braid surrounding the exterior of the cable. It looks like a coaxial cable if you removed the outer insulation, except a lot bigger about 3/4 inch dia. This cable is buried directly in the ground, i.e outer conducter (braid) is in direct contact with the ground. At the transformer this braid is connected to the neutral wire to the house and also to ground at the transformer. None of the induced current that flows in the neutral wire to the house is returned directly through the feeder return (braid). The current that is returned through the primary (braid) is the secondary current reduced by the turn ratio of the transformer 120/7500.

In short the transformer primary is connected to the transformer secondary, no intentional current flows in that connection.

Whew I think I'll have another prune. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Al

jinman · Aug 5, 2001

Okay, Al. I have prune juice running down my chin and I think the flow from the "ground" part of my circuit is about to begin./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

You failed to mention if the secondary of the transformer is center tapped. If so, is it that center tap that is attached to the primary shield/return? I'm truly curious...no joke.

JimI

Billc · Aug 5, 2001

Joe, just read you opening post to this thread. Very funny! Thanks.

Bill Cook

hayden · Aug 5, 2001

In fact, the last year any new electricity was generated was 1937;

That's because in 1937 they switched over to generators powered by electric motors that just plugged into the outlets. It's been running ever since.

Peter

TWINKLE_TOES · Aug 5, 2001

I'm truly curious...no joke.

Truly (a.k.a. jinman)

Yep the transformer on the pole or in your yard is center tapped. The center tap is ran to earth ground @ the transformer and also @ your house. The other two wires to your house are connected to the other terminals of the transformer. Voltage is ~120 volts between the center tap and each leg. The two 120 volt lines are 180 degrees out of phase and hence add to 240 volts between the legs.

Al

PBMAX · Aug 6, 2001

I don't believe they have not generated any new electricity since 1937.What about the energy lost through heat?Such as dryers,condinsers(friges,frezzers,hvac)electric heating elements,stoves portable heaters and so on.Maybe thats what they ment.That since energy only changes form and can't be distroyed theory.I figure you could answer this one better than I.Also some one mentioned not getting shocked by the return line.True for single phase usually.Have been bit when there was a high load and got grounded.You now the difference thing but thats just my luck .Also Got bit by 277v nutruel.It had 50 Floresent lights on it and let me tell you OUCH!Q!!I don't recall the pwr (amp) draw of them but I can tell you every body on the 7th floor new I had just learned something.....Boss came around the corner, You ok? yep..What you do? (told him)he laughed,By the way he says; the nutruel (return)can bight you in 277v system....

I just missed him with my linemans pliers........I was quite PO'd as it was....Funny how getting buzzed makes you angry.I figure it's cause we no better and we do it any way....and feel stupid for it...

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21D

ddl · Aug 6, 2001

I was not getting uppity, I was just responding to your reply, which sounded upity to me, "I don't hafve to time to completely explain it to you"" Your quote. There is two ways to look at this idea. The high school way of electrons moving or by looking at it at the atomic level. Electrons do not move except around the nuclues. Charge from one electron to the next lower enegry electron is what moves. Current is Charge per time not electrons per time. As the charge moves down the wire from electron to electron, the amount of charge decreases, which is way we use substations to step the charge back up to a higher level. The orginal post stated that the electron is passed down the line and back to the generator, which is not true, too many transformers without center tap between the generator and the actual load.

Dan L

ddl · Aug 6, 2001

The only reason you have a potential difference is that you have a difference in energy levels. Charge is what moves in a circuit once a force is applied to a complete circuit. Charge moves from one electron to the next electron pn down the line. By the time the charge completes the circuit path, the amount of charge is at zero energy level, thus the circuit is complete. With the correct equipment, we could even meaure a petential difference between electrons from one atom to the next atom of a conductor, whereas if the electrons moved, the potential difference would not change, which we know it does.

Dan L

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 6, 2001

Dan,

At risk of getting my neck bit, or sounding too stupid--years ago I was taught that electricity was the flow of electrons down a wire. I think I like your story better. The electrons moving down the wire theory always bothered me, sounds too much like fission. Now using your atomic charge theory, can you define volts, watts and amps for me? Obviously, the number of electrons flowing past a given point will no longer apply.

SHF

ddl · Aug 6, 2001

The idea that no new electricity has been produced since when ever is an untrue statement. To believe that you have to beleive that a generator actually produces electrons. What a generator does do is change the energy form from one for to another. Rising the energy level, creating a potential difference between two conductors, thus we have a current flow, not current flowing. Thus if the energy is not used it is lost. Your getting shocked, remember that energy flows from a high potential to a low potential. On a three phase system, the merging current at the ground used to result in zero current, but with switching power supplies, the currents do not ad to zero anymore and you can have high currents on the return or ground line. That is one reason the ground wire is now the same size as the three phase wires. The other comment earlier about a system being three wires, "Hot" "return" and "ground". I bet you that the "return and the "ground" are connected together, thus one wire in real time. Also in three phase systems and a delta connection, you can have a wild leg, in order to have a common wire, but this wire is not common at all and is unbalanced, thus a lot of current in the common. Very dangerous.

Dan L

cowboydoc · Aug 6, 2001

Dan,
Fair enough and yes even with your more detailed post there are still a couple more pages that could be written just about the basics of electricity. That's why I said I didn't have time to write it all out. Didn't really think anyone cared so much. I said that the basic principle I thought we agreed on. Anyway just wanted to apologize if I sounded coarse.

ddl · Aug 6, 2001

Current has always been charge per time. If you read a text book carefully, they say this. Where things got confused is that if you know the charge in a circuit, you can determine the mount of electrons envolved with the charge. You may ask why do we need to know the amount of electrons involved? Well if we know the number of electrons, we can determine the strength of the magnetic field, remember that with an electron we have electron spin, each electron spinning around its axis producing a magnetic lines of force. As the charge increases in a circuit, the number of electrons involved increases and the magnetic field increases. If you look at all the equations that you mentioned, none of them use the number of electrons, just charge, voltage and resistance and time. What I really enjoy is hearing some one saying the current is fllowing. The question I have is that current is a velocity, charge/seconds, the question I ask is how does a velocity travel. As an example a car moves down the road at 60 miles/hour, a velocity. The 60 miles/hour is not moving down the road. Thus how can current be flowing which means moving, there is a difference between current flow and current flowing, I have never seen a text book that says current is flowing. One poster stated getting shocked from a ground wire. Remember that there is a potential difference from one electron to the next aomes electrons as we travel down the wire, not the electron. If the ground is not a proper ground, bad connection, we can have ground loops, which are potential differences on the ground wire, thus we can get shocked.

Dan L

ddl · Aug 6, 2001

no apology needed, I like to read your reponds to many subjects and have learn alot, just like most other posts. I have never found a dumb response only "interesting" responses. The one question I do have is do you live in IOWA or in the Northwest? If in Iowa, where?

Dan L

P.S. I wish every one registered on this group would put their job function or what it was, it halps in understanding their comments. You do and I did and others, wish all did.

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 6, 2001

Dan,

Actually, I think where things get confused is with the plumbing analogy that is used to teach the theory. In this, volts, amps and watts are referenced to the flow of water through the pipe. I think a better description based on your theory would be the flow of heat through a solid metal rod. Now I just have to convert all the stuff I thought I knew to the new theory. Maybe then it'll finally make sense, because frankly, that plumbing thing stunk.

So, using the hot rod, let me see if this is right. Amps is the temperature at the fire end. Volts if the temperature at the end I'm holding and watts is the number of BTUs it takes to make me go "OW!" Is this correct?

SHF

cowboydoc · Aug 6, 2001

Hi Dan,
I'm from the Northwest and came out here to go to graduate school. After school I married a girl that was below me in school. She still had two years left so I started working around here with the intention of leaving when she was done. Well one thing led to another and here we still are. We still plan on moving out to the northwest, she's from Montana, in about 5-8 years. I have a good friend who is the team doctor for the University of Idaho and Wash. State Univ. He wants me to come out in about five years and start to take over his practice. Right now that's the plan. As far as Iowa goes we are by the Quad Cities. It's in the middle eastern part of the state by Illinois.

TWINKLE_TOES · Aug 6, 2001

Dan,

I think were getting closer here, but still have a little ways to go.

"we could even meaure a petential difference between electrons from one atom to the next atom of a conductor, whereas if the electrons moved, the potential difference would not change, which we know it does."

The property of a conductor which allows it to pass electricity is the number of "free electrons". Those electrons in the valance band of the conductor. The electrons in this band are "free" to move from atom to atom. Each electron has a charge of 1.6019 x 10 -19 coulomb. Conduction in metals take place through the "motion" of electrons. A charge in motion (electron) constitutes a current.

If you have any doubt apply your view to the reactions in a battery or electroplating of metals.

Al

ddl · Aug 7, 2001

How do you deal with the cloud theory of electrons, where they form a cloud of electrons, the larger the charge the more electrons involved in the cloud. This principle adds to the theory of electron spin and the resulting magnetic field. Your idea of electric plating, in doing the plating one rod or material is destoryed. In a copper wire the makeup of the copper would change if the old idea of an electon leaving the circuit is replaced with one entering the circuit. If you remember from the circuit of a battery, a resistor and a switch, when the switch is closed electrons move but if you open and close the switch enough times, the chance of the switch opening before the electon enters is actually quite high. This would change the properties of the wire. The thing is we know that the cahnge in properties of the wire does not change. Thus this lead us back to the actual movement being charge and all equations deal with charge moving not electrons.

Dan L