An Electric Lesson

   / An Electric Lesson #61  
Charlie,

<font color=blue>So a question to you both. Are you really disagreeing, or are your differences in part in convention and
terminology, and part in discussion of theory</font color=blue>

No, our difference is not one of convention, but one of energy transfer through a conductor. Neither Dan nor I are smart enough to have figured any of this stuff out ourselves. My beliefs are based on the writings of some of the esteemed men of science. I have offered to provide specific references to those writings and challenged Dan to do the same.

<font color=blue>I studied Linus Pauling's Chemistry text in college................ I don't
remember, of course, what his book said, if anything, about electron flow vs. charge.</font color=blue>

Paulings text on Chemistry, and many others, provide the oxadation/reduction reactions for Zinc/Carbon and Lead acid battery. This reference was intended to identify the free electron generation in a battery.

Al
 
   / An Electric Lesson #62  
SHF,

<font color=blue>I always assumed it was electrons jumping the gap.</font color=blue>

Your assumption is correct./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The Plasma column in an arc is composed of a partially ionized gas. Gas molecules are "ionized" when neutral gas molecules separate into negatively charged free electrons and positively charged ions. This occurs by a number of different processes: High electric field electron and positive-ion collisions; absorption of radiation ; and thermal ionization, ionization by means of collisions with high temperature (high energy) electrons, positive ions and neutral molecules.

All of these processes occur in an arc; the relative importance of each is dependent on the location within the plasma column and the strength of the arc. The energy input to the plasma column is the Joule heating due to mobile current carriers. Since there is a large difference between the mass of an electron and the mass of a positive ion, there is a large difference between the response of an electron and a positive ion to an applied electric field. By far the majority of the current within the plasma column of an arc is carried by electrons.

Source Data: "The theory and Practice of Overcurrent Protection" by Patrick J. Mcleer, PHD., P.E. Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science University of Michigan.
 
   / An Electric Lesson #63  
ddl

I don't beleive that one. When I've gotten some breakers, they often have a sheet with them that indicate they are good for 10,000 operations (or something like that).

Twinkle Toes

I heard that all electrical devices operate on smoke. You can tell this, because when the smoke gets out, they stop working. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Also, I've noticed that British electrical devices (e.g. Lucas Electric) require more smoke than others. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

The GlueGuy
 
   / An Electric Lesson #64  
Dan,

<font color=blue>Thus this lead us back to the actual movement being charge and all equations deal with charge moving not electrons.</font color=blue>


It matters little what I think or what views we may present on this board. I really doubt that anything we have said will effect anyone on TBN to the slightest degree.
(other than humor)

What does matter is the teaching of young minds the views you have expressed.

Please review the following and verify the validity of the references. Begin Teaching your students a sound basis from which they may grow.

Theory of Conductivity in Metals (by Al, etal.)

Conduction of electricity in metals is known as the "electron gas" description of a metal.(1)

The laws obeyed by an electron gas are governed by Fermi-Dirac statistics.(3)

Statistical mechanics is the quantitative study of systems consisting of a large
number of interacting elements, such as the atoms or molecules of a solid, liquid, or gas, or the individual quanta of light (see photon) making up electromagnetic radiation. Although the nature of each individual element of a system and the interactions between any pair of elements may both be well understood, the large number of elements and possible interactions can present an almost overwhelming challenge to the investigator who seeks to understand the behavior of the system. Statistical mechanics provides a mathematical framework upon which such an understanding may be built. Since many systems in nature contain large number of elements, the applicability of statistical mechanics is broad. In contrast to thermodynamics, which approaches such systems from a macroscopic, or large-scale, point of view, statistical mechanics usually approaches systems from a microscopic, or atomic-scale, point of view. The foundations of statistical mechanics can be traced to the 19th-century work of Ludwig Boltzmann, and the theory was further developed in the early 20th cent. by J. W. Gibbs. In its modern form, statistical mechanics recognizes three broad types of systems: those that obey Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics, those that obey Bose-Einstein statistics, and those that obey Fermi-Dirac statistics.
Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics apply to systems of classical particles, such as the
atmosphere, in which considerations from the quantum theory are small enough that they may be ignored. The other two types of statistics concern quantum systems: systems in which quantum-mechanical properties cannot be ignored.
Bose-Einstein statistics apply to systems of bosons (particles that have integral values of the quantum mechanical property called spin; an unlimited number of bosons can be placed in the same state. Photons, for instance, are bosons, and so the study of electromagnetic radiation, such as the radiation of a black body involves the use of Bose-Einstein statistics.
Fermi-Dirac statistics apply to systems of fermions (particles that have half-integral values of spin); no two fermions can exist in the same state. Electrons are fermions, and so Fermi-Dirac statistics must be employed for a full understanding of the conduction of electrons in metals.
Statistical mechanics has also yielded deep insights in the understanding of magnetism, phase transitions, and superconductivity

Conduction of electricity consists of the flow of charges as a result of an electromotive force, or potential difference. The rate of flow, i.e., the electric current, is proportional to the potential difference and to the electrical conductivity of the substance, which in turn depends on the nature of the substance, its cross-sectional area, and its temperature.
In solids, electric current consists of a flow of electrons; as in the case of heat conduction, metals are better conductors of electricity because of their greater free-electron density, while nonmetals, such as rubber, are poor conductors and may be used
as electrical insulators, or dielectrics. Increasing the cross-sectional area of a given conductor will increase the current because more electrons will be available
for conduction. Increasing the temperature will inhibit conduction in a metal because the increased thermal motions of the electrons will tend to interfere with their
regular flow in an electric current; in a nonmetal, however, an increase in temperature improves conduction because it frees more electrons. In liquids and gases, current consists not only in the flow of electrons but also in that of ions. A highly ionized liquid
solution, e.g., saltwater, is a good conductor. Gases at high temperatures tend to become ionized and thus become good conductors (see plasma), although at ordinary temperatures they tend to be poor conductors.(2)

Source Material:

(1)Micro Electronics Digital and analog Circuits and Systems, Jacob Millman, PHD Columbia University. ISBN 0-07-042327-X389

(2)The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright 2000, Columbia University Press. Fermi-Dirac Statistics

(3)Chambers Dictionary of Science and Technology, ISBN 389 04482 2

Al (etal)
 
   / An Electric Lesson #65  
John,Ive heard such things but theve always sounded like a liability clause to me.I can't say Ive ever read it on any lit.(doesn't mean it ain't there) for any of the breakers I've installed regardless of maker...I have read how ever,that breakers should tipically be replaced about every 10-12 yrs.Even if they haven't tripped once.Though I can't say I've ever heard of any one spinding the $$$ to do it.Most folk I know figure "if ain't broke,don't fix it". I will say on a side note that I have a prefference of Square D over GE products.This based on personel experience in the field.I've shorted out a lot of ac circuits,often on purpose/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif,and Not once has A SQUARE D breaker not tripped for me.Others may dissagree.I can live that./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21D
 
   / An Electric Lesson #66  
Paul you are exactly right, this guy was some sorta liability fellow. He basically keeps up to date on all the eletrical codes from osha are whereever they come from. He did say that the way homes are wired will soon be changed with the new set of regs coming out.
 
   / An Electric Lesson #67  
osha,yeap usually they insist on a change after some one gets hurt.They come out with a new code book every 3 yrs N.E.C.(Nat elc code)Last one I got is 96.The thing that always amused me when I did Elec.work was the last statement of most paragraghs in the book.AT THE ISPECTORS DISCRETION........If you think about it they can be held acountable to a sertain degree if they sign off on a job that was done improperly and some one gets hurt later...So it's kinda hard to blame them for being picky...

Laziness is the Father of invention.../w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Lil' Paul
Proud owner of TC21D
 
   / An Electric Lesson #68  
Glueguy

What did I say about breakers. I know this has been a long thread but I don't remember saying anything about breakers.

Dan L
 
   / An Electric Lesson #69  
I think my theories are just fine, Last term one of my students scored the highest of any stsudents in the US on an exam given by a large company on the east coast. Another student topped the test given by a company on the west coast. But why are we having a pissing contest?? Insulting me does not do you well.

Dan L
 
   / An Electric Lesson #70  
GlueGuy

<font color=blue>all electrical devices operate on smoke<font color=blue>

<font color=black>THAT explains what happened to my fax machine! I plugged it in, the smoke got out and it didn't work anymore.

By the way, I finally figured out what causes wind--trees waving around. Everytime I go outside and it's windy, the trees are waving around. I think they're trying to get the wind to move soil against their roots, or maybe trying to get the wind to knock them over and crush me for living in a house made of their dead relatives/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

SHF </font color=black>
 
   / An Electric Lesson #71  
Dan,

I applaud the achievements of your students. I'm sure you are quite proud of them.

You began with "I do have an idea of what is really going on in elec....." and begin posting some abstract views of how energy is transmitted through conductors. You further qualified your self as teacher with 16 years of experience and continued to post your esoteric view of how things work.

I have provided abundant information complete with credible references, such that you might review and examine your position. I have requested any information you might have to support your view. I received nothing. I further provided reference to the specific theory of conduction in metals and traced it to it's foundation in statistical mechanics. In addition complete references for that effort.

The fact that we disagree and continue to debate could be called a "p...." contest, meaning it really doesn't matter what either of us think, it is of no consequence. If you had qualified yourself as a "shoe salesman" this debate would not have happened.

But when you qualify yourself as a professor with 16 years experience, this implies you are teaching young minds. Then it becomes much more than a "p..." contest. Incorrect views are planted in these young minds. And your view has no basis in science.

I have attempted to motivate you as diplomatically as I can, to re-think your position. The only remark that I have made that appears derogatory was "Begin Teaching your students a sound basis from which they may grow." and if that offends you so be it.

Al
 
   / An Electric Lesson #72  
If I flip the switch and the light comes, if I open the fridge and the beer is cold, If I push the button and the puter comes on, I don't care how electicity works, as long as it does! I don't care if it comes through the wires by electrons, protons, neutrons or MORONS

6-27459-jimsford.gif
jim
 
   / An Electric Lesson #73  
I'm with you, Jim./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif We know all we need to know, don't we?/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird
 
   / An Electric Lesson #74  
Bird, I'm shocked /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif. You get your electricity the same way I do? /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

6-27459-jimsford.gif
jim
 
   / An Electric Lesson #75  
If you're in Australia does it flow the opposite way??????????

Oh hell I geuss it does'nt matter
 
   / An Electric Lesson #76  
From the Web:

<font color=blue>What Is "Electricity"?
(c)1996 William J. Beaty
Electrical Engineer
SEE ALSO:
Electricity is not Energy
What is electricity, REALLY?!


What is electricity? This question is impossible to answer because the word "Electricity" has several different meanings. These different meanings contradict each other, and the contradictions confuse everyone. If you don't understand electricity, you're not alone. Even teachers, engineers, and scientists have a hard time understanding it.


Obviously "electricity" cannot be several different things at the same time. Unfortunately we have defined the word Electricity in a crazy way. Because of the contradictory meanings, we can never pin down the nature of electricity. In the end we are forced to declare that there's no such stuff as "electricity" at all!


Here's a quick example to illustrate the problem.


In household lamp cord, the charges sit in one place and wiggle back and forth (Alternating Current.) At the same time, the energy moves rapidly from the distant generators and into the light bulb. OK, now ask yourself this: does "electricity" sit inside the wires and vibrate, or does it flow forwards? It cannot do both! This little question exposes a great flaw in the way we talk about "electricity". If we can repair this flaw, our explanations of "electricity" will finally start making sense.
Below are the most common meanings of the word Electricity. Which one do you think is right? Think about it carefully. If one of these meanings is correct, all the others must be wrong! After all, a "science term" should never have several conflicting definitions. Unfortunately dictionaries and encyclopedias contain all of these. (Click the links to find out more about each one.)


- "Electricity" means electric charge.
Examples: CHARGES OF ELECTRICITY. COULOMBS OF ELECTRICITY.
- "Electricity" refers to the flowing motion of electric charge.
Examples: CURRENT ELECTRICITY. AMPERES OF ELECTRICITY.
- "Electricity" means electrical energy.
Examples: PRICE OF ELECTRICITY. KILOWATT-HOURS OF ELECTRICITY.
- "Electricity" refers to the amount of imbalance between quantities of electrons and protons.
Example: STATIC ELECTRICITY.
- "Electricity" is a class of phenomena involving electric charges.
Examples: BIOELECTRICITY, PIEZOELECTRICITY, TRIBOELECTRICITY, THERMOELECTRICITY, ATMOSPHERIC ELECTRICITY ...ETC.
- Other less common definitions:
"Electricity" refers to the flowing motion of electric energy (electric power, Watts of electricity)
"Electricity" means electric field (Volts of electricity)
"Electricity" means the nitrogen/oxygen plasma (sparks of electricity)
"Electricity" is a field of science (Basic Electricity, Advanced Electricity)


If we wish to agree on a single correct definition of "electricity," which definition should we choose? Well, maybe we don't need to choose just one. Suppose we ignore the contradictions and pretend that ALL of the above definitions are true. Below is the "clear" and "simple" description of electricity that results:

Electricity is a mysterious incomprehensible entity which is invisible and visible at the same time. It is both matter and energy. It's a type of low-frequency radio wave which is made of protons. It is a mysterious force which looks like blue-white fire and yet cannot be seen. It moves forward at the speed of light... yet it vibrates in the AC cord without flowing forwards. It's totally weightless, yet it has a small weight. When electricity flows through a light bulb's filament, it gets changed entirely into light. Yet no electricity is ever used up by the light bulb, and every bit of it it flows out of the filament and back down the other wire. College textbooks are full of electricity, yet they have no electric charge. Electricity is a class of phenomena which can be stored in batteries! If you want to measure a quantity of electricity, what units should you use? Why Volts of course. And also Coulombs, Amperes, Watts, and Joules, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Yet "electricity" is a class of phenomena; it's a type of event. Since we can't have an AMOUNT of an event, we can't really measure the quantity of electricity at all, right?
Heh heh.
Does my description above sound stupid and impossible? You're right. It is. The word "electricity" has contradictory meanings, and I'm trying to show what happens when we accept more than one meaning. Electricity is not both slow and fast at the same time. It is not both visible and invisible.

Instead, approximately ten separate things have the name "electricity." There is no single stuff called "electricity." ELECTRICITY DOES NOT EXIST. Franklin, Edison, Thompson, and millions of science teachers should've had a long talk with Mrs. McCave before they decided to give a variety of independant science concepts just one single name.


Mrs. McCave was invented by Dr. Seuss. She had twenty three sons. She named them all "Dave."


Whenever we ask "WHAT IS ELECTRICITY," that's just like asking Mrs. McCave "WHO IS DAVE?" How can she describe her son? There can be no answer since the question itself is wrong. It's wrong to ask "who is Dave?" because we are assuming that there is only one Dave, when actually there are many separate Daves. Who is Dave? Mrs. McCave cannot answer us until she first corrects our misunderstanding.


For the same reason, we will never find a simple answer to "what is electricity?" because the question itself is wrong. First we must realize that "electricity" does not exist. We must learn that many different things exist in wires, but that people wrongly call all of them by a single name.


So never ask "WHAT IS ELECTRICITY". Instead, discard the word "electricity" and use the correct names for all the separate phenomena. Here are a few of them:



What is electric charge?
What is electrical energy?
What are electrons?
What is electric current?
What is an imbalance of charge?
What is an electric field?
What is voltage?
What is electric power?
What is a spark?
What is electromagnetism?
What is electrical science?
What is electrodynamics?
What is electrostatics?
What are electrical phenomena?
These questions all have sensible answers. But if you ask WHAT IS ELECTRICITY?, then all answers you find will just confuse you, and you'll never stop asking that question.</font color=blue>

Morover, I doubt that anyone really knows what is going on in an electrically conducting wire at the quantum level.
 
   / An Electric Lesson #77  
Jim, for all I know you may be on the other end of the same pair of wires that come to my house./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I know I'm on one end of the wires because they don't go on past here./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird
 
   / An Electric Lesson #78  
You are right, that is why they call it theories. A smart man is open to many different theories and even enjoys learning new ones. As an example, when I was growing up on the farm, farmers kept getting bigger and bigger tractors and equipment. Here on this board, we learn that the size of equipment is the only thing getting bigger but using smaller tractors.

Dan l
 
   / An Electric Lesson #79  
Jim,

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Electricty is brought to your house by Morons, Hmmmm..... I think your right and I'm sure a lot of folks on the west coast will agree with you.

Al
 
   / An Electric Lesson #80  
glennmac

Nobody knows what electricity is?

Now I do feel like a caveman. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif Join Grog. Sit in cave. Behold the mystical BIC! Grog make Fire! Fire good. Fire hot! Grog invent burn creme.

SHF
 

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