A Battery Rejuvenator

[Beltman60]

I have 10) 205 watt evergreen's with 32 batteries for 1100 amp/hrs @ 24 volt
this barn is totally off grid including water
I need that much in the winter for bucket heaters, trough heaters and such
in the summer running 5 fans and lights I still have plenty to burn and not get close to 80% battery capacity

 

[King Benjamin]

Yes I had thought the same thing but some how I realized that the charger only worked when connected to a good battery.

Probably, some of you test a battery charger by touching the clips together to see a spark, and if you do, you assume that it is working.

Have any of you came across a battery charger that seem to not put out any voltage? Well I did and thought the charger that I purchased was bad/broke.

A friend of mine showed me something interesting that I did not know. Apparently some battery chargers need some voltage to start the charging process.

The charger reads no voltage not connected to battery, and when connected to battery, it is putting out about 14 V.

Anyway, didn't know if anybody had came across one of these chargers, and thought it was no good, but try connecting the clips on the battery and see if there is any charging voltage.

 

[King Benjamin]

Yes I had thought the same thing but some how I realized that the charger only worked when connected to a good battery.

Probably, some of you test a battery charger by touching the clips together to see a spark, and if you do, you assume that it is working.

Have any of you came across a battery charger that seem to not put out any voltage? Well I did and thought the charger that I purchased was bad/broke.

A friend of mine showed me something interesting that I did not know. Apparently some battery chargers need some voltage to start the charging process.

The charger reads no voltage not connected to battery, and when connected to battery, it is putting out about 14 V.

Anyway, didn't know if anybody had came across one of these chargers, and thought it was no good, but try connecting the clips on the battery and see if there is any charging voltage.

 

[kub0]

As a Bare minimum I hope you are plugging into GFCI. Even then I would be very careful.

 

[King Benjamin]

wow I guess you really need to take care of so many batteries! Has it really been cost effective for you? I mean considering your time also? My son is an engineer in a huge Vault and part of his job is taking care of the battery back up systems. He says at the moment there really is no cost effective way to use batteries for anything but backup situations Where "down time" would mean disaster.

I have 10) 205 watt evergreen's with 32 batteries for 1100 amp/hrs @ 24 volt
this barn is totally off grid including water
I need that much in the winter for bucket heaters, trough heaters and such
in the summer running 5 fans and lights I still have plenty to burn and not get close to 80% battery capacity

 

[Beltman60]

the batteries are sealed AGM type that I got from a guy who gets them from the cell towers
they are to have 10 year life expectancy and they take them off line every 4 years
now these things sit and trickle charge 99% of the time and get used maybe twice a year when power goes out so I din't feel they were hurt in the least bit
these batteries new are $220/each and I got 32 shipped to my place of work to be forklifted off the truck for $1600.
they have been online for 3 years and have lost min capacity (put on line 12.7-12.8 v now 12.6-12.7 v)
now I hardly ever let them depleat passed 80% full charge except in the winter I might let them go to 60% then back feed them with my gen set but that hasn't been an issue since the first year they were online (3 months of 8hrs/ month running gen set)
last year wasn't that cold so bucket heaters weren't needed as much and this year when it was cold the sun was out
I have maybe $5500. total in my set-up and that is about what it was going to cost me to run wire from my house to the barn to get about 30 amp (house is 500 ft from barn)
and I havn't had an electric bill for all my barn power
actually solar is quite boring to have and run
set up and maybe twice a year check some voltages and thats about it

 

[patrick_g]

Has anyone tried using 240VAC in place of 120VAC for the desulfater?

While isolation transformers have merit, so does not touching any bare wires or battery posts while the thing is plugged in. I second the suggestion to use one of these home brew desulfaters with a GFCI outlet. An off/on switch and a pilot light to indicate that power is applied might prevent a shocking experience.

Patrick

 

[patrick_g]

I am wondering why I can't just use a wire wound resistor? And do I measure the cold bulbs and use a resistor of the same ohm reading and at least 3 amps?

To replace the light bulb with a resistor requires an expensive power resistor that handles the same power as the bulb did. Getting the resistance "RIGHT" isn't trivial as the tungsten filament of the light bulb is a non-linear resistance dependent on the temperature of the filament. Measuring it with an ohm meter will not get it right. you need to measure the RMS current through the light bulb with the circuit in operation to calculate the resistor you need. So the question is, why go to all the hassle to eliminate the cheap and effective solution with a more expensive one? If you are using this off road taking lots of high G jolts and vibrations the resistor would survive better than the filament of the bulb but I'll bet it will be used in a static environment.

Do not size the diode by using the current measured flowing in the circuit as a direct indication. The tungsten filament bulb is lower in resistance when cold and will permit an inrush current greater than the RMS current.. To be safe, go for a diode with higher current rating than the average (RMS) current value when the unit is operating.

You could observe this with an O'scope but failing that just go BIGGER in amps.

Pat

 

[TCJatko]

I'm afraid I'd rank this "battery rejuvenator" up there with the perpetual motion machine, the yeti, and the Philosopher's Stone.

 

[patrick_g]

The difference between ignorance and stupidity is that ignorance is capable of being cured by experience and or training/education but stupidity is not fixable.

Lets run a test to see which we are observing. If you look at commercially available professional battery chargers with built in desulfation capability (expensive but work well, not snake oil) you may find that desulfation is not quackery. Pro grade off the shelf circuits use faster rise times (square waves) and some use capacitive discharge to pack extra punch into fast rise time waveforms so may outperform the DIY version discussed here. The issue at hand is not where to rank the DIY version as compared to the commercial models but to acknowledge their similarity and the fact that they do work well enough to make it worth the time to anyone sensitive to paying a lot more $ for a commercial unit.

I know folks who are still waiting for color TV to be perfected before they buy one. Different strokes for different folks. Whether or not someone believes that the DIY circuit in question works or not is immaterial since we have reliable reports that the circuit is working good enough for some of us. Different people react in different ways to things beyond there ken. Some refuse to accept anything beyond their level of technological understanding and that is fine. Limiting but OK. I'm all for the guy who wants to chip out his own folsom points and hunt wild boar with a primitive bow and arrow so long as he doesn't try to convince me that modern rifles are bogus, equivalent to philosopher's stone, perpetual, motion, sasquatch, etc.

 

[TCJatko]

Since someone broached the subject of "ignorance", apparently some folks don't know the difference between the posessive pronoun "their" and the adverb or pronoun "there". Also, I should point out that something works "well"(adverb), not "good"(adjective). As a USAF electronics tech for a decade, I have a fair understanding of electronics. Were desulfation practical, I'm sure it would be a more widespread practice. If you guys want to scrounge batteries from the dump and revive them, knock yourselves out. I'll stick with replacing them when their service life is over. They are far more dependable that way.

 

[John_Mc]

Desulfation is widely accepted as a means of extending battery life. It's not voodoo... there is good science behind the technology. In fact, while I can't speak for military applications, in General Aviation it's a commonly used technology, particularly for those of us who don't fly as frequently as we would like to. It's been widely reviewed and tested in the aviation press, and at least one aviation battery manufacturer (Concorde) has worked closely with a battery charger manufacturer to custom-design charging profiles - including desulfation cycles - for their aviation batteries.

Desulfation circuits are also not uncommon to see in automotive-type chargers (though the low end chargers typically do not have this feature). Phone companies use chargers with desulfation circuits to maintain their back-up battery banks. It's also widely accepted in the marine and RV world, as well as in renewable energy systems where batteries are used for back-up or storage.
______________

While I try to make an effort to use appropriate grammar in my posts, to me that's not really a primary concern for this forum or many other internet discussion groups. Getting the idea across clearly is. Occasionally, I run across a post that I just can't make head or tail of. When that happens, if I need more clarity, I just ask. There are grammatical errors that are like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, but when I run into them online, I just get over it. This is a tractor forum, not a discussion group for Stunk and White's Elements of Style.

 

[patrick_g]

Sorry if you feel attacked, not my intention to attack you personally but to attack ignorance. Ignorance can be cured and most of us appreciate being disabused of wrong thinking. It isn't that I don't know the difference between their and there but my fingers can easily outrun my brain and the spell checker doesn't do grammar checking.

USAF huh? What was your MOS? I was also USAF and went to a 8 month electronics course where we learned lots of stuff, some of which was useful. Having made my living in various technical areas I have a more accepting attitude regarding being shown something new I hadn't been aware of previously. I too rail against "snake oil" like pills to put in your gas tank to let you use water instead of gasoline. There is lots of junk with no valid science behind it for sale. However when honest folks are reporting success with a circuit that you haven't tried it is disrespectful to indict them as believing in philosopher's stone etc. As it has been pointed out by others there are lots of commercial applications of this equipment. You come across like the fictitious aeronautical engineer who proclaimed the bumblebee could not sustain flight as the wings were too small, too inefficient and powered by muscles incapable of sustaining flight and the fuel consumption would be too great for the on-board energy reserves thus the bee could not maintain flight. Since the bee does maintain flight it is safe to assume that at least one of the assumptions was wrong.

Similarly there is good science behind the desulfation of batteries to extend their life. This is true even though you were ignorant of it.

When you can't fault the science and cant find flaw in the logic resorting to picking on a trivial typo in an unwarranted ad hominem attack is not a way to increase your esteem in the eyes of your fellow TBN'ers.

I apologize again if I have made you uncomfortable. Not to worry, this will all blow over soon, a tempest in a teapot as it were.

Oh by the way, I have at times made my living as an electronic circuit designer in diverse endeavors ranging from medical electronic equipment to man packed battery operated welders. I have seen the impossible done too many times to be eager to count coup on someone claiming to be doing something just because I hadn't seen it before or studied it in the USAF.

By the way... thanks for your service to our nation.

Patrick

 

[Egon]

My old battery is getting pretty run down Pat. Think it could be sulphating plates?

 

[TCJatko]

Sorry if you feel attacked, not my intention to attack you personally but to attack ignorance. Ignorance can be cured and most of us appreciate being disabused of wrong thinking. It isn't that I don't know the difference between their and there but my fingers can easily outrun my brain and the spell checker doesn't do grammar checking.

USAF huh? What was your MOS? I was also USAF and went to a 8 month electronics course where we learned lots of stuff, some of which was useful. Having made my living in various technical areas I have a more accepting attitude regarding being shown something new I hadn't been aware of previously. I too rail against "snake oil" like pills to put in your gas tank to let you use water instead of gasoline. There is lots of junk with no valid science behind it for sale. However when honest folks are reporting success with a circuit that you haven't tried it is disrespectful to indict them as believing in philosopher's stone etc. As it has been pointed out by others there are lots of commercial applications of this equipment. You come across like the fictitious aeronautical engineer who proclaimed the bumblebee could not sustain flight as the wings were too small, too inefficient and powered by muscles incapable of sustaining flight and the fuel consumption would be too great for the on-board energy reserves thus the bee could not maintain flight. Since the bee does maintain flight it is safe to assume that at least one of the assumptions was wrong.

Similarly there is good science behind the desulfation of batteries to extend their life. This is true even though you were ignorant of it.

When you can't fault the science and cant find flaw in the logic resorting to picking on a trivial typo in an unwarranted ad hominem attack is not a way to increase your esteem in the eyes of your fellow TBN'ers.

I apologize again if I have made you uncomfortable. Not to worry, this will all blow over soon, a tempest in a teapot as it were.

Oh by the way, I have at times made my living as an electronic circuit designer in diverse endeavors ranging from medical electronic equipment to man packed battery operated welders. I have seen the impossible done too many times to be eager to count coup on someone claiming to be doing something just because I hadn't seen it before or studied it in the USAF.

By the way... thanks for your service to our nation.

Patrick

I can see where anti-sulfation techniques could prolong the life of in-use, serviceable batteries. I still don't think it a prudent use of time and resources to go dump picking for old batteries, but as I said previously, go for it if you want. Still a free country, at least for a while. When I was in the USAF, and it's been a while since I retired in 1992, it was called an Air Force Specialty Code, or AFSC. Mine was 32470, or Precision Measuring Equipment (PME) Technician. I was in tech school at Lowry AFB in Denver in 1972, and later an instructor in '76-'77.

 

[patrick_g]

My old battery is getting pretty run down Pat. Think it could be sulphating plates?

Maybe. If you leave it hooked up to a couple amp charger overnight every night in winter time as many folks used to do in the frozen NORTH that could be a problem. During my three winter stay in Minot, ND lots of guys would take the batteries out of their cars every night during the cold winter weather so the output wouldn't plummet with their temperature. Anyone who thinks the battery rejuvenator in this thread is a Rube Goldberg contraption would faint away if they saw some of the homebrew battery chargers used overnight on these removed batteries to top them off for the next morning's starting struggle.

On the other hand it might just be bad karma.

Have you guys thawed out yet? We are having a premature heat wave and getting mid to low 90's in the PMs.

 

[patrick_g]

I came out of school as a 34151A and for 3 years was the 3 1/2 men called for in the SAC manning document per unit of assigned equipment.

I haven't advocated dumpster diving for batteries but a significant percentage might be restored sufficiently to last a while. I'm not surprised that a denizen of a PMEL activity would be more than a tad persnickety about things being JUST SO. I try to apply the degree of perfection that is practical for the issue at hand. I have used nanoammeters and such as well as a Simpson 260 or PSM-6 (USAF tool.) MY last interface with a PMEL was when the base film librarian borrowed a VTVM and tried to measure the impedance of the local power station with it. The cooling louvers showed heavy smoke emission and shaking the instrument made it sound like maracas from all the ceramic material where the precision wirewound resisters had blown up. I got it back from PMEL in what looked to be perfect order, brand new looking but with original serial number.

Patrick

 

[TCJatko]

I came out of school as a 34151A and for 3 years was the 3 1/2 men called for in the SAC manning document per unit of assigned equipment.

I haven't advocated dumpster diving for batteries but a significant percentage might be restored sufficiently to last a while. I'm not surprised that a denizen of a PMEL activity would be more than a tad persnickety about things being JUST SO. I try to apply the degree of perfection that is practical for the issue at hand. I have used nanoammeters and such as well as a Simpson 260 or PSM-6 (USAF tool.) MY last interface with a PMEL was when the base film librarian borrowed a VTVM and tried to measure the impedance of the local power station with it. The cooling louvers showed heavy smoke emission and shaking the instrument made it sound like maracas from all the ceramic material where the precision wirewound resisters had blown up. I got it back from PMEL in what looked to be perfect order, brand new looking but with original serial number.

Patrick

Ah, the old PSM-6. Replaced many a meter movement from guys using the 50 microamp special range to measure voltage.

 

[Treemonkey1000]

You guys are speaking my language with Simpson and that sort of stuff. I work at a Primary Standards calibration lab here in Seattle. We have our standards from NIST to test every thing from capacitance, resistance, voltage, current to better than the gnats eyebrow. The first meter I grab for just basic trouble shooting is my 260. Unless I need some really accurate measurements. Right now I work on RF microwave equipment.. It's a great job and I get paid to play. And my other job is tree work and radio towers so I get to play there as well.

 

[John_Mc]

My old battery is getting pretty run down Pat. Think it could be sulphating plates?

Maybe. If you leave it hooked up to a couple amp charger overnight every night in winter time as many folks used to do in the frozen NORTH that could be a problem...

My understanding was that sulfation was accelerated by leaving a lead acid battery partially discharged, particularly for an extended period of time. Over-charging can certainly cause problems as well, but I'm not sure they're the same problems. They best strategy for extending lead-acid battery life is a preventative one. Avoid deeply cycling the battery; if it is partially discharged, charge it fully as soon as possible; do not overcharge; desulphation can be part of an effective preventive maintenance strategy -- it works a whole lot better than trying to "revive" a damaged battery (even though some of them can be revived).

On the other hand, it's been a long time since I read up on desulfation. I researched it enough to convince me to buy a couple of VDC BatteryMinders. I got the relatively inexpensive model 1500 for use with auto/tractor/camper batteries (when it was on sale at Northern Tool). I also got a 24 volt aviation-specific charger/desulfator for my aircraft -- it was not cheap, but at around $400 for a new battery, it's worth putting some effort in to extending the life (especially since I'm not flying very frequently these days, and need to counter the battery's natural tendency to self-discharge over time).

BTW... my brother-in-law is a hard-core dumpster diver. Almost all of his automotive or batteries are reclaimed from junk yards. He's had no where near a 100% success rate, but I guess it's just a matter of where your personal trade-off between spending time or money lies. He seems to take a lot of pleasure out of milking every last bit of usefulness out of anything he owns.