250' water line: got some questions

[SPYDERLK]

I have never heard of black PE failure. A 2.5 Mile water line that my father had installed 50 years ago has never leaked. In the area around the farm where I grew up they knifed in a complete new rural water line 6' deep and it was all black poly. My brother, who is on the home place, had branches run off to various pastures while they were there to knife it in. that was 15 years ago an no issues thus far.

i had a black poly line from the city main to my house that was about 1/4 mile long and had problems - at each of the plastic barbed fittings after about 40 years. We put in a replacement black poly with brass connectors.

the beauty to black poly is that is flexible enough to take the ground shifting as long as it is deep enough to not get crushed and there is not a sharp rock next to it.

I think this is exactly right. It seems the problem with poly is that "anybody" can do it, including the ones that cant empty the boot unless the instructions are on the heel. It is actually the most forgiving of installation, but this can lull the common sense.

... Use brass barbs with 100% stainless clamps doubled and set 180 degrees apart. Tighten all joints at least twice because the plastic settles in. No more than gentle curving at the joints. Exclude rocks in the 1st part of backfill.

The only failure Iv seen is on some 3/4" thin/100psi stuf that was used in the well for years and then replaced when the pump was changed. It then sat out in the weather in the woods for a long time before being re purposed. One of the surface scratches then developed into a split near a joint. ... Im not blaming the polypipe.

 

[ultrarunner]

Where are you guys buying the good 180# or better poly?

We have Dedicated first water rights to a Spring about 2 miles away... the Spring is now in parklands and the park is responsible for maintaining the line to the farm property line.

Last year they got the idea to install a 2" water meter and it has been a total disaster... the install has blown out several times in the first couple of months and each time emptying a 20,000 gallon tank... static water pressure at the meter is about 170# last I checked.

For now the project is on hold and straight pipe with no meter continues to have no issues.

 

[DJ54]

Advanced Drainage Systems (ADS) makes a 200 psi rating poly pipe. You might check for a local supplier. Here, it can be bought at big box stores, such as Home Depot, but not sure what you have there..

 

[MossRoad]

I'm getting ready to install a ~250' water line on my SC TN property and have some questions.

- I plan to use 20' 1" PVC sticks; which direction should the bell go? Or does it matter?

- I want to bury a locating cable/wire with the pipe so the pipe can be found later. What cable/wire do I use?

- Frost depth maps for my area show somewhere between 5" and 10". If you were doing this job, how deep would by bury the pipe?

Anything else I may have missed?

Thanks,

What are you running the water line for? Supply from street to house? From well to house? From house to garden? Between two buildings? Etc... that might be helpful info for those offering advice.

For example, I ran black poly pipe from house to garden about 200' in one pull about 8" deep. There's an automatic sprinkler drain at the lowest point, so it drains after each use. Frost line here is about 36" and I didn't want to trench and garden hose was a pain to mow around.

 

[DJ54]

Good thread.

Our line from the main is leaking and part will need replacing. I'll be following this thread.


What's "heavy equipment"? There's on place not to far from the main where (before I bought) some dip was driving some size truck and dropping gravel behind my shops. I think they were planning on expanding the shop.

It's where I've driven my M4700.



That's a GREAT IDEA, probably cost an arm and a leg upfront, but great security.

At the time it may have been another $100-$125 for the 1-1/4". Well worth it to me. I actually bought it through an Amish Geothermal contractor. I had 2, 170' runs side by side, but one to a fountain for the horses, and one to a nearby hydrant. They were the only ones to have 500' rolls of the 3/4", and 200' rolls of the 1-1/4".

I needed the extra 3/4" to repair a line to a hydrant by the shop. I accidentally cut it, when installing the electric to the new horse barn.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Where are you guys buying the good 180# or better poly?

We have Dedicated first water rights to a Spring about 2 miles away... the Spring is now in parklands and the park is responsible for maintaining the line to the farm property line.

Last year they got the idea to install a 2" water meter and it has been a total disaster... the install has blown out several times in the first couple of months and each time emptying a 20,000 gallon tank... static water pressure at the meter is about 170# last I checked.

For now the project is on hold and straight pipe with no meter continues to have no issues.

http://www.centennialplastics.com/assets/files/Specs/CenFloHDPE_4710_3608_CenFloMDPE_2708.pdf

,,, ... I dont understand the problem caused by the meter.

 

[ultrarunner]

I don't either...

Park decided they wanted to meter the water which is deeded for a minimum of 2,000 gallons per day of pure high quality spring water... more if there is more.

When the contractor added the meter it blew out overnight... and did so 5 or 6 times.

The PVC 2" line is rated at 200 psi and static is 170 psi.

Don't quite understand the dynamics but the meter location is evidently the weak link.

Went back to straight pipe about 5 months ago and it is holding.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Is the meter measuring flow quantity? - or controlling/starting/stopping flow? If start stop you will have significant pressure surges if the [long] water column is stopped quickly.

 

[FTG-05]

What are you running the water line for? Supply from street to house? From well to house? From house to garden? Between two buildings? Etc... that might be helpful info for those offering advice.

For example, I ran black poly pipe from house to garden about 200' in one pull about 8" deep. There's an automatic sprinkler drain at the lowest point, so it drains after each use. Frost line here is about 36" and I didn't want to trench and garden hose was a pain to mow around.

Good question.

It's for a frost free water faucet to the other side of my shop. There's already one FF outlet on one side of the shop but it's under concrete, so I have to go 250'+ to get the faucet where I want it.

This is what I use to find cables and underground power lines: Underground Cable Wire Locator, Easily Locate Pet Fence Wires, Sprinkler Control Wires, Metal Pipes, Electrical Wires, Telephone Wire, Coax Cable - Circuit Testers - Amazon.com

So I *assume* that any 20-22 ga insulated wire will work.

Also, my ground is very rocky. Besides backfiling with sand, any other ways to protect the pipe besides pipe-in-a-pipe?

Thanks,

 

[stuckmotor]

From what I can remember the black polly with a 50 year warranty has only showed up in the last few years, The price seems to have increased in proportion to the warranty.

 

[stuckmotor]

I can picture myself trying to get a refund on some of that 50 year warranted pipe 49 years from now. I'll be 114 years old.

 

[SPYDERLK]

In terms of 50yrs pressure, water, and ground burial, what is the alternative? ... Stainless Steel?

 

[newbury]

I can picture myself trying to get a refund on some of that 50 year warranted pipe 49 years from now. I'll be 114 years old.

And the way medical advances are going you'll probably be a cranky old dude banging on the counter!

 

[Egon]

I always put the belled end on the outside of the non-belled end of the next section. Never failed yet.



Bruce

What's wrong with Bell to Bell??

 

[brown40]

Interesting to hear how folks do it in different areas of the country. Most everyone in Maine uses the black PE pipe coils--when shopping it sometimes helps to tell associates you're looking for "well pipe", then they take you to the black stuff. PE, HDPE, LDPE--the names give a glimpse at how adaptable the polyethylene monomer is for chemists to work with and tailor the polymerization and formula to resist whatever it is they are looking for it to do. The PEX is a different cross-linking arrangement of the same monomer that gave it some great strength and stretch qualities--I don't know what it did for abrasion resistance.
I wonder if fail rates have to do with old formulas, overexposure to UV or heat, poor handling and installation, or just a bad batch or formula that didn't quite do what was planned? I know the coils can be challenging to handle, but I'd prefer a straight shot without joints, FWIW.

 

[LD1]

Pay attention to the sdr number on the black pipe. Typically coorsponds directly to the pressure rating.

Sdr stands for standard diameter ratio. It's the ratio of wall thickness to diameter. Lower the sdr, thicker walled the pipe.

IE: for a 1" pipe, sdr 11 will have a wall thickness of 1/11". Sdr 7 will have a wall thickness of 1/7"..... thicker, stronger, and higher psi rating

 

[stuckmotor]

And the way medical advances are going you'll probably be a cranky old dude banging on the counter!

I wonder if I'll have to dig up the pipe and take it back to the store to get my refund and will they refund all of my money or just enough to cover the section with the hole in it.

 

[GLyford]

Around here everyone uses the poly, but we are on sand, on top of granite bedrock. Even with frost heaves, bedrock doesn't move much. Mine has lasted for 30 years (knock on wood).

A bunch of the TX guys are on expansive clays where the soil movement is much more severe...and they have problems with poly.

Not everyone's soil acts the same, so not every solution will work the same for everyone.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I would never use black poly pipe around my place. The soil if full of rocks and I would have to import tons of sand to backfill with. I can use schedule 80 PVC without fear of a rock puncturing it. All my water lines are run with PVC, some with a coupling and some with bell end. I don't remember which way I put it (likely bell end down stream since I would be starting from a valve end) but I don't think it makes any difference for the low foot per second flow rate of water lines.

The old pipefitter word of mouth would be to put bell end upstream for high flow piping. This was to prevent erosion of the inserted pipe when the fluid comes out of the bell end and hits the end of the inserted pipe. Putting it bell end upstream means that fluid would come out of the inserted pipe and then gently transition into the bell end. As I said, I don't think it makes any difference in home water lines.

 

[bcp]

What's wrong with Bell to Bell??

Lap joints leak less than butt joints.



Bruce