220v outlet for welder powered by (2) 20 amp breakers

[grsthegreat]

I thought once you black tape both ends of a white wire it's no longer considered a neutral, it's being used as a hot.

well yes and no. strictly according to NEC code, you cannot change a wire color by marking it for wires smaller than #6. but most jurisdictions allow the white wire to be colored in residential #12-#6 wires as long as at least 6" of the wire is colored. Cant do this in commercial applications. what this jaxs character is alluding to is calling the white a neutral. hes mixing semantics. almost everyone recognizes a white wire as a neutral conductor. its true you cant use a neutral for a 240....it wouldnt work all you would get is 120V. . the op was wanting to use the old neutral (white) WIRE as the 2nd wire of a 240 by replacing the breaker with a 240 pole breaker and re-landing white wire on the breaker. totally legal and acceptable AS LONG AS THAT WHITE WIRE is not used on any other circuit. and the OP understands that. Jaxs is just a troller that is trying to cause trouble.

 

[Popgadget]

Keep in mind that the neutral is the center tap of the transformer, and will give half the voltage of the end taps when connected with either one of them.
The entire service feeding all the breakers is a
‘Common Neutral” circuit.
At the service equipment, the neutral is grounded, on all downstream equipment, the ground and neutral are separated and the neutral Buss is not bonded to the enclosure.
Understanding this is far more important than the conventions used for wire colors.

 

[GeneV]

Gene,I believe your intentions are good and so are mine. What it take's at least a couple of years to learn can't be explained in 25 words or less and it's foolish to ask someone to try. Just look where this is after more than 150 posts. Shine ? I have no desire to shine. Trying to shine is what some have done and it only lead to confusion.
Look at it like this. A man is sitting in the cockpit of an airplane idling on the tarmac and ask's how do I get this thing to fly? A surgeon can mark the spot to open your buddy for surgery and explain every detail on completing the proceedure but you will likly kill your friend. How bout completing a 1040 with instructions right in front of you? Few can do it so they hire it out,,,,,,,,,again and again. My favorite is asking how to give one's self a haircut. Compared to electric work,there's very little risk aside to making yourself look stupid. If it's money you want to save,give yourself hair cuts and see how well you shine.

Oh Jaxs, I've been giving myself haircuts for years, and I do my own taxes (both personal and business/payroll), repairs/remodels at home, and a bunch of other stuff including electrical (just yesterday completed the 220v in my shop). I do all that coz a) I enjoy it, and b) I don't do any worse a job than a hired pro would....because I research the crap out of stuff (what I was doing here in this thread), and put love into it.

If you can't explain it, that's on you, you need better communication skills.

 

[k0ua]

Gene, have you had time to do some welds on your new 220/240 volt circuit with your new welder yet? I bet you will enjoy the way it works.

 

[GeneV]

well yes and no. strictly according to NEC code, you cannot change a wire color by marking it for wires smaller than #6. but most jurisdictions allow the white wire to be colored in residential #12-#6 wires as long as at least 6" of the wire is colored. Cant do this in commercial applications. what this jaxs character is alluding to is calling the white a neutral. hes mixing semantics. almost everyone recognizes a white wire as a neutral conductor. its true you cant use a neutral for a 240....it wouldnt work all you would get is 120V. . the op was wanting to use the old neutral (white) WIRE as the 2nd wire of a 240 by replacing the breaker with a 240 pole breaker and re-landing white wire on the breaker. totally legal and acceptable AS LONG AS THAT WHITE WIRE is not used on any other circuit. and the OP understands that. Jaxs is just a troller that is trying to cause trouble.

To be fair, I didn't even consider it. But then neither did Jaxs initially, his first gripe here was GFCIs on the garage circuit. In any case, all of you guys really helped me, ALL you guys, Jaxs and Dale too.

I forgot which one of you was recommending a 50 amp subpanel, that's what I ended up with in the shop. Actually, I already had 2 subpanels in there, 1 being the main cutoff for 220v going to a phase converter, and that goes to a 2nd subpanel for 3-phase machinery. I tapped into that 2nd subpanel coz I had room in there (first panel is full), ran conduit with 6 ga wire, 50 amp breaker on the L1 and L2.

 

[GeneV]

Gene, have you had time to do some welds on your new 220/240 volt circuit with your new welder yet? I bet you will enjoy the way it works.

Today is the day, K0ua! Wiring was the easy part, what took a long time was emptying all the standup shelves lining that wall so that I could move them, then putting everything back the way I need it. I'm very **** about having everything organized, so I fuss with that a alot.

 

[grsthegreat]

I have 59 amp 240 in my garage for my welder also, but never used it. Due to smoke and mess i did all my welding in shop. Plus i have respirator system in shop for when i weld galvanized metal...which i used to do alot. Not much anymore.

I also research stuff online that i wish to do myself. When old washer needed a new tub seal, repairman wanted $600 to do it. I bought the seal and did it myself in about 90 minutes. Youtube rocks. Same with compressor fan on my refrigerator. Did it myself for WAY less money. I always just refer to it as being self sufficient. Last week i had a neighbor call me cause his portable generator wasnt running during power outage. He couldnt figure it out. Turned out it was way low on oil. He never serviced it, didnt even have any oil on hand. Personally, i cant stand not having parts in my shop for stuff i own. I have extra everything. I dont jus5 drop the thing off to repairman, i fix it myself. Alot of this stuff im not trained to do, so i ask questions and look it up online.

But there are limits. I dont feel like repairing an automatic transmisdion for example.

 

[WranglerX]

wrong, wrong and wrong. Neutral (white) wires can be used in residential 220 circuits...legally. As an example running a 10/2 romex for a 30 amp welder. Inspectors allow this with white wires blacked out. Use it all the time, and legal. Now under strict interpretation of NEC any wire under #6 cannot be phase taped, they allow it for residential. Another common use of white wire carrying hot load is use of 12/2 romex for a dead end switch leg. Phase tape or color white leg. Acceptable. Now for your Description of me a a internet electrician...i have 37 years as a calif and idaho electrical contractor to counteract that statement.

Once you phase tape a conductor the insulation color no longer has meaning....

Dale

 

[MF RED in MT]

Oh Jaxs, I've been giving myself haircuts for years, and I do my own taxes (both personal and business/payroll), repairs/remodels at home, and a bunch of other stuff including electrical (just yesterday completed the 220v in my shop). I do all that coz a) I enjoy it, and b) I don't do any worse a job than a hired pro would....because I research the crap out of stuff (what I was doing here in this thread), and put love into it.

If you can't explain it, that's on you, you need better communication skills.

Gene, maybe the next thing he tells ya might be, don't work on your tractor because tractor owners are not qualified for those task, good grief.

KC

 

[Henro]

But you don't have it correct either, there is a ground conductor that is a SAFETY GROUND and is ties common to a driven ground rod at entrance panel and bonded to NEUTRAL bar in primary distribution cabinet..... The terms "ground" and "neutral " are not synonymous.... THE safety ground will always be a green wire or green wire with yellow stripe, or maybe black wire with green tape identification (if all entrance wires are basically black) ...The neutral wire will always be a return current carrier in a 120v circuit and will never be referred to as a "ground"...Also per code the neutral wire will be white and should never be used as a "hot" leg, but always at return....

The term 220 v is being pushed around here with a lot of misinformation as to the "Edison Circuit"......It is not a 220 volt circuit it is two 120v circuits with common neutral....Which is different from a 220 volt circuit that is a 3 wire (L1-L2 & SG) or 4 wire (L1-L2-N & SG) for a device within a appliance (like electric drier) that may have need for 120 volts also, maybe to run motor....

National Electrical Code - Multiwire Branch Circuit | Transworld Electric


Dale

Dale, actually I do have it correct.

AND keep in mind the safety ground does not have to have a color at all. It can be bare copper.

If you do not recognize the difference between grounded conductor and safety ground please take another look at the subject. There IS a reason neutral is not the preferred term this century.

This pi$$ing contest is of little help to the OP. My last post on this one.

Frankly at this point I am confused as to why we have diverged from the original question.

By the way, a 220 volt circuit is NOT two single 110 volt circuits sharing a neutral. It is a 220 volt source center tapped in the middle. Net result is the current flowing in the common leg is the difference between the currents in each 110 volt side. Current in the common wire can be any value between zero and breaker rating. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT two 110 volt circuits sharing a common wire. Unless you understand the concept phase difference, which causes currents in the common wire to cancel out.

 

[GeneV]

Gene, maybe the next thing he tells ya might be, don't work on your tractor because tractor owners are not qualified for those task, good grief.

KC

Not even qualified to mow my own lawn lol, maybe I should just hire a landscaping engineer. Don't even get me started on using the backhoe...total amateur.

 

[dragoneggs]

Might have been me... I added a sub panel in my shop after for years running a heavy duty extension cord from my unused dryer outlet. Finally took the time to run 100ft of 6-3 from my house Service panel to a sub panel. Buried the wire between the detached garage and house. Now I have all the power I need and don't have to unplug/plug my machines and can run a couple at once, especially my air compressor while plasma cutting! Or I can be welding while someone else is woodworking.

No doubt you will enjoy your 220v power when welding! My 110/220v welder loves the added juice.

 

[GeneV]

I have 59 amp 240 in my garage for my welder also, but never used it. Due to smoke and mess i did all my welding in shop. Plus i have respirator system in shop for when i weld galvanized metal...which i used to do alot. Not much anymore.

I also research stuff online that i wish to do myself. When old washer needed a new tub seal, repairman wanted $600 to do it. I bought the seal and did it myself in about 90 minutes. Youtube rocks. Same with compressor fan on my refrigerator. Did it myself for WAY less money. I always just refer to it as being self sufficient. Last week i had a neighbor call me cause his portable generator wasnt running during power outage. He couldnt figure it out. Turned out it was way low on oil. He never serviced it, didnt even have any oil on hand. Personally, i cant stand not having parts in my shop for stuff i own. I have extra everything. I dont jus5 drop the thing off to repairman, i fix it myself. Alot of this stuff im not trained to do, so i ask questions and look it up online.

But there are limits. I dont feel like repairing an automatic transmisdion for example.

That's it right there! :drink:

I wanted to weld in the garage because I could open the doors and also just blow all resulting dust and stuff out with a leaf blower. Not to mention I have a nice wide driveway to work on. In the shop though, it's fairly tight in there, and now I gotta also figure out a fume extractor system. I'm working on that btw, using an old vacuum cleaner, it's gonna be pretty crazy if it works (I'll make a post on TBN if it works out).

 

[grsthegreat]

A friend of mine actually made his own fume hood hooked up to a large fan mounted on wall with hole in it. Worked great. Myself, i have a 30x40 shop with large roll up door. Lots of working room. I have a 250 volt greenhouse style exhaust fan on one side. Moves alot of air. If rollup was closed, i can hardly close man door. I just feel better getting exhaust crap out of building. I have a full on respirator mask with hose supplying outside air for galv metal welding or spray painting. I like my lungs

 

[ultrarunner]

Welding up my utility trailer in the driveway I managed to trip my 50 amp breaker... With 60 I would have been OK

Outlet is 16' from panel and never had an issue on little jobs but building the trailer required a lot of welds...

 

[GeneV]

A friend of mine actually made his own fume hood hooked up to a large fan mounted on wall with hole in it. Worked great. Myself, i have a 30x40 shop with large roll up door. Lots of working room. I have a 250 volt greenhouse style exhaust fan on one side. Moves alot of air. If rollup was closed, i can hardly close man door. I just feel better getting exhaust crap out of building. I have a full on respirator mask with hose supplying outside air for galv metal welding or spray painting. I like my lungs

You've got a real nice and roomy space, per the pics you posted. Tall ceilings help for sure. Me, my shop is a long 1 car garage, with 7ft ceilings.

Here's me yesterday, playing with the vacuum fume extractor thingie I threw together real quick. It works ok, not great not terrible.



I'm thinking of using a flexible ductwork with a duct fan, anybody do that? I saw a dude on youtube build one for his motorcycle exhaust. I just don't know if a duct fan would be powerful enough to suck up the fumes with the open duct hovering over the welding table.

 

[MF RED in MT]

Gene, Looks like your little welding space is working for you.

Only guessing for your "vacuum fume extractor thingie", but I've heard that those Kirby Vacuum Cleaners do everything, especially sucking, ha.

Ya might look at HF for a 8" - ?" diameter exhaust fan, maybe about $50-$80?

Just a thought from your pic, looks like you might be getting some arcing from your weld material to your welding table because of all those little "dingle berries" (weld splatter) stuck to your table?

To correct that condition, if it were me, I'd grind the table surface smooth with maybe a 60-80 grit sanding disc, and/or clamp your weld material to the table/clamp your ground clamp to your weld material.

It looks like a fun learning curve for you.

KC

 

[grsthegreat]

im wondering if all you need is a large box fan in window to draw out the smoke. i had to go with a high flow wall unit due to my plasma table. it does suck everything out. especially all the heat in the shop in the winter if i use it. makes a nice warm shop like a refrigerator in a few minutes.. the exhaust fan is the large rectangular item on wall at end of table. Vent closes when fan is off. its a 240 volt unit. moves a heck of alot of air....and dang noisy.

 

[GeneV]

Gene, Looks like your little welding space is working for you.

Only guessing for your "vacuum fume extractor thingie", but I've heard that those Kirby Vacuum Cleaners do everything, especially sucking, ha.

Ya might look at HF for a 8" - ?" diameter exhaust fan, maybe about $50-$80?

Just a thought from your pic, looks like you might be getting some arcing from your weld material to your welding table because of all those little "dingle berries" (weld splatter) stuck to your table?

To correct that condition, if it were me, I'd grind the table surface smooth with maybe a 60-80 grit sanding disc, and/or clamp your weld material to the table/clamp your ground clamp to your weld material.

It looks like a fun learning curve for you.

KC

I'm having a blast KC, that's for sure. I'm getting arcing mostly from the electrode sticking when I start welding. While prying it off, I got the metal flopping all over the table, getting all sparkly and stuff lol. Good tip about clamping it down, and I will grind the table a little, surface is getting a little rough, yeh.

 

[GeneV]

im wondering if all you need is a large box fan in window to draw out the smoke. i had to go with a high flow wall unit due to my plasma table. it does suck everything out. especially all the heat in the shop in the winter if i use it. makes a nice warm shop like a refrigerator in a few minutes.View attachment 669528. the exhaust fan is the large rectangular item on wall at end of table. Vent closes when fan is off. its a 240 volt unit. moves a heck of alot of air....and dang noisy.

Yeh, the winter is what I'm preparing for, I need to keep the place warm. All I got is electric space heaters in there, pricey running them as is when everything is closed off. That's why I'm trying to balance adequate cfm movement to get the fumes out without overdoing it and sucking out all my heat...as well as my air lol. I like breathing air.