10/2 wire question

[captaincrab55]

You can use white tape on each end to mark the wires but I recall the electric code does not allow this practice on wires smaller than 6 ga., so for a 10 ga. wire it should be white to start with.

Better to call an electrician than to burn down property that belongs to someone else.

There are some exceptions to the NEC, that allow smaller wires to be taped (color coded).. That exception applies to manufactured cables such as; NMB, BX, MC and others... In the 39 years that I've been in the Trade, I haven't seen an approved 10/2 cable that didn't have a white or identified conductor...

Sounds like one has the wrong cable...

 

[ampa]

I'm not gonna' touch anything in the fuse panel in this rented house, as far as what you guys are telling me about electrical codes,I think that the owner of this house hired a cheezy electrician,because no where is there any conduit to these electrical boxed recepticals beside the main panel which is a big mess of wires,so I guess I'm living in a death trap so to say,anyhow I'm gonna' get hold of a Lincoln rep and ask him why his company sell a 110volt welder that infact needs a 20 amp service to run it proper and it's equipped with a normal 15 amp 3 prong plug,I've read enough insaults to last me a life time,some about the way I type,I know how to it's just that I wanted to creat a sort of stye of my own,I've seen people do it like this<> or-------etc I like it like this.......so bite me!....and I'll do it any way I like with typing out a post... it's a free country or is it?Hmmmmmm lets think about that for awhile...thanks to the guys that know what they're talkin' about... I was listening!!!!.....the others????? unsigned this time round you know who I am>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Steve_Miller]

Take everything you read here with a grain of salt and don't let it bother you. Everyone has an opinion on something, right, wrong or indifferent. I'm no electrician, I just happen to work in the industrail side of the field working with mostly three phase equipment, PLC's, VFD's, etc... If you let all the negative stuff bother you you'll miss out on a lot of good info as well. Now that you have some feedback you can probably make a better decision on what you can do and move forward. No need to tell anyone here what that decision is as it is yours to follow through on. Good luck with the welding, it is a lot of fun and satisfying to built something with your own hands.


Steve

 

[captaincrab55]

I'm gonna' get hold of a Lincoln rep and ask him why his company sell a 110volt welder that infact needs a 20 amp service to run it proper and it's equipped with a normal 15 amp 3 prong plug,

ampa, That 3 prong plug should be marked with it's ampere rating... If it's marked 20 amps, it should be used on a 20 amp branch circuit with a 20 amp receptacle...

Let us know Lincoln's reply.... If you lived within 50 miles of me, I would install it free for you....

 

[ampa]

Thanks for the kind words from both u guys....Emailed Lincoln waiting for a reply>>>>>>>>

 

[ampa]

Okay guys....Here's what I was told...not to exceed and use a single breaker no more than what the welder draws and that is 125 volt 20 amps, the Lincoln has a heavy flat type 3 wire cord with a heavier standard type 3 prong plug in on the end of it's power cord...the single round receptical I bought is the correct type and is rated for 125 volts 20 amps it takes both the T type and the standard 15 amp type plug in so I don't have to change the plug on the welder....I just need to get a 20 amp breaker and around a foot and a half of 12/2 wire consisting of a black and white and the bare copper wire, this be for the receptical and the 20 amp breaker..the 50' extention which is a construction type 10/3 extra heavy duty....my friend Don the electrician will come by and check my installation out and see if I've done everything proper just being a friend doesn't mean his work is free without charge he even charges his own brothers/kin for his services, cause he's held responsible for any errors and could lose his licence,so anyhow I'm not to plug in anything till he checks it out, plus the use of the heavy duty extention is safe as it's rated @ 1800 + watts,Yes and I will lose amperage because of it being over 30' but if I was tripping the 15 amp breaker I should have a couple extra amps to play with plugged into the new 20 amp breaker....anyhow if it's not up to par/code the way Don told me to do it,then he'll make it right.....so anyhow, guys things are lookin' on the brighter side of things..Ampa:thumbsup:

 

[ampa]

I went to home Depot...and picked up the 20 amp breaker decieded to get 1 metre of 12/2 I think it used to be called BX cable years ago....anyhow it's for baseboard heaters...rated for 125 volts and can handle 20 amps,the aluminum coverd has the black and white/nuetral plus the bare copper for the ground attachment for inside the main breaker panel...I may just pay Don to wire it, I'm quite sure he'll be okay with the material I bought.....Ampa>>>>>>

 

[mustangsallysdad]

Okay guys....Here's what I was told...not to exceed and use a single breaker no more than what the welder draws and that is 125 volt 20 amps, the Lincoln has a heavy flat type 3 wire cord with a heavier standard type 3 prong plug in on the end of it's power cord...the single round receptical I bought is the correct type and is rated for 125 volts 20 amps it takes both the T type and the standard 15 amp type plug in so I don't have to change the plug on the welder....I just need to get a 20 amp breaker and around a foot and a half of 12/2 wire consisting of a black and white and the bare copper wire, this be for the receptical and the 20 amp breaker..the 50' extention which is a construction type 10/3 extra heavy duty....my friend Don the electrician will come by and check my installation out and see if I've done everything proper just being a friend doesn't mean his work is free without charge he even charges his own brothers/kin for his services, cause he's held responsible for any errors and could lose his licence,so anyhow I'm not to plug in anything till he checks it out, plus the use of the heavy duty extention is safe as it's rated @ 1800 + watts,Yes and I will lose amperage because of it being over 30' but if I was tripping the 15 amp breaker I should have a couple extra amps to play with plugged into the new 20 amp breaker....anyhow if it's not up to par/code the way Don told me to do it,then he'll make it right.....so anyhow, guys things are lookin' on the brighter side of things..Ampa:thumbsup:

If that extension cord is rated at 1800 watts, it only factors out to about 14.4 amps. Double check the rating on the cord jacket...I would think a #10 would be rated higher than that. 50' of #10 shouldn't have that much voltage drop.

 

[ampa]

Mustang this extention is rated for 1875 watts...I was told the makers always under rate these extentions so I'd like to agree with you that this 50' would be okay it's a really heavy duty,the first extention was no where near the size of this one although I was told being 12/3 it would also handle the 20 amp breaker no problems...the only thing I can do is when everything is connected, I'll try it and get get back to everyone and let you all know if it works or not...if it don't I guess I'll be usin' my 125 volt Lincoln in the work shop...just have to set it up usin' the 20 amp receptical,and isolate it by building a fire wall...with a fan to filter the fumes outside....I hope I don't have to revert to this....Thanks for the reply.....Ampa:thumbsup:

 

[captaincrab55]

ampa, Keep in mind, if your working in a sub-panel you can't land neutrals and grounds on the same bar.... On the other hand, if it's a service panel one can land grounds and neutrals on the same bar... Remember to only land one wire under each screw.....

 

[Diamondpilot]

I'm not gonna' touch anything in the fuse panel in this rented house, as far as what you guys are telling me about electrical codes,I think that the owner of this house hired a cheezy electrician,because no where is there any conduit to these electrical boxed recepticals beside the main panel which is a big mess of wires,so I guess I'm living in a death trap so to say,anyhow I'm gonna' get hold of a Lincoln rep and ask him why his company sell a 110volt welder that infact needs a 20 amp service to run it proper and it's equipped with a normal 15 amp 3 prong plug,I've read enough insaults to last me a life time,some about the way I type,I know how to it's just that I wanted to creat a sort of stye of my own,I've seen people do it like this<> or-------etc I like it like this.......so bite me!....and I'll do it any way I like with typing out a post... it's a free country or is it?Hmmmmmm lets think about that for awhile...thanks to the guys that know what they're talkin' about... I was listening!!!!.....the others????? unsigned this time round you know who I am>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No insults were given. You can not run 20 amps on 14 ga wire plain and simple. A electrician will tell you you will need 12 ga wire for 20 amps for most run lengths. We are trying to keep you safe and your landlord happy.

As for no conduit its not required in my part of the country. Not sure where you live but if you were to get a electrician in to check it all out you would have the right answers and then a legitimate fight with your landlord.

Chris

 

[ampa]

"Yep" I know that the bare copper wires are altogether in one place in the service panel(main panel)...and the white/neutrals are altogether at the bottom...my buddy the electrician pointed this out to me as well... matter of fact he phoned me tonight about something else, and I mentioned to him about connecting my 20 amp breaker,but he's really busy at his shop,but he's confident that I can do the work and if I'm sure I want him to check out what I've done he will,and won't charge me this time around,it's really nice to have good friends in the trade business,anyhow Captain thanks ever so much for your interest and input, like I mentioned I'll report back on the performance for sure, but in the meantime take care..... Ampa :thumbsup:

 

[captaincrab55]

No insults were given. You can not run 20 amps on 14 ga wire plain and simple. A electrician will tell you you will need 12 ga wire for 20 amps for most run lengths. We are trying to keep you safe and your landlord happy.



Chris

As of Today, 05:23 PM, he has that covered (12/2)....

 

[ampa]

Chris, I've never ever had any problems with you....... my comments were not directed at you at all,I always enjoy reading your many answers to other peoples questions and trust them always to be right on the money,anyhow I think you just came in on the tail end of this whole mess,but I assure you everything is quite under control to the experts,I know what you were telling me,I mentioned the service panel bein' somewhat a mess, but my friend Don the electrician will check it out and if he thinks it's not done to standards or code,he'll bring it to my landlords attention and make certain it's done to standards, or put a yellow tag on it,condeming it,and make certain the electrician that originaly wired this house comes back to correct it ASP,or if the lanlord wants Don to do it properly, I told my friend Don,to me it looks like a rats nest,but what do I know, least I'll get a second opinion from a pro.... many thanks to u Chris on this rather long and winded and confusing Lincoln 125 volt issue...take care.....Ampa...

 

[JoeL4330]

No question, the best advice is a licensed electrician. Notwithstanding, here is how I understand the OP's issue.

He has a 120 volt welder. When he plugs it into a "normal" outlet (15 ampere) it "blows the fuse" (i.e., trips the overcurrent device). So, he has determined that a higher capacity, 20 ampere, overcurrent device (breaker) should be installed on the circuit and the wire from the breaker box to the outlet should be sized accordingly, say 10 ga copper.

Inasmuch as the circuit is 120 v, 10-2 with separate ground is reasonable. Normal configuration would be two insulated solid conductors, one with white insulation and one with black insulation, and a bare copper ground wire.

For some reason, he bought/was sold 10-2 red/black with bare ground. There would be less confusion if the OP simply would buy a length of the std configuration cable, which is not expensive for a short length. Either return the other, sell it on Craig's list, or frame it and chalk it up to a learning experience.

With the correct cable, in the box: black to new 120v 20A breaker, white to neutral bar (where there are other whites) and bare to neutral bar where other bare wires are.

Now, route the cable (properly) to the outlet. This should be a single outlet in a work box, flush or surface. The outlet should be NEMA 5-20R (see attached jpg) with the black wire attached to the darker/copper colored terminal, the white to the lighter/silver colored terminal, and the bare wire to the green terminal (and the workbox grounding screw if it's a metal workbox).

Because this 5-20R can accommodate either a 20A (i.e. NEMA 5-20P) or an ordinary 15A plug, no need to do anything to the welder plug (assuming it is in good shape).

I believe the OP more or less knew what had to be done (new, bigger breaker and cable to the receptacle) but didn't/doesn't quite understand how to do it and got further confused by acquiring the "wrong" wire. Perhaps as others have said, the "wrong" wire could be used my using the red as white and marking appropriately at each end...but, why bother?

What was unsaid, above, is the need to replace the receptacle in the workbox to the NEMA 5-20R (see jpg).

That said, get an electrician.

 

[BobRip]

No question, the best advice is a licensed electrician. Notwithstanding, here is how I understand the OP's issue.

He has a 120 volt welder. When he plugs it into a "normal" outlet (15 ampere) it "blows the fuse" (i.e., trips the overcurrent device). So, he has determined that a higher capacity, 20 ampere, overcurrent device (breaker) should be installed on the circuit and the wire from the breaker box to the outlet should be sized accordingly, say 10 ga copper.

Inasmuch as the circuit is 120 v, 10-2 with separate ground is reasonable. Normal configuration would be two insulated solid conductors, one with white insulation and one with black insulation, and a bare copper ground wire.

For some reason, he bought/was sold 10-2 red/black with bare ground. There would be less confusion if the OP simply would buy a length of the std configuration cable, which is not expensive for a short length. Either return the other, sell it on Craig's list, or frame it and chalk it up to a learning experience.

With the correct cable, in the box: black to new 120v 20A breaker, white to neutral bar (where there are other whites) and bare to neutral bar where other bare wires are.

Now, route the cable (properly) to the outlet. This should be a single outlet in a work box, flush or surface. The outlet should be NEMA 5-20R (see attached jpg) with the black wire attached to the darker/copper colored terminal, the white to the lighter/silver colored terminal, and the bare wire to the green terminal (and the workbox grounding screw if it's a metal workbox).

Because this 5-20R can accommodate either a 20A (i.e. NEMA 5-20P) or an ordinary 15A plug, no need to do anything to the welder plug (assuming it is in good shape).

I believe the OP more or less knew what had to be done (new, bigger breaker and cable to the receptacle) but didn't/doesn't quite understand how to do it and got further confused by acquiring the "wrong" wire. Perhaps as others have said, the "wrong" wire could be used my using the red as white and marking appropriately at each end...but, why bother?

What was unsaid, above, is the need to replace the receptacle in the workbox to the NEMA 5-20R (see jpg).

That said, get an electrician.

Good summary, Joe

 

[NuBota]

Ampa, since the other questions have been answered many times over, figured I'd say something about the plug on your welder

I have a small FCAW welder that has the typical 15A/125V plug on the end (NEMA 5-15p). The manual says that a 15A circuit is fine if I use the lower heat settings, but that I need 20A if I use the highest. Since I have a dedicated 20A available, I just use it.

I would imagine this is similar to your situation - and that is probably what Lincoln will tell you.

 

[ampa]

Although I have'nt connected anything as of yet,because ol' man winter is still with us in cold country Canada, I'm in no hurry to do any welding outside as of yet,I will get back to everyone as promised on how this Lincoln works on a 20 amp circuit,I have learned a whole lot,and appreciate all the sound advice givin' to me,I now know you all gave me,the best information available,I took some the wrong way,and bein' stubborn is no excuse to how I reacted,I'm ever so glad to belong to such a great forum and such a good bunch of people/guys.... as always take care everyone....Ampa :thumbsup:

 

[SPYDERLK]

Steve, Keep in mind that finer wire (or stranded as it's called in the Trade) is a plus, but it's more about the type of insulation used on the wire and the listed use of the cable or cord.... Rubber cords are often listed to carry more Amps then cables listed to be concealed in walls. Keep in mind that cords can dissipate heat better in the open. That same cord installed in an insulated wall can build up heat and create a fire hazard... One should also consider wire size, load and distance to prevent Voltage Drop...

I had to get one shot in at the regulators, thats par for the course isn't it?

Steve

I think you two have done a good job summing it up and weeding out the uncertainties that have gotten mixed in. :confused2:
As far as I can tell the OP just wants to run a 110V welder outside thru a 10/2 w ground ext cord. There is a single duplex outlet right beside the service panel. This outlet is served by a 15A breaker thru a 2' long exposed 14ga romex cable that serves nothing else. He has posed a plethora of options that have taken the thread global, but among them is just putting a 20A breaker on that single feed. Definitely out of code, but definitely adequate in the special circumstance. The other easy option is to rewire that duplex with 12ga while installing the 20A breaker. The only further upgrade I see that code would require would be a 15/20A duplex [GFI duplex or breaker if wet] in place of the generic duplex already there. With the dwelling owners permission it wouldnt cost much with his electrician friend helping ... and then have it inspected to cover.
larry

 

[ampa]

Long Story Short....the landlord just gave us 120 days to move as he says he's renovating the whole house due to my complaining about the electrical panel and other things,so I won't be able to give any info on the set up,may even have to sell my ol' Iseki tractor, unless I can rent a townhouse for about the same rent as here,rents are goin' sky high up around this area,buyin; a house for me and my lady is not a good option,as I'm too old to get a morgage,so as it stands,I may be out in the street or livin' out of my van,I'm not just kidding,anyhow guys I'd hate to lose my tractor that I've put so much time and money into "NO" guys it was my own fault for complaing,so I must now live with it,I hope that I can still come back to chat,even though I maybe won't have a tractor,but the memories I'll cherish,take care all,Ampa