Hydrostatic vs shuttle shift

[JRTJH]

I've got a Hydro, used to have a shuttle shift, will NEVER go back. At 78, my knees, leaning forward and shifting between F/R is a hassle. Much easier to just move my toes with my heel planted on the rubber deck. Maybe I'm lazy, but ..... My tractor is 14 years old, I've never had any issue with the hydro, but I do keep up with filter replacement and hydraulic fluid changes as recommended. It's not that the tractor is "finicky" rather that I don't want to "introduce problems by skipping maintenance". So far, almost 900 hours and it's never been back to the dealer for anything but a tire change.

Also, something I have not seen (maybe I missed it) is that some 3 point implements don't work well with a shuttle shift. I recently bought a MechMaxx stump grinder. They recommend "hydro drive only" in their sales information. After grinding 45 or 50 stumps last year after our ice storm, I can readily confirm that if you're using a 3 point implement that requires an extremely slow forward speed (like around 12" per minute) like that stump grinder, trying that with a shuttle shift, well, that wouldn't be much fun.

You may never need that kind of slow speed, but if buying a new tractor, shuttle vs hydro, all things being equal, why limit one of the tractor's capabilities ??? YMMV

 

[TORQUIN]

What I have to say about it is, I am quite happy with my GST transmission. This Kubota tranny is essentially a synchronized transmission with an automatic clutch, and auto-ranging. It has a shuttle shift also. That means I can change gears at any time, any speed, with or without a clutch, and I can go from 1st to 12th if I want to and the tractor handles everything with no grinding. 12 forward speeds and 8 reverse. Very happy with it because I don't lose any HP to the transmission. However, when going back and forth a lot, it is not as convenient as the HST.

Chris

 

[broadsword6]

We have 100 acres of specialty hay crop, pasture and about 10 acres of maple bush to look after here in Eastern Ontario; oh, and 600m of driveway. We have owned five different tractors, three with HST and two gear/shuttle shift. The field/utility tractor is a cabbed 66hp Branson with gear drive and the small utility tractor has tended to be 35 -45 hp NH Boomer 45hp or Branson 35hp. Both tractors are now Branson gear/shuttle drive. I am 66yo and ex Infantry (28 years) so I have all the legacy injuries that go with jumping out of airplanes and chasing bad guys around.

I am puzzled by a couple of things in this conversation; first the idea that HST is better if one has injuries to contend with, and secondly the need for rapid direction and speed change.
Having had both HST and Shuttle on a variety of platforms, admittedly with functioning cruise controls, I found that it was not so much the foot controls that dictated operator comfort, but the general layout of the operator station (the human factors engineering). It seemed to me that no matter the transmission operating system, the operator HF is the driving factor to comfort. A lot of our tasks require us to look over our shoulders at the implement. Some operator stations enable that with ease while others are badly laid out and cause ones knees or elbows to come in contact with controls they should not contact while doing that. Knees on the steering column while checking the snow blower is a common one I have found.

The second puzzler is the need to switch direction (forward to backwards) quickly. We did a lot of earthmoving over the years while rebuilding our farm following a serious house fire. While I loved the hi/lo button on the loader stick on the NH45, it was only marginally more efficient than switching range and shuttle direction on the Branson 35 loader tractor we have now. I think for most of us, seat time is relaxing and contemplative. As a practicing engineer I have solved some of the knottiest problems while getting seat time. I even sketched out the structure for a book on the inside of the cab window with a grease pencil once! My point is that if we seek the peace of doing our chores with a tractor, why are we in such a hurry? Reducing revs to change the shuttle introduces a comforting rhythm to the work in my experience. If I want frenetic driving I will go to the city.

Finally, I notice that there is little mention of the power penalty for HST. While it is improving all the time, HST transmissions still typically deliver 15%-18% less power to the ground for the same engine HP. In a lot of cases this is not a significant drawback, but on our farm where the equipment must move commercial square bales, grade the driveway, blow the snow, mow the pastures, operate a timber winch and a 7" wood chipper, it is. The Branson 66 shuttle will do all that no problem; the Branson 35ih (HST) would not. We switched the 35ih for a new 35 gear drive and the difference was night and day. Both tactors can now do all the work (apart from chipping) so in effect we almost doubled our work force.

IMHO, and largely in agreement with the much more experienced voices on this forum, choose the tractor that suits the purpose but pay particular attention to how the operator station is laid out. Turn around in the seat and see what your elbows and knees bang into. Try and operate the draft controls in that position. Try and keep contact with the HST pedals or reach and operate the clutch. The power penalty only really matters for some. In our case it really mattered. In yours it might not.

Hope that was useful

 

[racerric]

I bought and enjoyed a shuttle shift 38hp tractor 19 yrs ago, but I'm 78 and thinking I'd like to end my days with a new tractor. Most now seem to be hydrostatic. I just talked with my brother-in-law who has both transmissions and he recommended staying with shuttle shift. I do some mowing and he says his hydrostatic gets way too hot when mowing. He likes it when doing dirt work and moving hay, etc. but not for something where you'll be driving it steady for a long time. It seems the dealers around here are mostly pushing hydrostatic. What's your experience?

I am 74 and have a E-Hydrostatic JD 3520 and love it. Even my wife can use it. Use it for property work in summer and plow & snow blow in winter. With a cab with AC and heat....awesome.

 

[JimR]

I am a 66 year old homeowner with 34 acres. I mow about 109 acres, some with a bush-hog. I agree that overheating is a sign that I need

to buy a bigger tractor. I over-heated my BX24 while mowing, to the point that the power steering line melted a hole in my plastic fuel tank and damaged the hst valve blocks! First problem was that I needed a bush-hog but was using a belly mower. I have a bush-hog now, but still run hotter than I like. Second is that I need a larger tractor! I love my BX, but I need to buy a bigger machine this year.

Sounds like my old neighbor when he was trying to mow 12-24" field grass with his JD 430 diesel lawnmower with a 60" deck. He wondered why he was having so many problems. I asked him if he would pull his 4 horse trailer with his Cadillac CTS. He was like, are you crazy. I didn't need to say anything else.

 

[mikester]

Why do you say a hydrostatic transmission has to be run at full engine RPMs?

To clarify:
General rule-of-thumb if you have DPF you are better running your machine at higher RPMs, avoid lugging the engine, match your RPM's to work done i.e. when I'm running the snowblower or mower I set the RPM's for 540PTO speed and turn off auto-throttle.

If I'm just driving around the yard I tend to use auto-throttle. If I'm doing heavy loader/backhoe work and fast response times are required I use higher RPMs.

M59 gives you extra features like stall-guard and auto-throttle so you can fudge needing to adjust the throttle. More basic HST machines rely on the operator to adjust the throttle and higher RPMs means more power to the wheels and more responsive controls. At low RPMs you risk lugging the engine.

If you really want to have fun, some HST dozers give you a hand throttle to set at high RPM for work and a foot decelerator pedal if you need to slow down.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

one comment on the subject. for those who use Utility sized tractors, nearly all are geared (w/hyd or shuttle shift). hydro is rarely seen on larger utility machines for good reason, regards

Yep, but not many new utilities have only 38 HP ... Like the OP has, however they didn't say if they were looking to stay the same size, or bigger or smaller?

 

[jyoutz]

We have 100 acres of specialty hay crop, pasture and about 10 acres of maple bush to look after here in Eastern Ontario; oh, and 600m of driveway. We have owned five different tractors, three with HST and two gear/shuttle shift. The field/utility tractor is a cabbed 66hp Branson with gear drive and the small utility tractor has tended to be 35 -45 hp NH Boomer 45hp or Branson 35hp. Both tractors are now Branson gear/shuttle drive. I am 66yo and ex Infantry (28 years) so I have all the legacy injuries that go with jumping out of airplanes and chasing bad guys around.

I am puzzled by a couple of things in this conversation; first the idea that HST is better if one has injuries to contend with, and secondly the need for rapid direction and speed change.
Having had both HST and Shuttle on a variety of platforms, admittedly with functioning cruise controls, I found that it was not so much the foot controls that dictated operator comfort, but the general layout of the operator station (the human factors engineering). It seemed to me that no matter the transmission operating system, the operator HF is the driving factor to comfort. A lot of our tasks require us to look over our shoulders at the implement. Some operator stations enable that with ease while others are badly laid out and cause ones knees or elbows to come in contact with controls they should not contact while doing that. Knees on the steering column while checking the snow blower is a common one I have found.

The second puzzler is the need to switch direction (forward to backwards) quickly. We did a lot of earthmoving over the years while rebuilding our farm following a serious house fire. While I loved the hi/lo button on the loader stick on the NH45, it was only marginally more efficient than switching range and shuttle direction on the Branson 35 loader tractor we have now. I think for most of us, seat time is relaxing and contemplative. As a practicing engineer I have solved some of the knottiest problems while getting seat time. I even sketched out the structure for a book on the inside of the cab window with a grease pencil once! My point is that if we seek the peace of doing our chores with a tractor, why are we in such a hurry? Reducing revs to change the shuttle introduces a comforting rhythm to the work in my experience. If I want frenetic driving I will go to the city.

Finally, I notice that there is little mention of the power penalty for HST. While it is improving all the time, HST transmissions still typically deliver 15%-18% less power to the ground for the same engine HP. In a lot of cases this is not a significant drawback, but on our farm where the equipment must move commercial square bales, grade the driveway, blow the snow, mow the pastures, operate a timber winch and a 7" wood chipper, it is. The Branson 66 shuttle will do all that no problem; the Branson 35ih (HST) would not. We switched the 35ih for a new 35 gear drive and the difference was night and day. Both tactors can now do all the work (apart from chipping) so in effect we almost doubled our work force.

IMHO, and largely in agreement with the much more experienced voices on this forum, choose the tractor that suits the purpose but pay particular attention to how the operator station is laid out. Turn around in the seat and see what your elbows and knees bang into. Try and operate the draft controls in that position. Try and keep contact with the HST pedals or reach and operate the clutch. The power penalty only really matters for some. In our case it really mattered. In yours it might not.

Hope that was useful

The pto power loss from HST isn’t really an issue if you buy the right size and HP machine. My tractor still delivers 50+ pto hp even with HST.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

Exactly!

If you need "X" amount of PTO HP, then buy a tractor with at least that much PTO HP ... Will you burn a couple more drops of diesel, probably, but cheaper than knee surgery!

 

[Tkekic]

I bought and enjoyed a shuttle shift 38hp tractor 19 yrs ago, but I'm 78 and thinking I'd like to end my days with a new tractor. Most now seem to be hydrostatic. I just talked with my brother-in-law who has both transmissions and he recommended staying with shuttle shift. I do some mowing and he says his hydrostatic gets way too hot when mowing. He likes it when doing dirt work and moving hay, etc. but not for something where you'll be driving it steady for a long time. It seems the dealers around here are mostly pushing hydrostatic. What's your experience?

I have one of each. My newer one is a Kioti NS 6010 Hydro. My M7060 Kubots is a shuttle. I wanted the new one to be a shuttle but could not find what I needed in a pre tariff tractor. I too am concerned how the hydro will do hay raking or brush hogging. The Kubota does either like a champ. The hydro is great for loader work or snow plowing so far.

 

[rScotty]

I have a 1987 yanmar 187d shuttle shift. Snow blowing I leave the throttle maxed out for pto and never use my left foot. Shuttle shift on the column. Forward to reverse abuse for the last 39 years no service other than oil changes. That stands for something.

It must be a hydraulic shuttle and that’s way different than a shuttle that you have to use the clutch to shift between forward and reverse.

We had one of those old Yanmars . It was not just a shuttle shift, it was a full powershift on the column.
It worked by electric gear selection on the column driving a set of hydrualic shifting clutches inside the transmission. Very smooth. Instant smooth syncronized shifting between any gears.

The Yanmar power shift on the column control could act both as a power shifter and as a shuttle.
The range was selected by a lever on the floor, and then all shifting beween neutral & R,1,2,3, was done with that lever on the column.
Also, there was a manual foot clutch available on a floor pedal - although it was rarely used.
Some hydrostatic transmissions today still have that manual foot clutch, but not many.

That brings up an interesting point. To me it seems to me that shuttle and power shifts sold today have not kept up with the advances in techncology as well as the hydrostats. Some shuttles now require manual clutching or lever shift between F&R. And few - if any - compacts combine full electric-over-hydraulic shuttle with power shift.

There also seems to be more variation in what we call a simple "shuttle shift". Some are more automatic than others.
rScotty

 

[Lastkidpicked]

If you buy a shuttle shift, make sure that your daily driver has a solid turn signal stalk, or you will rip it off the first time you try to back up your car after having been on the tractor for any significant amount of time.

HA! I was wondering who would say this first.

The flip side is I worry about roading a shuttle shift to the gas station or whatnot, and when I make a left turn, yanking the shuttle shift lever as if it were a turn signal!

 

[Shawn T. W.]

Seems majority of drivers don't know what a turn signal even is, or how to operate it ...

 

[4tillingdirt]

When using a loader, does a power shuttle (PS) behave pretty much like a hydro? Do you still have to clutch it with the PS when working a pile of rocks, multch, etc?

 

[rScotty]

When using a loader, does a power shuttle (PS) behave pretty much like a hydro? Do you still have to clutch it with the PS when working a pile of rocks, multch, etc?

I've owned both, and think they do the same work but differently. Maybe it will help if I describe going about the common job of using the FEL to move a pile of dirt.

First thing to know is that most compact tractors with power shift has a manual clutch, it's just that it is automaticsally clutched when you shift through forward gears (but usually not when you shift ranges). And Power Shuttles don't all have the same sort of clutch. Some have a regular foot clutch in addition to the power shift, although most will also have the automatic clutch that is triggered by either the shifting motion or by finger pressure on the power shifting lever.

Some power shifts - particularly larger tractors - do not have the same automatic manual clutch as compact tractors, but instead they have a torque converter. Torque converters cost horsepower. so those power shifts are usually found on tractors over roughly 65 hp and on up.

With our JD and Yanmar power shuttles I would either choose a very low gear or use the clutch at least for the difficult part of each bucket fill. If the pile was at all tough, I'd use the clutch several times as I inched into the pile. When the bucket is full enough, some power shuttles require you to use the clutch when you shift into reverse to back away from the pile as you are lifting the bucket load ....and some do not need any special operator clutching for reverse because they automatically clutch when you make that shift from forward to reverse - just like they automatically clutch for you when shifting going forward.

By "Hydro" I think you mean a Hydrostatic Transmission - a HST. With the HST transmission very few tractors have any sort of a clutch....a few do, mostly as a safety for starting the engine, but it's rare.
Mine does, but even so, I don't use the clutch our HST except for startup, never touch it after that. The foot pedal that controls the HST automatically changes the internal gearing and the throttle to give the maximum drive force for that the pedal position. As I approach the pile of dirt and drive into it all the changes in speed and torque are done by the tractor in response to slight movements of the foot pedal.

I much prefer the HST for loader work. It is effortless.

But power shift works just fine, a few more motions perhaps, but it becomes instinctive.
Power shift is often less expensive than HST - and he Power Shift does have an efficiency advantage. Slightly more engine horse power goes to the tires with power shift than with HST. So it is more economical of fuel and power.

I really liked our old power shift with the fingertip clutch....but after getting a HST, it is even easier to use for FEL work and for any type of quick chore work or lawn mowing. For mowing a big field or plowing or any tillage work...or for towing a trailer up and down a lot of hills, the powershift might get the nod. At least from me.

Hope this helps,
rScotty

 

[Highlandr]

With the HST transmission very few tractors have any sort of a clutch....a few do, mostly as a safety for starting the engine, but it's rare.
Mine does, but even so, I don't use the clutch our HST except for startup, never touch it after that.

The NH TC33 with HST that I had had a clutch. The only thing it was used for was the PTOs. Push in the clutch, engage the PTO and let the clutch out. 2000 model.

 

[bridge4]

The key to the HST in loader work is that it can stop and reverse or forward with nothing but lifting or pushing your foot. All the other transmissions will either stall out, or keep going in the direction you wanted to change without extra effort. It's slower, annoying as hell and harder to do tight, precision work. If I was a big farmer putting GPS in and hitting cruise, who cares. But as a real person with small random jobs, I would never, in anyway, own any machine that doesn't work like an HST transmission. Its dummy proof (can't fix stupid), easy to control no matter what direction you are facing, which way you want to go etc... Maybe I'm a bad operator, maybe I'm lazy, I dunno, but it works for me and I can't imagine doing it the other way.

 

[ptsg]

I'll be honest, I struggle hard to understand what's so hard or complicated on a shuttle transmission. Or why it can't do precision work or all the other myths spread all over the internet.

Last summer I was setting 4 meter long concrete beams between two walls with less than an 30 mm to spare on the sides. All of this while working on a 15 degree hill and dodging an orange in the process. No issues whatsoever. Didn't even scratch any of the walls.

What's more interesting, is that it takes about the same time for me to change directions on my shuttle transmission as it would moving my foot from the forward pedal to the reverse pedal on a HST.

The best part of a geared transmission is that one can actually use the tractor to the full potential.

 

[Bootlegger750]

If you do a ton of loader work I guess a Hydrostatic might be ok. I personally don’t like them, but that’s why they make geared ones I don’t use my loader much. I mostly bush hog, plow, disc, grade my road. I do more field work basically.

 

[Highlandr]

I'll be honest, I struggle hard to understand what's so hard or complicated on a shuttle transmission. Or why it can't do precision work or all the other myths spread all over the internet.

I don't know how we got it done back when. Manual transmission, shifter between your knees...

Square baler. Small square baler with the hay wagon behind that. It's a wonder we didn't all die.

I do like HST though.