Careful with gasoline purchase

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A couple years ago, epa changed ethanol amounts in certain states. My state of Rhode Island was not listed.
Yesterday, a customer came in with his little used 4 month old Stihl 261 with a hole in the piston. He said it started screaming and then just shut down. The cylinder wall was scored along with the hole in the piston..
So we tested his fuel mix. It came back with 16% ethanol.
Places like 7/11, Safeway, Stop and Shop gas stations have been getting ethanol 15 without notice to the general public.
Shell and Mobil maintain 10%.
If you are mixing your own fuel for 2 cycle engines, check to see if your state is allowing E-15 at second tier gas stations.
Stihl covered the customers saw under warrantee seeing it wasn’t his fault that he didn’t know his purchase was E-15.
I think no one knows in my state.

 

[CalG]

Logic can see no reason why E15 would hole a piston!

But an air leak will.

The cylinder studs on my husky came loose last fall. It's a good thing I recognize lean running when I hear it.

15 minutes to tighten four studs, and the saw is just fine today!

 

[Shawn T. W.]

I just buy the no ethanol 100% gas for mine, in Missouri that's 91 octane.

 

[sd455dan]

Logic can see no reason why E15 would hole a piston!

But an air leak will.

The cylinder studs on my husky came loose last fall. It's a good thing I recognize lean running when I hear it.

15 minutes to tighten four studs, and the saw is just fine today!

Well running higher ethanol % through any carbed engine will cause a leaner mixture . Jet sizes generally need to be increased in diameter/ richened when increasing the amount of ethanol. It also contains oxygen so lean again.


Had to laugh maybe the EPA and AI is useful for once:

"it is illegal under Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulations to use E15 fuel in chainsaws, lawnmowers, and other small engines. E15 is only approved for 2001 and newer passenger vehicles. Using E15 in chainsaws causes them to run hotter, damage parts, and voids warranties.
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (.gov)
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (.gov)
+3
Key Details Regarding E15 and Small Engines:
Prohibited Equipment: The EPA prohibits E15 (15% ethanol) in all non-road engines, including chainsaws, string trimmers, generators, boat engines, and snowmobiles.
Why It's Banned: Ethanol is a solvent that can damage rubber and plastic components, while the higher alcohol content can lead to overheating and engine failure in small, two-stroke engines like those in chainsaws.
Legal Standing: The EPA classifies the use of E15 in unauthorized equipment as a violation of regulations."

Above said I just had the same thing you describe above with one of the 350 Husky's, the cylinder bolts loosening up and went fully lean rev until fixed.

Glad our Co Op caries 91 octane zero ethanol gasoline. mix it with Good Old Bel Ray MC-1 for all of the two strokes at 45 : 1

ps. May have gone saw crazy, buying a 2511 Echo clone, and finally laid out all of the Farmertec 660 parts and hopefully start building it this week, are six saws too much or not enough?

 

[muskieken13]

pure-gas.org is a site dedicated to one, simple task: to list the gas stations in the U.S. and Canada that serve ethanol-free gasoline.

Why pure gas?​

Many cars, motorcycles, boats, aircraft and tools have engines that run worse, or have parts that deteriorate, when run on gasoline that contains ethanol. In addition, ethanol leaves residue on valves and other parts that can hinder performance.

Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada

Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.

www.pure-gas.org

just sharing this, it's hard to find real gas now.

 

[arrow]

Logic can see no reason why E15 would hole a piston!

But an air leak will.

The cylinder studs on my husky came loose last fall. It's a good thing I recognize lean running when I hear it.

15 minutes to tighten four studs, and the

All seals were intact as two things come to mind: What you describe, ( air leak) hence the seal check, or a fuel problem.
In this case it was an overheat caused by using E15 causing an exceedingly lean condition.
When we contacted Stihl, they verified the situation.
Now you know at least two things that can ruin a chainsaw.
Some ppl also like to use more oil thinking more is better but this can also lean out a fuel mix.

 

[CalG]

Engines that run on alky need lots of fuel, but the alky tends to "over cool".

Competing characteristics I suppose.

I do tend to run my saws "fat", so there is a buffer if "bad gas" made it's way into my cans.

 

[arrow]

Engines that run on alky need lots of fuel, but the alky tends to "over cool".

Competing characteristics I suppose.

I do tend to run my saws "fat", so there is a buffer if "bad gas" made it's way into my cans.

It’s the oxygen content that if not over come by more fuel, sets up as a mini oxygen torch burning through the piston. That, is the twist to the logic.
The competing problems are: does the customer mix oil rich thinking it’s better for the engine creating a more lean condition. Two, most small engines are set lean from the factory for cleaner epa burn, and three, the use of E 15.
Possible “Perfect storm”.

 

[CalG]

It’s the oxygen content that if not over come by more fuel, sets up as a mini oxygen torch burning through the piston. That, is the twist to the logic.
The competing problems are: does the customer mix oil rich thinking it’s better for the engine creating a more lean condition. Two, most small engines are set lean from the factory for cleaner epa burn, and three, the use of E 15.
Possible “Perfect storm”.

alcohol IS fuel.

E10 (10% Ethanol/90% Gas): ~14.1:1

Stoiciometric ratio

Opposed to 14.7 for gasoline.

I didn't come across E15 data.

 

[arrow]

You can look up all the air fuel ratios till the cows fart methane and destroy the planet.
I’m trying to explain to you how this customers chainsaw had a hole in the piston.
E10, 15 or whatever has oxygen. E0 has none.
Does alcohol run cooler?…yes
Can oxygenated fuel run leaner?…yes
Can a lean condition cause excessive heat within a combustion chamber?…yes
Can xcssive heat within a combustion chamber put a hole in an aluminum or magnesium piston?….yes

 

[bdhsfz6]

I don't use gas that contains ANY ethanol in my small engines. I use synthetic fuel, like Tru Fuel, for small jobs and switch to ethanol free 93 octane gas for larger ones. Luckily, it's still available locally.

Another thing to watch for is the common hose, used at most gas pumps, for dispensing different fuel grades. The hose can contain a gallon or more of the previously pumped gas. To be safe, when selecting ethanol free gas, it's always a good idea to put the first gallon or so in your vehicles tank to purge the hose before filling your gas cans.

 

[Noah]

I use ethanol shield and non-ethanol 91 octane fuel for all my small engines. I have been doing this for over 25 years. I have two husky chainsaws that are 28+ years old that have never had to have a carburetor adjustment other than after break in. In many places recreational fuel is available from a dedicated pump, no purging lines necessary. One other thing is not to let mixed fuel hang around for longer than 6 to 8 weeks. I mix a gallon at a time so fuel is always fresh. If I have to mix a second batch in a day that’s better than having to replace or rebuild a chainsaw or small engine.

 

[WilliamBos]

A couple years ago, epa changed ethanol amounts in certain states. My state of Rhode Island was not listed.
Yesterday, a customer came in with his little used 4 month old Stihl 261 with a hole in the piston. He said it started screaming and then just shut down. The cylinder wall was scored along with the hole in the piston..
So we tested his fuel mix. It came back with 16% ethanol.
Places like 7/11, Safeway, Stop and Shop gas stations have been getting ethanol 15 without notice to the general public.
Shell and Mobil maintain 10%.
If you are mixing your own fuel for 2 cycle engines, check to see if your state is allowing E-15 at second tier gas stations.
Stihl covered the customers saw under warrantee seeing it wasn’t his fault that he didn’t know his purchase was E-15.
I think no one knows in my state.

The gas was not the cause of this. Was there an air leak that leaned it out too much?

 

[tacticalturnip]

This was a fascinating read.

 

[Racer4]

I will never put E15 in any of my small engines. E10 is bad enough when I did use it. My toro mower says this on the gas cap:

I’ve been using E0 for many years, so I don’t have issues anymore. The pickiest was my Wheel Horse with the Kohler command.

Just finished up a can of my 2 stroke mixed gas that was probably 18 months old. Ran fine in my blower, saw, and trimmer. Cans are kept in my shed.

 

[RayIN]

Every small engine I've ever bought since the advent of ethanol-blended gasoline, has stated in the operators manual "do not use gasoline containing ethanol". My cousin bought a new stihl saw 3 yrs ago and only buys the Stihl fuel in qt. cans.

 

[tacticalturnip]

I am fortunate to have a local ethanol-free pump, that much is certain.

 

[newbury]

ps. May have gone saw crazy, buying a 2511 Echo clone, and finally laid out all of the Farmertec 660 parts and hopefully start building it this week, are six saws too much or not enough?

Please don't spread that rumor!
Echo 2511 Clone 25CC
Echo 35CC
Stihl 181 32CC
Stihl 021 35CC
Holzfforma 366 59CC
John Deere CS62 62CC
Stihl 066 - 92CC (two of them)
Stihl 088 - 120CC
////////////////////
Electric
DeWalt DCCS62
Harbor Freight 14"
Black n Decker 14"
///////////////////////
As you can see I'm missing something in the 40CC class

 

[arrow]

The gas was not the cause of this. Was there an air leak that leaned it out too much?

Since you obviously had not read the rest of this thread, the chainsaw was checked for any intake air leaks and all seals were found intact.
But you go right ahead and mix up you’re two cycle fuel with e15 if you think no type of fuel can cause this.

 

[arrow]

I will never put E15 in any of my small engines. E10 is bad enough when I did use it. My toro mower says this on the gas cap:

View attachment 5496147

I’ve been using E0 for many years, so I don’t have issues anymore. The pickiest was my Wheel Horse with the Kohler command.

Just finished up a can of my 2 stroke mixed gas that was probably 18 months old. Ran fine in my blower, saw, and trimmer. Cans are kept in my shed.

If there is any truth to the rumor I heard yesterday, (and I hope not) as of May 1st, all fuel sold here will be e15.