Thoughts on mega wind and solar projects

[Phil Timmons]

2. No battery required, nor really desired. It is called Grid-Tie? You must have heard of this? Solar Folks send the surplus up to the Grid during the day (high grid demand time), and then get electricity back at night (surplus grid time). Win-Win for all sides.

In the East, it's called net metering. We had it and it worked great. fast forward to today, some electric companies are shutting that option down. I'm guessing here, but their profits are higher if they shut it down. It wouldn't have made sence for us to go solar when we did if net metering wasn't a factor.

It is called Net Metering here, and most of the US, as well -- generally when Full Credit is given on a 1:1 send and receive at full retail both ways. So that is sort of a sub-set of overall Grid-Tie.

Some areas do what is called "Avoided Cost" (for the Utility) when the small local Solar PV is credited at wholesale price when Solar is sent UP to the Grid, and then charged full retail price for Electricity is taken FROM the Grid.

And then a few areas, only charge Full Retail from the Grid and give NO Credit for Solar sent UP. For many folks, even in this condition, continue Grid Tie to use the Grid as a back up, or small use overnight.

But even those are not the end of complications. To figure out what is the BEST method -- folks still need to consider Time-of-Use plans, and how meter fees and connection fees tie in.

But with all those combinations -- no local batteries are required, but some folks want batteries as a back-up system. Thinking about it all, we have even done some Solar PV sites - without batteries - but add a small local generator, because the customer needs that level of backup around the clock.

In an ideal world, folks would figure out what is best for everyone, and learn to share from their surplus, and accept help as needed. True "Give-and-Take" as it were. However, that tends to cut at least some "Cash Flow" from the Bottom-End to the Top-End investor(s) at the Central Plant(s).

The severe outcome of that is called "Grid Defection" when local folks decide to just disconnect from the Grid (called "Off Grid"), even where the Grid is available. We are starting to see this in California. The severe outcome of this is if the Utility runs off about 10% or more of their customers the Utility may become unprofitable -- and raise prices on the remaining customers -- running off more customers. This is what is the real "Utility Death Spiral."

In the Grid Defection Case, (as well as less than "Net Metering") folks may often try to align their own Time-of-Use with their local Time-of-Production. At most sites we do this with -- easily hit around 70% alignment. That means about 70% of the site's daily use occurs during the 6 to 8 hours of Solar PV production. Doing some projects this Spring Semester at school where we are targeting 90% alignment or more.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Only thing I question, is obviously those that sounds right, and I dont argue July being highest, but I "think" you have random spikes higher, much less predictable, for short periods during Jan.

I dont think ive ever heard of customers being asked to moderate use in July; but a few weeks ago, they did request customers to moderate heat.

Edit: I am surprised to find that only 41% of US homes use electric heat (in multiple forms) as primary heat, and that 47% use gas (propane or natural gas). Natural gas just isnt that available to the home in my part of the world, and (not me) many people dont want it, and actually consider it a negative. Me, if gas distribution came through, I would 100% hook up. Not heat, but stove and biggest would be water heater. Heat pump is fine, it might struggle 5 days per year, but space heaters bridge that gap.

During that bad cold span when it got down to 17, we did keep a fire going in fire place, and it made a real difference.

Yeah, a lot folks have a lot of different perceptions -- which is pretty much why we try to start from understanding and being able to hit the Peak. And then there is also some Peak trimming like requested lower-use, and we even have some industrial sites that have "Peak Shaver" local generation (just idle back-up most of the time), that comes on when premium prices go up.

On the other end of things is the low(er) use time(s), again in all sections of the US this is generally Spring and Fall (no or little Heating and Cooling), and in all sections and seasons -- overnight. Attached is a graphic the US EIA put together a few years ago for the overall US, but the pattern(s) work for all the various sections of US, as well.

Again, if interested, let me know you made it this far, and we can do Time-of-Use and Time-of-Production, because they also play heavy into how low the true baseload is or can get.

 

[bumperm]

I'm looking into putting up a 20-30' flag pole next summer.

Good for you! Being a legal immigrant here, and Navy Vietnam vet, I'm grateful for all the opportunity this great country provided me to work hard and get ahead - not a dime of welfare. I worked hard, sometimes smart, and was successful enough that I don't qualify for VA benefits and that's okay I'll pay my own way. With only 2.5 acres, I do wish I had a bit more land! No windmills to tilt at.

 

[mark in portugal]

Where I live (Southern Portugal) we have very high solar exposure times; grid-tied home pv systems have been popular for 10-15 years.
Mega solar projects (there are many in the country) have a long lead time, with permitting, financing, and infrastructure build. Their contracts for power delivery are signed and sealed based on yesterday's high PV panel prices, thanks to legal eco mandates (and likely corruption).

So today, if I can get a contract to feed my 10 or 15kw excess into the grid, they'll pay around 2-3 Eurocents per kwh. And when I buy it back at night, I have to pay 15-20 cents.

In addition to the inequitable numbers, there is a lot of bureaucracy to get through, as well as taxes. The tax itself is not much, the reporting and filing cost (in my particular case, as a non-employed retired foreigner) takes away the last shred of profit.

So, do I silently inject the large excess power I'll have in summer to the system for free?
My plan is to have an inverter that can be set not to.

If their service is not worth what they charge for it, then I won't buy it. I'll stay connected for a while, but if I find I can easily live without the connection I'll just have it switched off.
I have to admit that from a pure numbers point of view, buying a battery with enough capacity to de-couple from the grid is probably not viable.
I just want it, and I'm at an age where I can be doing what I want to just because it feels good.
And of course, it helps with the grid collapse anxiety; natural disaster, war, whatever.
I've lived without electricity. Didn't like it.

I'd like to keep the grid connection too; if the cost makes sense for us.

 

[Hay Dude]

Good for you! Being a legal immigrant here, and Navy Vietnam vet, I'm grateful for all the opportunity this great country provided me to work hard and get ahead - not a dime of welfare. I worked hard, sometimes smart, and was successful enough that I don't qualify for VA benefits and that's okay I'll pay my own way. With only 2.5 acres, I do wish I had a bit more land! No windmills to tilt at.

View attachment 5017429

Best TBN post I have read in years!

You are a tribute to the goodness of America. Wish more people had your generosity towards others, and grateful attitude to your Country.

Thank You for your sacrifice, and may The Lord be with you always.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Where I live (Southern Portugal) we have very high solar exposure times; grid-tied home pv systems have been popular for 10-15 years.
Mega solar projects (there are many in the country) have a long lead time, with permitting, financing, and infrastructure build. Their contracts for power delivery are signed and sealed based on yesterday's high PV panel prices, thanks to legal eco mandates (and likely corruption).

US Southern Tier of states are about like this.

So today, if I can get a contract to feed my 10 or 15kw excess into the grid, they'll pay around 2-3 Eurocents per kwh. And when I buy it back at night, I have to pay 15-20 cents.

Same numbers we are seeing for new folks in California -- well California retail can be up to double that -- but it is California. And what we are expecting heading East (towards Texas). We sort of look towards that direction to see what is coming our way . . . Weather, Culture, and People. ;P

In addition to the inequitable numbers, there is a lot of bureaucracy to get through, as well as taxes. The tax itself is not much, the reporting and filing cost (in my particular case, as a non-employed retired foreigner) takes away the last shred of profit.

So, do I silently inject the large excess power I'll have in summer to the system for free?
My plan is to have an inverter that can be set not to.

Hybrid Inverters (can route and connect as Grid-Tie, Off-Grid, Battery, and/or Generator) are becoming popular here. That way you can select which way things will go. Two popular brands for US (and Texas in particular) are EG4 and Sol-Ark. Sort of funny, they are both start-ups within a few miles of here -- and now International.

If their service is not worth what they charge for it, then I won't buy it. I'll stay connected for a while, but if I find I can easily live without the connection I'll just have it switched off.
I have to admit that from a pure numbers point of view, buying a battery with enough capacity to de-couple from the grid is probably not viable.

Understood. Battery is generally the LAST thing on my recommends list. If folks really want batteries, my bias is to just start at the minimum spend back-up level, like a UPS, and see how the use goes. It is easy to add (and SPEND) a lot more as things go.

We do have a new company/operator in the game called "Base." Their offer is to come in and put a Grid Tied Battery in at your site -- which works with the Utility and gives you back up and gives the Grid Operator some local reserve capacity -- from your Grid-Tied site. They charge the customer a monthly fee for this.

Here is what I consider the best "Trick" in all of this. Aligning Time-of-Use with Time-of-Production. You probably do some of this already? In the US it has been used for decades by the Utility to get folks to shift towards more Night-Time use, and away from the Day-Time Peak. They give LARGE discounts for Night-Time, here in Texas, we can even get FREE Night-Time options.

Anyway, this alignment can be done on the small "Micro-Grid" or individual level, as well. By shifting ALL the flexible loads -- Heating, Cooling, Refrigeration, EV Charging, etc. into the "Solar Day," we can align up to ALL the local Solar PV available to be used in "real time" without storage nor Grid issues. Our local tests get around 70% alignment without great effort, and some of our kids (students) are doing some test designs this semester to try to hit 90% alignment.

I just want it, and I'm at an age where I can be doing what I want to just because it feels good.
And of course, it helps with the grid collapse anxiety; natural disaster, war, whatever.
I've lived without electricity. Didn't like it.

I'd like to keep the grid connection too; if the cost makes sense for us.

Amazing how much of humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago to an essential part of life now, huh?

As an Electrical Guy, I suppose I should like that -- but I see some real downsides, for US, the World and Humanity in general with that.

 

[Hay Dude]

”Amazing how much of humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago to an essential part of life now, huh?


The US has had electric power generation for well over a century


AI:
The oldest hydroelectric power plant in the USA is the Ames Hydroelectric Generating Plant in Colorado, which was constructed in 1890. It is still operational today, making it one of the longest-running hydroelectric facilities in the country.

 

[Phil Timmons]

”Amazing how much of humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago to an essential part of life now, huh?


The US has had electric power generation for well over a century


AI:
The oldest hydroelectric power plant in the USA is the Ames Hydroelectric Generating Plant in Colorado, which was constructed in 1890. It is still operational today, making it one of the longest-running hydroelectric facilities in the country.

You should like this >>>

HEY HAY HEY!

 

[Hay Dude]

You should like this >>>

HEY HAY HEY!

Figured you’d have a response like that when you make the claim “we had ZERO electricity just 100 years ago”.

Do you teach your students nonsense like that? ;P

Hydroelectricity​

Hydroelectricity, or hydroelectric power, is electricity generated from hydropower. Hydropower supplies 15% of the world's electricity, almost 4,210 TWh in 2023, which is more than all other renewable sources combined and also more than nuclear power. Hydropower can provide large amounts of low-carbon electricity on demand, making it a key element for creating secure and clean electricity supply systems. A hydroelectric power station that has a dam and reservoir is a flexible source, since the amount of electricity produced can be increased or decreased in seconds or minutes in response to varying electricity demand


144 years ago, The earliest hydroelectric power plants began operating in the late 19th century, with the first one being the Vulcan Street Plant in Appleton, Wisconsin, which started generating electricity on September 30, 1882. This plant was significant as it was the first central-station hydroelectric facility to serve private and commercial customers in North America.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Figured you’d have a response like that when you make the claim “we had ZERO electricity just 100 years ago”.


Do you teach your students nonsense like that? ;P

Not what I said --

===========
Amazing how much of humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago to an essential part of life now, huh?
===========

Since you like Artificial Intelligence . . . do you think it will one day replace Sincere Stupidity?

Anyway, the AI pops this up. Enjoy.

-----------------------------
In 1926, the vast majority of rural American homes, which made up a significant portion of the population, did not have electricity.

Rural Areas: Approximately 90% of all farms in the United States did not have electricity in the 1920s.

Overall Electrification: While urban areas were becoming more electrified, only about 35% to 40% of all American households had electricity in the early-to-mid 1920s.

The Situation: Most of the population outside of major cities relied on oil lamps, wood stoves, and manual labor.

 

[Hay Dude]

Not what I said --

===========
Amazing how much of humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago to an essential part of life now, huh?
===========

“Humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago”
I think that’s what you said and it’s just flat out wrong, so…..

Since you like Artificial Intelligence . . . do you think it will one day replace Sincere Stupidity?

Hopefully it’ll replace professors who make up dumb lies!
My guess is AI will replace your way of making a living before my way of making a living.

Anyway, the AI pops this up. Enjoy.

-----------------------------
In 1926, the vast majority of rural American homes, which made up a significant portion of the population, did not have electricity.

Rural Areas: Approximately 90% of all farms in the United States did not have electricity in the 1920s.

How many people lived in rural areas in 1920 compared to cities? Are you forgetting all the people who had electric in cities in 1920? Conveniently, yes you are. Rural is only one way of life, not all.

Overall Electrification: While urban areas were becoming more electrified, only about 35% to 40% of all American households had electricity in the early-to-mid 1920s.

35-40% sure beats ZERO, which is what YOU said, mr professor. Even you can understand that, maybe. ;P

The Situation: Most of the population outside of major cities relied on oil lamps, wood stoves, and manual labor.

But you said “ZERO”, not 35-40% lol and that’s a BIG modification of the truth on your part.

No worries, I had professors lie or “exaggerate” to me in my college days, to put it nicely.
Most of us that knew the real deal just laughed at them. I’m sure you experience that as well. ;P
Profs were just like politicians.

 

[Phil Timmons]

Hey, Hay, Hey.

Real Question. Maybe you might actually know this since you are sort of into the Troll Thing . . .

Is there a block feature on here for you, or does just ignoring you work better?

Thanks!

 

[Hay Dude]

Hey, Hay, Hey.

Real Question. Maybe you might actually know this since you are sort of into the Troll Thing .

There’s a difference between “trolling” and “addressing & correcting BS”. ;P

. .

Is there a block feature on here for you, or does just ignoring you work better?

Thanks!

Can’t take any pushback, eh?

I remember challenging a few of my profs in college. All it got me was unfairly low grades because their egos couldn’t take it when you showed them what they were teaching was wrong. ;P

But to answer your question, yes there is an ignore feature. Members who use it can save their fragile egos from opposing views they cannot refute.

 

[lilranch2001]

I love it when somebody else is in pissing matches and all I have to do is read them!

 

[Phil Timmons]

Can’t take any pushback, eh?

I remember challenging a few of my profs in college. All it got me was unfairly low grades because their egos couldn’t take it when you showed them what they were teaching was wrong. ;P

But to answer your question, yes there is an ignore feature. Members who use it can save their fragile egos from opposing views they cannot refute.

It would seem your "challenge" is in your reading comprehension?

Did any of your profs help with that, or just is the way things are?

Good Luck.

I will be praying for you.

TTFN.

 

[Hay Dude]

It would seem your "challenge" is in your reading comprehension?

“Humanity went from ZERO electricity just 100 years ago”. It was effortless to prove your statement wrong. Very little comprehension was necessary.

Did any of your profs help with that, or just is the way things are?

Good Luck.

I will be praying for you.

Don’t bother. I’m all prayed up.
I really don’t need prayers from a washed prof that’s only way of dealing with pushback is personal insults and cartoons anyway.

TTFN.

GFY ;P

 

[mark in portugal]

When I was a kid, I lived in a coastal village in rural India.
Water was from the well next door, and it had to be pulled 60' up with a rope by hand, then carried about 50 yards to our house.
I did that. I still have the shoulders.
And I know the value of water!

We used candles and oil lamps for light. We had a refrigerator (one of just 2 in the whole village) that ran from LPG. It was often difficult to get the LPG. The road was a half mile from the house, I caried the LPG tank up the hill on my bicycle.

Electricity was brought in some years after I arrived; it didn't work very well. Eventually though, everyone had reigeration, water pumps, even washing machines.

They had cell phones and fiber optic lines before I left.

The point is, I have lived without it; and for most of human existence we did too.
It was ok, but I'd rather not do it again.

Battery prices are still coming down. Hopefully, they'll be really cheap by this time next year, when I'm (hopefully) ready to buy one. Today I'm installing the new heat pump that will replace our 30 year old oil burner. Hopefully, it will run 80-90% on direct solar.

 

[MossRoad]

It’s the agreement that the power company signs for rights of way. They are responsible for maintaining the R.O.W. They are supposed to remove trees that could potentially fall on the lines.

They just came through our neighborhood. I excepted them to butcher our pine tree. Instead, my wife, who was home at the time, said they spent a good 20 minutes with pole pruners and took out some branches near the lines from the ground and pretty much left the tree in tact. It still looks like 'a tree'. I was shocked! (pun intended)

 

[MossRoad]

“Humanity went from ZERO electricity just 100 years ago”. It was effortless to prove your statement wrong. Very little comprehension was necessary.

...

While I avoid interactions with you as much as possible, here's what he wrote...

"Amazing how much of humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago to an essential part of life now, huh?"


Here's what you selected to quote from him...

"Humanity went from ZERO electricity just 100 years ago"

 

[Phil Timmons]

While I avoid interactions with you as much as possible, here's what he wrote...

"Amazing how much of humanity went from ZERO Electricity just 100 years ago to an essential part of life now, huh?"


Here's what you selected to quote from him...

"Humanity went from ZERO electricity just 100 years ago"

Understood. Really did not want to rub his nose in his self-generated nonsense. Figured if we could laugh about it, it may pass. That was the hay-hey-hay thing. I thought that was pretty funny.

Often people with problems, just have problems. And most folks just do the best they can. Thanks on your patience as a moderator. I will try to play and do better.

But back towards the topic -- I think that should be a real concern for US and Humanity -- the rise of total (learned and now practiced) dependence on Electricity. We are really to the point (in just 100 or 150 or whatever years) -- that many folks cannot eat, or drink, or even breath without it.