Generator install - where to start

/ Generator install - where to start #21  
ok, generac is only a manufacturer. They dont install. Anyone can install. Problem is most installers dont service them, even during warranty periods. Better make sure you have a maintenance company thats willing to drive to your place. There are far fewer service tech for liquid cooled units, and even fewer for diesel. You need a true diesel mechanic experiences and training for the large diesel units.


I really have no idea if these generac units, or any other branded diesel units will run on fuel oil. You need to check into that.
 
/ Generator install - where to start #22  
ok, generac is only a manufacturer. They dont install. Anyone can install. Problem is most installers dont service them, even during warranty periods. Better make sure you have a maintenance company thats willing to drive to your place. There are far fewer service tech for liquid cooled units, and even fewer for diesel. You need a true diesel mechanic experiences and training for the large diesel units.


I really have no idea if these generac units, or any other branded diesel units will run on fuel oil. You need to check into that.
#2 heating fuel oil and #2 diesel are approximately the same BTU/gal, and viscosity; where they may differ is in the respective additive packages, as heating oil fuel tends to have more additives geared toward prolonging storage life, and #2 diesel fuels tends to have more additives towards ensuring that the cetane # and lubricity are at the minimum for diesel #2 or better, along with more anti-corrosion and anti-deposit additives. However, "tends" is not the same thing as "is". I know of many parts of the country where heating oil and off-road diesel comes out of the same tank at the distributor, so YMWV.

Lots of folks use one for the other, and in some parts of the country they will be identical, but that will depend on local usage, regulations, and demand. All of New England went for the ULSD standard of sulfur as the definition for heating oil in 2016.

If it is a new generator installation, the generator manufacturer probably has an opinion on allowed fuels.

For the generally limited hours on a residential grid backup generator, I am not sure that I would sweat the difference, but everybody is different. For dedicated, sustained off grid use, I would be adding in additive packages for diesel use.

All the best,

Peter
 
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/ Generator install - where to start #23  
Keep in mind that code says you cannot install a combustion appliance near any operable windows or doors. I don't know the exact specs, but be aware of that for placement. It's a concern about CO, naturally.
FYI: 5' to operable openings is the minimum per NFPA, unless SWRI certified, referenced here;

The above is dependent upon what the local AHJ has adopted, and it may be more restrictive, and/or have additional restrictions, e.g. distance to lot lines, etc.

There is the additional considerations about noise, vibration, and fire risks.

All the best,

Peter
 
/ Generator install - where to start #24  
I have a 24kw Generac that runs on natural gas. It will run my house and my shop which are about 120 ft apart. I have a separate transfer switch on each building. My house is about 1500 sq. ft. and is all electric. My shop has a 600 sq. ft. kitchen/office and lights in the 2400 sq. ft. shop.

I had to run a 1" pipe about 800 ft. from the gas meter to the generator which is located at the back of my shop.

It's a bit hard to explain, but the gas company wanted $12,000 to run the gas down the street in front of my house to the shop. I own the property on the back side of my house and that property goes up to the highway where the gas was already located. So, for a small deposit, the gas company installed a meter about 100' onto my property and I took it from there to my shop which was about 800'. I own a trencher, so it only cost me the cost of the pipe, which was about $1 per ft.

My point is that you can set up a generator to run multiple buildings.

My son in law is a licensed electrician and an authorized Generac dealer/installer, so he did the work.
 
/ Generator install - where to start #25  
I just have to decide if I can tolerate having a generator right out front, outside our kitchen window, versus hiding out back behind the pool and patio where no one can see, hear, or smell it.
I had my 35 KW Generac set 150 away from my power meter / transfer switches because I didn't want it seen coming up the driveway.
I dug the trench for the electrical from power meter location to generator location

You should have someone come out and look at your situation to see if it the generator can be installed in the location of your choice
 
/ Generator install - where to start #26  
Years ago we would lose power averaging about 20 hrs/ year. I bought a 9kW gas generator running a few hours ago day mainly just for well pump & Propane furnaces. A propane vented heat stove will heat the house.
The power company re-routed lines and we've never lost power since.
Neighbors had a Generac system installed with 500 gallon LP tank and never used it.
Maybe check into a PTO generator for the tractor (?).
 
/ Generator install - where to start #27  
A generator install ultimately involves a lot of different sub-contractors; Electrician, gas fitter, gas supply company, general contractor for pad, trenching, etc., maybe even a separate excavation company for trenching, and of course the generator dealer. Oh, and don't forget permits for construction, electrical, and gas.

So I think it comes down to who's going to be the GC, and who will pick the subs.

I expect that more full service generator dealers can also act as GC, and will use their own subs. Or maybe they can't be the GC, and will just tell you what the GC needs to provide for them to park the generator, and when to call them to do the startup after everything is hooked up.

Or you can find your own GC, and they will line up the subs.

Or you can be the GC, use your own preferred subs, and do all the coordination (cat herding) yourself.

If you have a strong preference, then go that route. Otherwise I'd start with the generator dealer, who might also be an electrician, as ask what your options are. Some may only want to GC the whole thing, some may only want to sell, place, and start up the generator, and everything in between.

When I installed one in a previous house, I acted as GC, mostly because I already had good relationships with gas and electric subs who I trusted and knew did quality work. Oh, and the generator dealer should be able to tell you what all the rules are for locating the generator. In my location there were limits on proximity to windows and doors, distance from the building, locations of power disconnectes, etc. Interestingly, the distance from the building depended on whether the generator was in a metal vs plastic enclosure, with metal allowing placement closer to the building.
 
/ Generator install - where to start
  • Thread Starter
#28  
Tons of great info here, guys. So much that, everytime I start typing a reply, a new post pops in that somewhat changes the reply! So sorry I haven't replied to each point, but I really appreciate and have been digesting all of this information.

And yes, this generator will be powering two buildings, but not separately, as the shop is fed off the house mains panel. We actually have 7 breaker panels here, but it all comes thru the one mains panel. The intent is to place one big honkin' transfer switch between the service and the mains panel, and just feed the entire property off one generator. I'm not really sure I care about the cost of the equipment, I suspect the install labor is going to be high enough to densitize me to any change in equipment price, based on size within a brand or series. And I'm only going to want to do this once, no chance to "trade up" later.

As to placement, we have a relatively large garden in front of the house, and I'm due to refresh some of the shrubs in it anyway. If buying a diesel genny and running it on heating oil is advisable, then it makes sense to place the thing there. I'd have to rearrange, and possibly even expand the garden a little bit more, but that's all do-able. But if running on gas, then I'd probably just place the genny out back near the buried propane tank, and run electric ~200 feet around the house.

I do have concerns about starting and feeding a diesel generator on heating oil at -5°F. We rarely have outages in nice weather. :ROFLMAO: Our heating oil tank is in our basement, where it's very warm, so it likely contains no additives for cold weather viscosity or solidification issues.
 
/ Generator install - where to start #29  
Who says a generator needs to be ugly!
20250104_162013.jpg

20240404_082533.jpg

Inside is a little 20kw Cummins sitting on a 150g fuel tank. $4500 cash with only 1000 hours from a Cummins generator dealer. Uses .5-.6 gallons per hour.
 
/ Generator install - where to start #30  
In my case I had this really bad idea that I needed two 200 amp panels in my house. One for the shop/garage and one for the living area. In hindsight, I didn't need two panels. In order to power everything with one generator I'm getting rid of one of the panels. Eventually that power line will go to a new shop that I'm going to build sometime in the future. I'm slowly working on rewiring the shop/garage while converting it into a huge living room. Once done I'll have everything powered off of one 200 amp panel.

Briggs and Stratton make a transfer switch/panel that will work upstream of two 200a panels. That's how my current setup is. See: Briggs & Stratton 400-Amp Split Service Automatic Transfer Switch + AC Shedding (Service Disconnect)
 
/ Generator install - where to start
  • Thread Starter
#31  
Briggs and Stratton make a transfer switch/panel that will work upstream of two 200a panels. That's how my current setup is. See: Briggs & Stratton 400-Amp Split Service Automatic Transfer Switch + AC Shedding (Service Disconnect)
I figured someone would chime in with something like that, as dual 200's seems to be the standard around here, anymore. I don't think a new house has been built in my neighborhood since 1995, with anything other than dual-200's.

I did once look at buying a house that had a single 400A main, which I thought was ideal. I'm not sure why that's not more popular, but at least around here, 2x200A seems to be the much more common approach for larger homes.
 
/ Generator install - where to start #32  
We had our generator installed when our house was built. Went with a 20kw Briggs & Stratton based on the installer/servicer's recommendation (they also sell/service generac and kohler).

We had many trades involved in the install -- propane company to install tank, plumber connected the lines I believe, electrician wired the transfer panel, and generator installer placed it on the pad and did the initial start-up.

Ours powers two panels - we have 400 amp service to the house (two 200a panels), which then splits off 100a to the shop, which sometime this spring will split off 60a from there to our barn. All will be powered by the generator, which is nice. We'll just have to be careful about managing loads ourselves, though the transfer panel does have optional modules for load shedding. It's nice to be able to choose at the time of an outage, vs having to figure out what's "critical" when wiring panels (not that our crappy electricians would have listened anyway)

One thing I've not seen fully touched on here -- look at generator servicers when picking a brand, as you'll want to make sure someone can fix it if needed. At the time, the installer we went through griped about how generac's warranty pays for travel, labor, etc vs briggs. Briggs' was much better at paying the person doing warranty work for their labor, including travel time.
 
/ Generator install - where to start
  • Thread Starter
#33  
Maybe I'm being foolish, but service was honestly the lowest priority on my list of things to consider. I've spent most of my life DIY'ing everything on home and auto, and although I'm looking to have someone else handle the install (due solely to my current schedule), I'm sure I'm just going to end up handling all maintenance and repair myself.

The only reason I might consider factoring service in at all, is for the possibility that I might not be here someday, and my wife or kids might have to deal with the thing. But hopefully that's far enough into the future that the landscape of service pertaining to one brand versus another, might change between enough now and then, to really make it a factor worth considering.
 
/ Generator install - where to start
  • Thread Starter
#34  
Correction to earlier statement: it was 12F, the last time our power went out, because it's 12F outside right now. :ROFLMAO:

This little outage was too quick for a generator to kick in, though. I think it lasted all of 10 seconds.

Someone mentioned storage awhile back, and as much as I hate complicating this house even further, I think it's something I should consider. It would remove most concerns about huge shock loads, as our oldest AC compressor pulls 60 amps for a brief second during startup, as does some of my shop equipment. It would also might allow me to retire a small army of individual UPS systems, assuming I was able to offer similar protection at the whole-house level, although there's more involved with that.

I'm an EE, so no concerns with all of those details. But as mentioned previously, I hate leaving behind complexities that someone else may need to deal with, in the future.
 
/ Generator install - where to start #35  
I bought my own Generac 22K and set up my own pad. I have both an electrician and plumber who worked for me in my construction years help me. After the Gen was set where I placed the pad, I worked as a helper to both of them, doing the digging and at the same time supervising where I wanted holes drilled through my foundation and the smart switches placed on inside wall. The ran the Nat gas line and the wiring to the panel and the smart switches.
It came out great and I probably saved about $4,000-$5,000.
 
/ Generator install - where to start #36  
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/ Generator install - where to start #37  
Ok, somethings fishy here….this is a $2,400 switch. Is this link a reliable site ir something is fishy. This site lists a generac 14 kw with a 200 amp switch for $1700. Ya right, thats like a $5-6 grand product.
Generator Warehouse is one of the largest online store of Generators Equipment in Malaysia. We've been running a business with over 10 years' experience in selling various needs for Generators Equipment.

1770648082985.png
 
/ Generator install - where to start
  • Thread Starter
#38  
Generator Warehouse is one of the largest online store of Generators Equipment in Malaysia. We've been running a business with over 10 years' experience in selling various needs for Generators Equipment.

View attachment 4996666
Malaysia? Check your shipping costs and times. :ROFLMAO:
 
/ Generator install - where to start #39  
I figured someone would chime in with something like that, as dual 200's seems to be the standard around here, anymore. I don't think a new house has been built in my neighborhood since 1995, with anything other than dual-200's.

I did once look at buying a house that had a single 400A main, which I thought was ideal. I'm not sure why that's not more popular, but at least around here, 2x200A seems to be the much more common approach for larger homes.
400A main service panels are substantially more expensive than 2x200A, which may be why you don't see them as much, and it may get many folks into 3 phase which is also not common, and often an expensive addition.
Correction to earlier statement: it was 12F, the last time our power went out, because it's 12F outside right now. :ROFLMAO:

This little outage was too quick for a generator to kick in, though. I think it lasted all of 10 seconds.

Someone mentioned storage awhile back, and as much as I hate complicating this house even further, I think it's something I should consider. It would remove most concerns about huge shock loads, as our oldest AC compressor pulls 60 amps for a brief second during startup, as does some of my shop equipment. It would also might allow me to retire a small army of individual UPS systems, assuming I was able to offer similar protection at the whole-house level, although there's more involved with that.

I'm an EE, so no concerns with all of those details. But as mentioned previously, I hate leaving behind complexities that someone else may need to deal with, in the future.

One thing to reemphasize is that depending on loads, and what state the battery storage system inverter is in, there may be a gap of a couple of seconds during switchover. Some of that delay has to do with how the grid gives up, and how fast it goes out of voltage specification. E.g. a slow droop into brown out may take longer than a sharp cutoff. So, speaking from experience, for critical loads, like life supporting medical equipment, or internet / local servers, you probably still should use / will need UPS units. This has no bearing on your site, but here, about 80+% of the outages happen with no more than a flicker, and the peripheral electronics stay on. For the other outages, the peripheral electronics reboot. How well your devices tolerate the hiccups is going to be very dependent on site specific issues (how your power drops, your wiring, other loads, and the particular equipment).

I think that you can manage the viscosity and flow of heating oil going underground to a diesel. For starters, insulate the pipe, and then also insulate the trench 6-12" each way from the piping, and at least four inches thick. That's pretty routine farther north. Most diesel gensets have options for fuel preheat, as well as engine preheat, so that is probably a worthwhile add for both for your site, if you decide on diesel.

I'm sure that you can take care of the routine service items on a generator. I think an issue to consider is getting warranty support, or a blown part after a storm..., and whether getting routine service might be worth the price of a good relationship with a great service group. As I am sure @grsthegreat can attest, in my experience, good mobile generator service folks tend to drive around with $$$ worth of spare parts on board.

I do take care of my own genset, but that's because it isn't new, and parts are not always easy to source. Plus, I have an oddball generator model because it is both small and supports both 120/240 and 3 phase, something that I couldn't readily obtain new.

As a counter example, I do pay extra for service on my well, because those folks are the only competent folks for well repair in the northern half of California and Nevada, and they have been really great about turning up quickly when we've had an issue. I view the extra cost as a small price to pay for having timely backup for water.

That sort of professional backup might, or might not be worth it to others for generator backup, especially depending on who is doing the work. E.g. My neighbor with a Generac backup system (into 2x200A) no longer uses any local service technicians from the area, and instead uses a crew from 140 miles away. The local folks, plural, couldn't get her generator up and running for six months. For the commercial generator equipment at work, we used the same crew. My personal observation is that generator service requires all the skills of a great mechanic, plus skills pertaining to electrical power generation and regulation, something that not many electricians have a good grasp on in my experience. It is not a job that everybody does well.

As an aside, for those of us that have diesel tractors, I think it is a bit easier to have a diesel generator as we already stock diesel, and keep it fresh and ready to go. Don't get me wrong, I think propane is a great fuel for a backup generator because it does keep indefinitely with no attention, but one needs to have enough on hand for when things go down the tubes, as that often lasts longer than most folks estimate.

All the best,

Peter
 
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/ Generator install - where to start
  • Thread Starter
#40  
WRT fuel...

I'm burning about 1000 gallons of oil per year from a standard 275 gallon tank. It's under contract, the heating oil company shows up every few weeks and keeps it topped off. It rarely ever drops below 100 gallons reserve.

I also have a 500 gallon propane tank burried in the back yard, so even larger than my oil tank. But I only use less than 200 gallons of propane per year, so I watch that one and call in to a supplier to get it filled on-demand. I usually call when I notice it's down near 30%, so I never have less than 150 gallons in reserve... as long as I'm paying attention.

So, on the surface, maybe propane is the safer bet. Less usage, and likely always more reserve on-hand. Also, the propane is hidden back behind the house, where it's probably preferable to mount a generator, rather than sticking the ugly and noisy thing right in my front garden.
 

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