Quickie loader, very slow. WHY?

[jahmes143]

@oldnslo yes, enough space. Just have to cobble together the correct adapter fittings

 

[rScotty]

@oldnslo yes, enough space. Just have to cobble together the correct adapter fittings

For safety, be sure your cobbled fittings are hydraulic type...I think NAPA has them. Hydraulic are usually 3000 psi where standard hardware/plumbing is 800 max.

If you get that flowmeter and can fit it in the line you describe, then you could put a T right in series with the lowmete. That is the best first test point for the the pressure gauge. In fact if you put a T there along with a $20, 5000 psi damped gauge, it can just live there and give you a constant check on the condition of the hydraulics. Plumbed there, it is also useful for estimating weights lifted by the loader and/or 3pt.

I did find a pdf of the operator's manual onlinel. After going through it, I realize that if this isn't easy, we are going to need a hydruaulic diagram for the system. There looks to be more to that hydraulic system than I'd thought.... For example, the PTO actuation, draft control, and some other parts are hydraulic and one version had a hydraulic assist on the clutch. These all have their own relief valves - any of them could be stuck open enough to be stealing flow.

So.... If anyone following along has a workshop manual for the M4700/M5400 & could link to the hydraulic section it would be a big help in finding the right test points.

I agree the first thing is to test the loader control valve as you and oldnslo are doing now. Everything we learn helps. Next step after going through the loader controls would normally be to put the meter in the Power Beyond (PB) port that goes from the FEL loader valve back to the rear end - But only if it is plumbed that way. It may well be plumbed so that the 3pt and rear get the initial pressure from the hydraulic pump and then the FEL loader valve gets flow to its IN port from the rear remotes. That is common in aftermarket loaders.

We probably should have asked how it is plumbed at the onset....the problem could be as simple as the way the remotes are plumbed. The operator manual shows them to be unusual... So check that if you can.
rScotty

 

[oldnslo]

Rscotty
Good point on using hydraulic fittings vs black pipe.

Some things that don’t make sense to me from information provided

If a function is moving slow with little to no pressure required during travel why does the pressure climb to 2500 PSI? If there is an alternate flow path taking majority of the flow when moving under no load it should never build pressure since flow will take the path of least resistance.

That is why asked if could plumb flow meter in pressure line from the pump. That will tell us what the pump is doing

 

[rScotty]

Rscotty
Good point on using hydraulic fittings vs black pipe.

Some things that don’t make sense to me from information provided

If a function is moving slow with little to no pressure required during travel why does the pressure climb to 2500 PSI? If there is an alternate flow path taking majority of the flow when moving under no load it should never build pressure since flow will take the path of least resistance.

That is why asked if could plumb flow meter in pressure line from the pump. That will tell us what the pump is doing

Yes, it isn't making sense to me either.

In post #15 he says, " Pressure is 0 under no load and remains 0 during all functions of the FEL other than it spikes to, and stays at, 2500 when bucket touches ground and raises front wheels off ground."

I agree with you - that is exactly what we expect if measuring pressure from the pump to the FEL control. i.e. zero pressure until he puts on the load of lifting the front, and then the PSI goes up to the relief valve setting and stays there.

Then I looked at the Ops manual and realized we don't know how it is plumbed!! In a normal FEL, the pump goes to the FEL control valve and then via the PowerBeyond Port back to the rear hydraulic functions. But this is an aftermarket add on. On his, the FEL control valve might be plumbed from the remotes, and that would be AFTER the fluid has done whatever it does in the 3pt, draft control, and that screwball hydraulic PTO on/off.

If his Quickie Loader FEL control valve is plumbed from the remotes, could it be that one of those other circuit is leaking enough internally to slow down the loader....but not leaking enough to completely stop it?

If so, where to put the T?
rScotty

 

[jahmes143]

I don't have remotes, i.e., no remote lever below 3pt lever and draft control lever. Maybe that simplifies it??

Will be sure to get proper PSI hydraulic fittings.

I will re-check tomorrow, but I believe the supply and return line are plumbed directly from the pump to the FEL control valve.

 

[rScotty]

I don't have remotes, i.e., no remote lever below 3pt lever and draft control lever. Maybe that simplifies it??

Will be sure to get proper PSI hydraulic fittings.

I will re-check tomorrow, but I believe the supply and return line are plumbed directly from the pump to the FEL control valve.

It certainly does help. Simpler is better..... So where is the FEL valve getting it's pressure? Can you take some photos of that FEL control valve? What I'm trying to do is to confirm whether the hydraulic output from the 4 bolt flange on top of the hydraulic pump goes directly and exclusively to the FEL control valve, or does it do something else.

BTW, from the only illustration that I've found so far (in post #7), shows there are two 4 bolt flanges on the top of that hydraulic pump. If so, I'm guessing that the inner flange goes to drive the loader and from there back to the 3pt, and the outer one would be the power steering.

Oh, I forgot to say to check in the Ops manual and make sure the PTO is turned off. The PTO hydraulic actuating valve is a known source of problems...

rScotty

 

[jahmes143]

 

[jahmes143]

Do those pictures help? Perhaps worth noting...there's a "sound" coming from the fill reservoir with the cap removed. Barely noticeable to the naked ear, but very clear when I insert a tube inside the reservoir and put it to my ear. The sound of liquid. Can't tell if it's a hissing, or a gurgling, or simply the return oil dumping into the reservoir via the return tube. The sound completely and instantly goes away with any movement of the FEL.

Also don't think I mentioned before, 2 functions of the FEL will not operate simultaneously. For example, can't raise and curl, it's one or the other.

 

[rScotty]

Do those pictures help? Perhaps worth noting...there's a "sound" coming from the fill reservoir with the cap removed. Barely noticeable to the naked ear, but very clear when I insert a tube inside the reservoir and put it to my ear. The sound of liquid. Can't tell if it's a hissing, or a gurgling, or simply the return oil dumping into the reservoir via the return tube. The sound completely and instantly goes away with any movement of the FEL.

Also don't think I mentioned before, 2 functions of the FEL will not operate simultaneously. For example, can't raise and curl, it's one or the other.

Yes, the pictures help a lot. We now know that your loader has a typical FEL control valve with what looks to be a power beyond port taking flow to the 3pt. Yours not having the rear remotes does simplify things.

To answer your questions best as I can.....That's clever to listen to the return that way and I'm not surprised you would hear the returning fluid when listening through the full cap. My guess is what you hear seems normal, especially since the return noise should stop when you work the loader and it does. The rest of the noise?? The bubbling?? Well, I am not surprised that there is some suction side air leak in 30 year old hoses, but my guess from the other things you've saidis that any suction leak is not the main cause of the loader being so slow.
Yes, lots of guesses here.

On the curl and raise not working simultaneously - that one is easy. Separating the functions is common when a manufacturer specifies an inexpensive loader control valve. Coupling the functions requires a more complex casting and additional machine work on the spools. So separate functions like you have ust means Quickie Loaders used a generic control valve instead of a more expensive one made to match your tractor. flow You can replace that valve with a better one that will bolt right up someday if you want. A better one will allow feathering both motions at once, and the best valves may also have some degree of internal fluid regeneration - which really does speeds up a loader.
All in all, some small part of the slowness is probably due to that control valve, but the valve shouldn't be slowing motion as much as yours does.

The photos are great! Now we can make some educated guesses, but because yours has power steering we probably still need the hydraulic schematic in the workshop manual for the Kubota M5400, do you have that manual? I can't seem to find one free online. The place I found the operator's manual - attached to post #22 - doesn't have a workshop manual.
However, there is an active market in old manuals on Ebay. Take a look there. The best are the factory workshop manuals - usually in printed form.

Any info we can get from Quickie Loaders about the model 310 loader and Kubota hookup would help too.

1st Photo:
Line 1 is the "P" or pressure line coming either from the hydraulic pump...OR from one side of a priority valve that separates the main hydraulic pump flow into a power steering flow that has priority and then the remaining flow goes to everything else.
Line 2 is the return to the "T" sump or Tank.
Line 3 is the power beyond that goes back to the 3pt. If we could see the side of the valve casting there should be a raised "PB" there. You should trace all these lines to confirm.

NOTE: IF LINES 1 & 3 ARE REVERSED into the Control valve, that could cause the loader to be slow. So be sure to trace those lines !

2nd Photo. Not sure what view this is. What are we looking at?

3rd Photo. From underneath? #2 should be going to the tank sump, but is it? I see some splits in that old hose where it bends, but if it is return to tank, those don't matter.
Is the steel line the suction line from sump tank to your filter?
What is the unnumbered hose?

Now we are getting somewhere.
rScotty

 

[jahmes143]

The photos are great! Now we can make some educated guesses, but because yours has power steering we probably still need the hydraulic schematic in the workshop manual for the Kubota M5400, do you have that manual? I will look for one

1st Photo:
Line 1 is the "P" or pressure line coming either from the hydraulic pump...OR from one side of a priority valve that separates the main hydraulic pump flow into a power steering flow that has priority and then the remaining flow goes to everything else. Line 1 comes from rockshaft cylinder
Line 2 is the return to the "T" sump or Tank.
Line 3 is the power beyond that goes back to the 3pt. If we could see the side of the valve casting there should be a raised "PB" there. You should trace all these lines to confirm. There is a P and a T on the casting for lines 1 and 2, but no casing markings for line 3

NOTE: IF LINES 1 & 3 ARE REVERSED into the Control valve, that could cause the loader to be slow. So be sure to trace those lines!

2nd Photo. Not sure what view this is. What are we looking at? Lines 1 and 3 where they terminate into the rockshaft cylinder.

3rd Photo. From underneath? #2 should be going to the tank sump, but is it? I see some splits in that old hose where it bends, but if it is return to tank, those don't matter. Yes, from underneath looking up. I do believe it's going to tank sump. Splits in hose are not leaking, but will replace hose in near future.
Is the steel line the suction line from sump tank to your filter? Yes
What is the unnumbered hose? Actually 2 hoses there (one above the other), hoses 1 and 3 going to/from the rockshaft and control valve.

Now we are getting somewhere.

 

[rScotty]

I may have found us a usable Work Shop Manual (WSM)... it's for the M4900/M5900 - the model right after yours. But it sure looks like the same hydraulic layout. Take a look and see what you think.

If so, then your hydraulic pump on your tractor and the M5900 are a piggyback dual (3pt hyd+PwrSteering) type and so there will not be a power steering priority valve in the hydraulic circuit. With a piggyback pump The PS is already completely a stand-alone circuit as it should be.

Ant that also means that the main hydrualic in a bacic M5400/M5900 unmodified tractor could be run directly back to the rear - which also seems to match this WSM.

I've got some other thoughts, but first take a look at this WSM and see what you think. The search function doesn't seem to work for me. The hydraulic section of the WSM is section 8, approx pgs 334 to 353.
rScotty

You can find the manual at:

Index of Kubotabooks/Tractor Owners Manuals/

 

[jahmes143]

@rScotty I think it's the exact same setup. In fact, the hydraulic cylinder is the exact same part number for the M5400 and the M4900/M5700.

 

[Gordon Gould]

The photos are great! Now we can make some educated guesses, but because yours has power steering we probably still need the hydraulic schematic in the workshop manual for the Kubota M5400, do you have that manual? I will look for one

1st Photo:
Line 1 is the "P" or pressure line coming either from the hydraulic pump...OR from one side of a priority valve that separates the main hydraulic pump flow into a power steering flow that has priority and then the remaining flow goes to everything else. Line 1 comes from rockshaft cylinder
Line 2 is the return to the "T" sump or Tank.
Line 3 is the power beyond that goes back to the 3pt. If we could see the side of the valve casting there should be a raised "PB" there. You should trace all these lines to confirm. There is a P and a T on the casting for lines 1 and 2, but no casing markings for line 3

NOTE: IF LINES 1 & 3 ARE REVERSED into the Control valve, that could cause the loader to be slow. So be sure to trace those lines!

2nd Photo. Not sure what view this is. What are we looking at? Lines 1 and 3 where they terminate into the rockshaft cylinder.

3rd Photo. From underneath? #2 should be going to the tank sump, but is it? I see some splits in that old hose where it bends, but if it is return to tank, those don't matter. Yes, from underneath looking up. I do believe it's going to tank sump. Splits in hose are not leaking, but will replace hose in near future.
Is the steel line the suction line from sump tank to your filter? Yes
What is the unnumbered hose? Actually 2 hoses there (one above the other), hoses 1 and 3 going to/from the rockshaft and control valve.

Now we are getting somewhere.

I should stay out of this. jah-- is getting good help and doesn't need more to confuse things. But just a comment/question - When he said Line 1 (P-in) incomes from the rock shaft cylinder and not the pump, to me that sounds suspicious. Shouldn't it come from the pump or a hydraulic block at the pump outlet ??

gg

 

[rScotty]

@rScotty I think it's the exact same setup. In fact, the hydraulic cylinder is the exact same part number for the M5400 and the M4900/M5700.

Well good. You may have just saved the cost of the gauges kit.

I wish we had the equivalent install manual from Quickie Loaders just to make sure that the hookups the prev. owner did are correct. I'm beginning to wonder if the loader ever did go normal speed.
The speed the loader moves is roughly what one would suspect if the cylinders were responding to the differential between two opposing pressure flows.

The WSM shows that the PTO on/off valve is hydraulic, but is powered off of the power steering circuit, so it is not the culprit.

It's also interesting that the two hydraulic filters are in parallel....A better idea brought to us from the:
Department of Redundancy Department

rScotty

 

[rScotty]

I should stay out of this. jah-- is getting good help and doesn't need more to confuse things. But just a comment/question - When he said Line 1 (P-in) incomes from the rock shaft cylinder and not the pump, to me that sounds suspicious. Shouldn't it come from the pump or a hydraulic block at the pump outlet ??

gg

Glad to have you. The more the better. If you download that Workshop manual WSM and look at the schematic about page 316 or maybe 332 .... and also at one of the very last pages...then...

You will see that the hydraulic pump output only goes one place - which is directly back to the rear casting in the area of the rockshaft. Also back there in that area are some poorly defined accessory hydraulic outlets labeled A & B - but just how they work is a bit of a mystery only partly explained on a page at the very end of the WSM. My guess is that there is a lever or adjustment or something that causes either A or B to become a Power Beyond port to feed pressure forward to the FEL....but that doesn't quite fit with what we see on the FEL valve photo.

So I'm also wondering if there is a mistake in the plumbing or instructions from the Quickie Loader or in which control valve they provided. And if so, It may have been that the FEL was always that slow.

But we are closer. At least we understand a bit more of how it works. And can dismiss the power steering and PTO valve.

rScotty

 

[rScotty]

We ought to check the obvious. Could it be that the control cables that work the spool valves in the FEL control valve are just not pulling the valves open fully?
Can you check that?

 

[jahmes143]

@rScotty I checked the cables (exposed them and manually pulled them to their limit) and they appear to be functioning properly. I found the attached. I have the Commercial Hydraulic valve referenced on p20. Not sure if this is helpful.

I was also able to find the attached screengrab from a Quickie 310 manual. Manual stated control valves will vary based on particular tractor model.

 

[rScotty]

@rScotty I checked the cables (exposed them and manually pulled them to their limit) and they appear to be functioning properly. I found the attached. I have the Commercial Hydraulic valve referenced on p20. Not sure if this is helpful.

I was also able to find the attached screengrab from a Quickie 310 manual. Manual stated control valves will vary based on particular tractor model.

 

[rScotty]

I'm not surprised that you checked the cables. Now wecan dismiss that possibility.

I wonder what that Hydraulic Valve on page 20 is doing in your circuit?
It is a soleoid actuated diverter valve that switches pressure between two circuits in response to an electrical current. That is, it switches two circuits depending on whether the solenoid is resting or actuated.
My first guess isit could replace the manual levers for the A & B accessort ports.

What does it appear to be doing? Trace the hoses?

The screen grab would be very helpful, but the resolution is too low. Can we get better resolution?

 

[jahmes143]

I don't know what that Hydraulic Control Valve on p20 is, or if my unit actually has it. I don't think it does. Unfortunately, the screen grab is as high of quality as I could find from a circa 1998 manual. Frankly I'm to the point where I think I'll just take it to the Kubota dealer and have them fix the issue. After doing my due diligence, I'm not afraid to admit when I'm over my head!