Requesting advice on backup generator

[selfsufficient]

My wife has told me, in no uncertain terms, that I will have a backup generator installed or she will find someone to install one.

Here's what I think are the key factors I have to consider:

• We both work from home much of the time, but no longer have phone service, and can't get a cellular signal. That means our only connection to the outside world is Starlink. I have UPSs on key components so that we have about 20 minutes to let people know the power has gone down.
• Work is the primary concern. It's no problem for us to deal with a day without power, but it's generally related to a big snow storm, which means we can't leave to go to the office, and can't even let people know why we aren't responding.
• I have installed a monitoring system in the main electrical panel and have been monitoring for a while. We never exceed about 11kW, and only hit that when the hot tub is running (about 4.5kW by itself).
• House is 200amp service, but we don't have air conditioning and use propane for range/oven and boiler (hot water/heat). Electic dryer, but no reason to run the dryer while on the generator. Jet pump for water pressure.
• We live in a very remote area, so outages are "common." I'd estimate an average of about once per month. Sometimes the outage only lasts a few minutes, but at least once or twice a year we'll go down for 6-8 hours, or even more.
• Because we're in such a remote area, getting someone out to handle any kind of service is a real problem.
• There's not really a place to put a propane tank anywhere near where power enters the house. Plus we're remote enough that if we did run out of propane, a delivery might take days or weeks to get here.
• We get lots of snow, so I must have plenty of diesel on hand for the tractor. We've never had a situation where I ran out of diesel and couldn't get out to get more.
• We plan to be here for at least another 20 years and expect the situation is more likely to get worse than to get better.

I have a new Kubota skid steer, so I have a dealer, and I trust Kubota engines, so I'm looking at the Kubota GL14000. I believe it's big enough for my needs, and I think a water-cooled Kubota diesel engine is likely to outlive me. I also really like the fact that I could just use the forks to pick it up and put it on a trailer to take it to the dealer if there was a problem, instead of having to get a service person out.

Problem is that the Kubota looks like it will be around double the cost of a more "normal" backup generator from Generac, etc. Would you try to talk me out of or into buying the Kubota?

The other issue is the transfer switch. My preference would actually be a manual interlock. Many outages are brief and/or overnight. If the power goes out for 10 minutes, overnight, I'd rather just sleep through it. Also, it seems very common for the power to go on and off serveral times before settling back down. I'd rather just start the generator when the power goes off and let it run until I can switch back to line power without interrupting anything. And if we're not here when the power goes out, everything will be fine until we get back.

Problem there is that I'm not always there, and I'm not entirely sure my wife even CAN be trained to start the generator and flip the switch. In the grand scheme of things, the cost of an automatic transfer switch isn't that big a deal, so do you think I'm over-estimating the advantages of being in control?

 

[workinonit]

I read all of that and the key thing I got out of it is: No air conditioning??

Just get a standby 12kW with an auto transfer switch and be done with it. You can set time delays on it for power flashes and control it remotely. I'm pretty sure you would want it active when you are away in case of a long outage.

 

[grsthegreat]

Im a fan of generac air cooled units, but if you cant or dont want propane, id probably go with the kubota your looking at.

If you went with a liquid cooled diesel generac, youl be spending as much as the kubota more than likely.

You can easily train the wife to run a generator. The bota will be electric start, and all the wife would need to do is flip a panel interlock device. Even a kid could do that.


The interlock looks something like this, but varies depending on panel make.

 

[ericm979]

I think some of the automatic transfer switches can have the outage time that it takes to fire up the generator adjusted.

Diesel generators have been more expensive than home propane generators for a long time. A water cooled diesel engine costs more to build than the air cooled propane ones which are basically bigger lawnmower engines.

If there's no place for a propane tank, is there a place for a diesel tank? Diesel has more BTUS per gallon and is easier to store as its not under pressure but you'd still need a sizeable tank to get through an outage where you can't get out to get more fuel. You're less likely to be able to find someone to deliver diesel so you may have to buy a transfer tank and haul it into town to get fuel yourself.

We're in a steep mountainous area and everyone is on propane. They find some pretty inventive places to put the tanks. As long as the driver can get the truck close enough to haul the hose to the tank.

I've had a manual system for a long time and even with a printed checklist and periodic training my wife would rather not deal with it. If you can come up with an automated way to run it now, you'll be thankful later. I see utilities in other states following California utilities lead in practices like EPSS and PSPS that result in more outages but let them skimp on maintenance. I don't think that utility regulation will be anything but worse in the forseeable future. Outages will likely be more frequent and longer.

Solar and batteries can be a good backup system if you can afford them. If you get extended outages like we do then a way to top off batteries with a generator is a good idea. If you have an inclination to go solar, now is the time to do it. It is likely that tarriffs on components will increase and the tax rebate may go away.

 

[Darth_DMack]

We have a Generac 26KW home generator, runs on propane. I have a 1,000 gallon propane tank (buried) that provides gas to my generator and my house. Our appliances are all propane, so there's that.

Our power fluctuates frequently, so the generator has already proven itself a few times over.

It takes about 30 seconds once utility power is interrupted, for the generator to kick on and activate the transfer switch. The 26KW will run our entire home, AC and all.

We too, have Starlink, and my wife works from home. The generator "exercises" every Tuesday morning at 0800. Absolutely zero issues with it.

Our home is new construction, and we had the entire electrical system built around being able to partition things off if needed, to run just the bare minimum in case of long term outage.

So far, the longest we have had it run is about 6 hours, during the last hurricane. Money well spent!

 

[selfsufficient]

I think some of the automatic transfer switches can have the outage time that it takes to fire up the generator adjusted.

Diesel generators have been more expensive than home propane generators for a long time. A water cooled diesel engine costs more to build than the air cooled propane ones which are basically bigger lawnmower engines.

If there's no place for a propane tank, is there a place for a diesel tank? Diesel has more BTUS per gallon and is easier to store as its not under pressure but you'd still need a sizeable tank to get through an outage where you can't get out to get more fuel. You're less likely to be able to find someone to deliver diesel so you may have to buy a transfer tank and haul it into town to get fuel yourself.

We're in a steep mountainous area and everyone is on propane. They find some pretty inventive places to put the tanks. As long as the driver can get the truck close enough to haul the hose to the tank.

I've had a manual system for a long time and even with a printed checklist and periodic training my wife would rather not deal with it. If you can come up with an automated way to run it now, you'll be thankful later. I see utilities in other states following California utilities lead in practices like EPSS and PSPS that result in more outages but let them skimp on maintenance. I don't think that utility regulation will be anything but worse in the forseeable future. Outages will likely be more frequent and longer.

Solar and batteries can be a good backup system if you can afford them. If you get extended outages like we do then a way to top off batteries with a generator is a good idea. If you have an inclination to go solar, now is the time to do it. It is likely that tarriffs on components will increase and the tax rebate may go away.

This confirms a lot of what I'm thinking about. Thank you.

Since I use diesel in several pieces of equipment, I have a transfer tank, and can refuel a generator when needed. And I know for a fact that I can get in and out to get diesel more easily than I can get a big propane truck in to deliver. Even in the summer it can take several days to get a delivery, and they won't even attempt my road in the winter!

 

[Topzide]

Check these out; www.centralgagenerator.com/category/Generator-Sets
All Kubota gensets under $10k and up to 26Kw! Something else to look at.

 

[dodge man]

I think whatever you get a water cooled diesel is the way to go. I say this because you always have that fuel on hand. They cost more than a propane one but in your case diesel seems the logical route.

 

[ponytug]

@selfsufficient Welcome to TBN! (If you update your location in your profile, you will probably get more specific advice.)

+1 on the Kubota; you like the dealer, have some familiarity with the engines, and you already stock diesel. If there is any doubt about your wife wanting to play with generators and transfer switches, get an automatic switch. As others have pointed out modern generators have the ability to delay transfer to backup. I think the time delay bears some thought as line flickers aren't doing anything nice for the home electronics.

A couple of things that you might want to consider in addition;

• I would consider a whole house backup battery that could be charged from the generator or grid, or at least enough battery power in your UPS units for Starlink and your computers to easily ride through any transfer time, plus a 300% (+/-) safety factor for the inevitable winter storm that flickers five or ten times before the power gives out.
• I would also suggest upgrading to online (full time, pure sine wave) UPS systems, if you uaven't already done that.
• I would think about how to keep your diesel dry, and gel free, as it sounds as if some of your needs are winter storms.
• I would also suggest considering a heat pump dryer.
• Regardless, any place that gets line flickers, is likely also getting surges, so you might also want to add a whole house surge protector.

Finally, I would suggest that you don't put the generator too close to the house. I think "quiet diesel" backup generators are really "quieter" diesel generators, not silent generators. I think that it is better to put it farther away, and use heavier gauge wire to offset any power losses.

All the best,

Peter

 

[LittleBill21]

is it really just starlink you care about. I would consider a solar generator, or even a inverter battery setup. I feel like a generator is not needed if your main concern is simply the internet.

 

[California]

I watched a YouTube video last night where he tested the capacity of his EV to maintain his home. He concluded it could run minimal stuff for a few days - refrigerator, freezer, a hot plate and microwave, Starlink, and minimal LED lighting. He saw the EV's battery go down from 80% to 67% in 24 hours, so after a couple of days there would still be plenty of power left to drive outside the immediate disaster region to a working charger.

He has a 2022 Ioniq 5, one of the fastest charging cars available. The latest ones are only 20 minutes for a normal en-route charge.

If survival mode in your home would be sufficient instead of just carrying on as normal, and you don't expect outages beyond a couple of days, this might be a simpler alternative to a generator.

To explore this:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ioniq+5+vehicle+to+load

The shortest and simplest summary:

 

[Rmart30]

Diesel is going to be a much better option since you may not be able to get propane deliveries.
In your situation id have a solar set up and spend about $6k on it (30% tax credit available) and have a diesel generator as a back up. (probably spend $2000 on a old diesel welding machine)
If not enough sun on a cloudy day to recharge your DC batteries the generator will do it.

Think of it this way.
Hypothetical power outage and your running a generator 24 hrs a day right?
Have a solar set up and even if no sunshine to recharge it your generator can charge your batteries back up in 6-8 hours of run time.
So, instead of using 24 hrs worth of fuel for 24 hours of electricity you have only used 6-8 hours of fuel for 24 hours of electricity.
We do this with a small $1600ish system. If batteries are low we can run the generator and charge the batteries for about 3 hours, and in turn we can run the ac for about 7-8 hours over night in peace and quiet ande not burning any fuel. .

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

When I was contracting I recommended PDgenerators for the east coast contracts.

Kubota 12 kW Diesel Generator

Kubota 12 kW Diesel Generator - EPA TIER 4 Final Kubota is a leading manufacturer of compact, reliable, diesel engines. This Kubota powered generator is perfect for continous use and has plenty of power to run your home, construction site, business etc... It is mounted on a heavy duty steel...

www.pdgenerators.com

And for the west coast I recommended Wrico, both kubota reps.

Standby Generator Install | Home Generator Cost in Oregon

Explore expert standby generator installation services and competitive home standby generator costs in Oregon, USA. Visit wricogenerators.com for detail

www.wricogenerators.com

 

[RjCorazza]

The Kubota 11k and 14k diesel generators were on my short list years ago when I replaced my Generac 7kw gas generator. It was LOUD and storing gasoline was a royal pain.

Since you have other diesels, and the ability to transport fuel, I would go with the Kubota 14k and store enough fuel to get through a longer power outage. Maybe 200 gallons or so. My main diesel storage tank is 108g, and I store 55g specifically for emergency power.
My current setup is a 15kw pto generator, so I must manually transfer power. As has been mentioned, a typical lockout transfer switch is simple enough to operate and basically fool proof.

 

[Rustyiron]

Your situation and wants are identical to ours.
Just this past April we were out of power for 5 days from 18" of the wettest snow I've ever seen.
I didn't want the additional complexity of an automatic xfer switch and relying on a service guy in an extreme weather event seemed is self defeating to the whole "emergency backup power" thing, the same as hoping for a propane delivery.
I found a low hour (1100) 20kw diesel unit (Cummins) that has a 200 gallon fuel tank as it's base.
It didn't have an enclosure but building a 12x12 generator building was a simple project and worth it for the $5500 price of the genny. It's about 150' from the house right next to our last pole and the meter with the xfer switch back to back on its own "pedestal".
There's a simple little generator procedure stuck on the refrigerator with a magnet that my wife can and has followed. We also don't get excited about 2-3 hours without power depending on the weather. Mostly for the freezers.
I also have a couple of 275g tanks of heating fuel and off road diesel on hand. My generators consumption is about a half gallon/hour.
That April storm had a lot of folks around here running out or almost running out of LP.

This is the only picture of the generator building on this phone. It was early during the April storm but enough to loose power. Look at the trees with only 4-5" on the ground! The widespread damage came during the next 13-14" inches.
Many were out days after we were back online.

edit; to be fair, I've never had an automatic transfer sw. so I might be over reacting but I'm certain that parts you don't have will never need service or go bad.

 

[DarkBlack]

I think whatever you get a water cooled diesel is the way to go. I say this because you always have that fuel on hand. They cost more than a propane one but in your case diesel seems the logical route.

yup. 1,800 rpm’s is the way to go with diesel.

 

[5030]

Only difference between the JD powered diesel Generac I have besides output (I also have a propane fired Generac that takes care of the house) is, the diesel has a 4 pole head and the propane one is a 2 pole head. 2 pole = 3600 rpm, 4 pole = 1800 rpm.

Both of them have been flawless except for routine services, for over 12 years now.

IMO. Generac makes a quality product.

 

[5030]

Both of mine have vacuum operated transfer switches, I would not have it any other way. The diesel starts and warms up for a minute and assumes the load while the propane one warms up for 30 seconds and assumes the load. Both are hard wired, the diesel to the shop and barns, the propane unit runs just the house. The diesel is 110 -220-1-3 and the house one is 110-220-1.

 

[DarkBlack]

Both of mine have vacuum operated transfer switches, I would not have it any other way. The diesel starts and warms up for a minute and assumes the load while the propane one warms up for 30 seconds and assumes the load. Both are hard wired, the diesel to the shop and barns, the propane unit runs just the house. The diesel is 110 -220-1-3 and the house one is 110-220-1.

Vacuum operated? That would be odd.
I’m guessing you mean vacuum enclosed switches

 

[ponytug]

@Rmart30 we have solar plus batteries backed up by generators. I think that having enough battery storage to go at least overnight is very helpful, and it minimizes the fraction of the time that the generators are running. (A solar plus battery installation has IRA tax credits; just make sure that your batteries can be charged by a generator if needed, like @Rustyiron's snow story above.)Having batteries is much nicer than our previous method of running the generator whenever we needed some power. It is so much quieter.

@Rustyiron that has to be the nicest looking generator enclosure that I have ever seen! Awesome!

All the best,

Peter