Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality

   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality #101  
In truth, this is kinda a strong side of eventual solar power de-centralization. You could eliminate the need to run the expensive infrastructure out to reach a dozen homes miles from anything else. Suburban and urban areas, it's probably not the future. I still think it's a mix of all sources that is needed. Nothing wrong with a remote location having solar on every home, but also propane generators for surge needs, or diesel. People don't want to hear it, but a power company (or internet or gas) is probably loosing money on every rural customer. If you look at the number of poles to reach a home (or underground feet, but that's far more $$$), if you have more than maybe 4 poles per rate paying customer, they are all probably costing the utility money, unless it's a high usage, commercial customer.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality #102  
It's funny, transportation, telecoms, power, Amazon, and USPS, all refer to the problem as the "last mile". Probably 95% of customers or more are within easy access to good infrastructure within a mile; but getting from that aertierial to Every home, is the challenge.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality
  • Thread Starter
#103  
7.5¢/kWh for "excessive" generated power is excellent. Go ahead and overbuild your system.

Around here we get 2.5¢/kWh for any power we put on the grid, limited to the amount we draw from the grid at 11.5¢/kWh. Is better to get 2.5¢ than to throw it away.

Meanwhile my PV system will have batteries because it isn't worth giving the power to TVA.
The problem with a blanket "go ahead and overproduce" is that you have to run calculations and see if it is worth it.

When sizing a system.....it can be simplified down to a total system cost per watt.

Currently I pay ~12.5 cents per kwh. So any and all production up until that point....I am directly saving (putting in my pocket basically) 12.5 cents for every kwh I produce.

If I produce more than I use.....now I am saving (putting in my pocket)about 40% less per kwh. So that pushes out the ROI by oversizing. So some number crunching needs done.
Make sure you are adding generation and transmission for your overall cost.

Also be weary of that, they'll buy back, but I've heard of companies starting to charge transmission on the buyback. Since you're using their lines.
My coop dont charge a distribution for the power they buy back. I will directly get credited 7.5 cents per kwh.
If they don't buy back or I use everything produced, totally OK with that. Our local co op has been great over the years. Not many grid down days and they have always fixed things real quick.

Now looking into methods of ground mounting panels with angle adjustment for different times of year. The prebuilt mounting system/ kits seem to get pricey quickly. Not into roof mounting with the amount of snow we can get in some winters. Seems being able to set panels almost vertical on a ground mount would also help with sluffing the snow off versus a low angle roof trying to pull it off with a roof rake, and work well with snow reflection feeding the backside of the Bifacials.

Just thinking out loud, reading this thread with interest.
Yes, coop's are good in that we rarely have outages....and when we do they are short-lived.

IF you are liking an adjustable ground mount...I would look no further than Sinclair sky-rack Sinclair Designs & Engineering - Michigan's leading Solar Racking Manufacture
The latest thing is the bifacial PV panel which is partially sensitive on the backside. Can sometimes make power from that which is reflected from the ground.

Have been some interesting experiments in mounting these panels vertical. Good yield early and late in the day. Area under the curve of production is similar but not quite as good as "optimal angle" mounting. Depends on your latitude.
I saw those experiments too of vertical mounting. Yes total production is less.....but a combo of vertical and horizontal can really flatten a curve and have good production ALL day. But from what I saw the single biggest benefit of vertical was still allowing use of the land between the panels for farming crops that dont get tall. Like hay being the biggest one
Probably worse than that. The Federal Grid Tie law says the utility only has to pay the Audited Incremental Cost of Generation. They don't have to pay more than it would cost to produce a kWh themselves. For TVA that is about 2.5¢/kWh. Most TVA associated utilities charge around 10¢/kWh for the power delivered to one's home. The difference is the cost of that distribution grid.

Long ago I wise experienced engineer told me, "The biggest cost in running an electric power utility is the cost of money." In other words, "interest".
The federal regulations dont apply to a non-profit coop. They are not bound by any net metering regulations or public utility stuff.

But also, the rural coop's dont actually generate power themselves. They have to directly buy it off someone. In my case here in ohio....they purchase the electric from buckeye power.....and buckeye power sets the rate in which they will credit my coop for people overproducing on solar. That rate is simply passed on to me.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality
  • Thread Starter
#104  
OP here

I dont know where I left off in this thread without going back and re-reading. But after about 2 months of getting information from my rural coop.....which was like trying to herd cats....I am moving forward with a solar install.

The details of my net-metering......

Currently a non-solar customer's bill is structured 3-part
1. service availability charge....$50. Everyone pays this just for the pleasure of being tied to the grid.
2. Generation and transmission....8.6 cents/kwh. This is what my coop has to pay buckeye power to deliver electric to local sub-stations
3. Distribution.....2.6 cents per kwh. This is what pays my coop to maintain their local distribution network from substations to residences

Those last two are always fluctuation a little. But this last bill totaled ~11.2 centes per kwh.

There is also a kva surcharge of $2.15 per kva of allocated transformer size over 10. Literally no one without solar sees this charge. Because a single residence with a 15kva xfmr.....that charge would be $10.75. Meaning if you didnt use at least $10.75 worth of electric....you get charged as if you did. and at ~11.2cents/kwh....that would be less than 100kwh.

Now for solar.....things change. The generation and transmission rates stay the same. But the new service availability charge becomes $57. And the $2.15 per kva over 10 absolutely may come into play.

Now in my case...I have two meters. One at my shop and one at my house. So I am paying The $50 x 2. At the time I built my shop....I was looking at a ~400' run of 350mcm wire to feed the shop, and having just bought the place and possible future plans of a new house on the hillside right where I would have to trench this wire.....and the ~$2500 it would have cost me....I opted for a new service.

Now that things have changed I want to tie the shop and house together and get rid of that $50/mo charge just to have two accounts.

I was originally going to tie the shop and solar to my house meter....but property layout, wire sizing, etc, it makes more sense to tie my house to the shop meter. So that is what I am planning.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality
  • Thread Starter
#105  
Continued.....didnt want a single long post....

So far I have everything ordered and expect panel delivery today.

Details of the system....
30 canadian solar Bifacial 540w panels
7 Hoymiles 4-into-1 inverters
1 Hoymiles 2-into-1 inverter
Those trunk lines will feed into a 100a outdoor main lug load center. Each trunk line can handle 3 inverters. So I'll have 3 trunk-lines coming in to 30a beakers.

The main lugs of that panel will feed a 100a disconnect as required by my coop. That disconnect and main panel will be at the array. Then a ~125' trench to the meter and connected to the grid.

All of that is gonna sit atop a sinclair skyrack with season adjust jacks.

The only thing I have not purchased yet is MC4 extender cables. Given their cost....there are too many variables that may change how many or how long I need. Given that I dont know how long the leads are on the inverters, or how/where I am mounting them, or the orientation of the panels if some, or none of the panel leads will reach....I have opted to wait until I have the array built, and inverters mounted to see the exact quantity and lengths I need.

The panels were ~$4500 delivered. The inverters and trunk cabling was ~$3600 delivered. The skyrack was ~$4600 delivered. And I have other local expenses for URD wire, panels, and boxes.

Current expense to date is $15,300

I will still have ~$500 for MC4 cables, ~$600 for concrete for the posts, and ~$600 for a truck load of limestone for under the panels. (brightest color stone I can think of that may maximize bifacial gain). And once I get limestone coated under....I may look into some of that bright white quartz decorative rock. Probably a waste given limited gains but will look good.

So all in I am expecting about $17k

However, about $1300 of that cost really has nothing to do with solar as it is simply connecting my house and shop to a single service.

Given the 30% fed credit.....I am thinking true system cost to be $10k-$11k.

And with this size, I think I will overproduce quite a bit in summer. At least according to PVwatts calculator. And still be quite short in the winter.

But ballparking the ~11.2c savings and the 7.8 cent for overproduction....I am anticipating ~$2000 yearly savings.

So 5-6 year ROI expected for the solar.

Orders were just placed within the past week or two. Nothing onsite yet but I will take pics and detail the build and start a new thread once I am up and running.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality #106  
The federal regulations dont apply to a non-profit coop. They are not bound by any net metering regulations or public utility stuff.

But also, the rural coop's dont actually generate power themselves. They have to directly buy it off someone. In my case here in ohio....they purchase the electric from buckeye power.....and buckeye power sets the rate in which they will credit my coop for people overproducing on solar. That rate is simply passed on to me.
You missed the meaning of "only have to pay the Audited Incremental Cost of Generation". The utility is free to pay more if they wish.

Utilities such as Alabama Power have circumvented any good intentions of the grid tie law by implementing connection fees based on PV array capacity. These fees can exceed the credits received for production during the winter. A couple of years ago there were less than 200 PV solar systems connected to Alabama Power.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality
  • Thread Starter
#107  
You missed the meaning of "only have to pay the Audited Incremental Cost of Generation". The utility is free to pay more if they wish.

Utilities such as Alabama Power have circumvented any good intentions of the grid tie law by implementing connection fees based on PV array capacity. These fees can exceed the credits received for production during the winter. A couple of years ago there were less than 200 PV solar systems connected to Alabama Power.
No, the rural coop's of this country that arent bound by public utilities and invester owned companies do NOT have to offer net metering.

Varies by states of course...

But the answer is my rural coop "only has to pay" absolutely nothing at all if they dont want to.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality #108  
We're learning about solar subsidies here.
The utilities are required to pay .20, but only allowed to charge .05.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality #109  
No, the rural coop's of this country that aren't bound by public utilities and investor owned companies do NOT have to offer net metering.
Varies by states of course...
But the answer is my rural coop "only has to pay" absolutely nothing at all if they don't want to.
Generally really like my coop, but they are anti solar. No net metering, no buyback. And limited to 5kw max grid tied solar allowed.
I want (need?) 12kw of solar. Can't have it.
 
   / Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality #110  
Generally really like my coop, but they are anti solar. No net metering, no buyback. And limited to 5kw max grid tied solar allowed.
I want (need?) 12kw of solar. Can't have it.
Have you looked into solar systems with export limits? Some California utilities are ok with larger solar systems if the maximum export is capped.

All the best, Peter
 

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