Question on deck build sitting on ground

[Sigarms]

After finding out exactly where my septic tank was last month, ready to have our read deck replaced. It's actually 3 decks off the back of the house, one on the ground outside the basement, one outside of the first floor, and a third one off the 3 rd floor master bedroom.

It's the basement deck that concearns me...

Below looking off the second floor deck. The stairs going down to the hill and the larger deck will all be removed first with some earth work and planting grass.

I got 5 quotes, and two guys came in and wanted to replace the wood at the basement level with cement. You can see in the pic below per the red line, and this is where the one guy I want to go with said he would run cement out to.

Below is my concern with cement vs wood...

Last year, we had a water leak we had to find. It was the well water line coming into the house and we had to remove the decking to get to the connection that needed to be repaired at the connection coming into the house

Two of the contractors who I considered the better guys said they would never laywood in the ground like you see. They both reccomended laying cement to replace the wood.

The concern is if there is ever another leak, how do you deal with accessing any pipes with dealing with cement? Reality is after thinking about it, not certain why the water and plumbing connections coming into the house comes directly behind the house where you'd put a deck, but that's kind of a moot point now because they are laid under slab in the basement anyways.

The basement deck is 11' x 30'.

The guy I'm going with came from a reccomendation from a friend in the HVAC field as we were talking about pricing and what some companies are doing out there, and this guys name came out. He came out, looked at everything, and gave me a price that was within 5% of the "second best" company that came out and everyone else had to take a week to get me some numbers back. About 15 years ago I replaced the second and 3rd story deck with a guy that I hired as the brains for woodworking and me helping him labor wise, and a very long story, I'm not going down that road again (you don't want me putting lumber together by myself assuming it will hold, believe me LOL).

Below a better idea of what the basment deck looks like coming out of the basement.

So, would our concerns be justified laying cement? A couple of other companies didn't seem to have an issue with replacing wood at the basement level, and one in particular seems to good local work.

I can only figure lumber is still stupid high with no end in sight as I could probably figure out a geothermall system for less money

Any thoughts or suggestions would greatly be appreciated.

 

[2manyrocks]

One way of keeping the water line accessible is to install pavers over it. There would be more labor cost, but if there was a leak, they could be removed without having to jack hammer everything.

You could do a design that uses concrete for the areas that you don't need access and use pavers for the area where you need access.

They need to be careful to pitch this away from your house to carry water away from it.

 

[ponytug]

Hmmm. Having water and septic lines in poorly accessible locations isn't exactly a design goal of mine. I wouldn't put concrete there.

Personally, I am not a fan of wood on grade, and I like to see ventilation under a deck to help keep it drier and last longer. I like @2manyrocks thought of using pavers. It would be much easier to get under them if you ever needed to. Get the right slope on the area, compact it, put landscape fabric / geotextile down, add 4-6" of fine stone (1/4" minus or sand), compacted well, and you can lay pavers pretty quickly.

If you go the wood deck route, I would think about some footings to keep the wood off the ground, and design the joists and deck such that it would be straight forward to cut into the deck if you ever need a repair.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

 

[Sigarms]

Thanks guys. All of your comments I thought about.

When first "pitched" on concrete idea, and it was something we didn't considered and really liked the idea.

After giving it more thought, it seems that concrete raises more potential issues than wood given if anything needs to be accessed under the "deck".

We've been here going on 19 years now and only had the one issue, but if another issue comes up, that's the rub.

 

[2manyrocks]

That space under your deck doesn't look like it gets used much, but I could see it being a very nice outdoor space.

I wouldn't use rectangular red brick pavers for the entire area because that would be too much of the same relative to the brick on your house. It could also tend to be overwhelming if the pavers were laid out in a strictly rectangular layout. I think you'd want to vary the lay out for visual appeal. You might consider larger pavers or perhaps pavers that mimic the style of grey cobblestone perhaps laid out in a running bond pattern. There might be some kind of visualization tool that you could try out different styles and colors to help you pick what looks the best.

You could also concrete the area where there is no need for access, but use pavers over the area where you need to retain access.

If you don't intend to use this as outdoor space and only want something under the deck to deal with the grass not growing there, you could put down heavy landscape fabric and use pea gravel as a ground cover. It would be a pain to remove later if you decided that you really wanted to use this area as outdoor space and then put down a solid surface. It also tends to spill out unless you have a good way of retaining it so it doesn't do that.

Why did the concrete guys want to extend the concrete past the existing deck line? That would seem to be totally unuseable space?

 

[Sigarms]

That space under your deck doesn't look like it gets used much, but I could see it being a very nice outdoor space.

I wouldn't use rectangular red brick pavers for the entire area because that would be too much of the same relative to the brick on your house. It could also tend to be overwhelming if the pavers were laid out in a strictly rectangular layout. I think you'd want to vary the lay out for visual appeal. You might consider larger pavers or perhaps pavers that mimic the style of grey cobblestone perhaps laid out in a running bond pattern. There might be some kind of visualization tool that you could try out different styles and colors to help you pick what looks the best.

You could also concrete the area where there is no need for access, but use pavers over the area where you need to retain access.

If you don't intend to use this as outdoor space and only want something under the deck to deal with the grass not growing there, you could put down heavy landscape fabric and use pea gravel as a ground cover. It would be a pain to remove later if you decided that you really wanted to use this area as outdoor space and then put down a solid surface. It also tends to spill out unless you have a good way of retaining it so it doesn't do that.

Why did the concrete guys want to extend the concrete past the existing deck line? That would seem to be totally unuseable space?

At the end of the day, my wife and I really aren't "deck" people if that makes sense.

When we bought the place, we thought, "wow, we'll spend a lot of time out here". First 5 years, all the time spent outside was taking care of everything and taking care of a lot of trees that had to be removed LOL

When my dad lived with us, we set up a hammock for him as he liked the hot weather on the basement deck. Other than that, even the deck behind the kitchen doesn't get used much other than for hanging clothes on the clothesline out the kitchen door.

Before my father came to live with us, and now that he's gone, we hardly spend any time in the basement, thus you're correct in your assumption the back basement deck doesn't get used much.

The reality is other than the water line we had to fix, we don't know where everything is at. The septic people we're able to find the tank with rods only. The line from the tank need to go into the house, 99% it's under the deck. That said, my pump people who I trust fixxed the leaking water line connection, and they pointed out why after time 18 years it finally happened, so I'm pretty confident the fix is good and we won't have that issue again.

The biggest reason for a complete makeover on the deck is the work that was done 15 years ago needs to replaced. The bigger factor is selling the house is potentially selling the house in 5-8 years from now, in which case we can still put it off, but the boss thinks it's time to bite the bullet and get it done now.

 

[2manyrocks]

You might not be deck people, but what if potential buyers would pay much more for your house if it had a really nice outdoor space?

Example: Nantucket Pavers Patio-on-a-Pallet 18 in. x 18 in. Concrete Gray Variegated Traditional Yorkstone Paver (64 Pieces/144 Sq Ft) 31242 - The Home Depot

 

[Sigarms]

You might not be deck people, but what if potential buyers would pay much more for your house if it had a really nice outdoor space?

Example: Nantucket Pavers Patio-on-a-Pallet 18 in. x 18 in. Concrete Gray Variegated Traditional Yorkstone Paver (64 Pieces/144 Sq Ft) 31242 - The Home Depot

I don't disagree with you, but the question becomes where do you stop at what price point? Replacing what we are already looking at having done is more than a pretty penny right now in our opinion.

We may stay here no more than 5-8 years, or depending on how things play out with my mother in law, perhaps longer if she needs to move in with us just as my father did.

Getting ready for vacation with the same MIL watching our house while we're gone with one dog and 3 cats, and after our son leaves for the military, the house is already too large for us after cleaning everything up for my MIL yesterday.

What we'd be selling is a large somewhat nice 3 story house built in 1988, 3,200 square feet with 17 acres of land with the potential of another 20 acres.

Whatever we put into the deck and for as long as we're here, we really won't use it anyway.

Seems the safest bet is to have a quality deck build (which again I could do a geothermal system for less) and not go overboard money wise.

I could be wrong, but what we were already quoted, I fell over dead, and can't see spending that much more. That said, I could see exactly how much more pavers would run as he did mention them as an option.

Some time ago I did tell my wife what we should do is after we totally remove the back deck is put stone steps in, build a retianing wall at the bottom (where the large bottom deck is now) and put in stone and a large fireplace for an outside Oasis. I was joking with a straight face, and my wife was looking at me like I was stupid LOL

 

[2manyrocks]

Going to add this observation because I see a lot of homeowners pay on their mortgages for 20-30 years and decide to sell. Their home is okay to them because they've lived there for 20 years like it is. The flippers come along and offer them what they see as the best offer, but then the flippers invest a relatively modest amount in (a) cosmetic improvements and (b) staging the house to make it look appealing to today's buyers. After a few weeks, the flippers update and sell the house walking away with an outsized return on a comparatively little amount of time, money, and investment compared to the homeowners because the flippers understand what can be done to wring the most money out of buyers.

If you'd rather have that money in your own pocket, then look at your home from a buyer's perspective and decide what updates will bring you the best return.

Geothermal may be a great upgrade, but flippers are going to upgrade kitchens, bathrooms, paint, flooring.....they are going to put their money in the cosmetic fluff first because that's what people see.

Go look at other houses for sale. Look at what the houses sold for in your area by the homeowners and then later after the flippers get done with them.

Trying to help you......

 

[jyoutz]

I would never install wood in contact with the ground. A few ideas, some of which have already been mentioned:

1) pavers
2) a solid edge border and tamped/packed crusher fines on top of weed barrier fabric.
3 a deck resting on low concrete pillars and treated wood joints, decked with plastic wood
4) plant grass and build a deck elsewhere

 

[Sigarms]

Trying to help you......

Completely understand, believe me, and your suggestions do make sense. I will investigate more with the guy I want to go with to see what the additional costs are.

If it makes any sense, when we bought the place in 2005, I don't think we are going to loose money when we finally decide to sell.

Buyers may not have our same taste, but when we originally bought the place, itwas because we fell in love with the property and not the house, and I always told my wife the first house I buy, I want to be able to pee and shoot off my back porch and not have to deal with neighbors close by.

I have little doubt that anyone that looks at our place will most likely find the same thing.

Believe me, I just had the master bath and guest bathroom remodeled. I know about trying to make the interior look more appealing to increase the value. Kitchen and main floor has to be redone as well and I don't even want to think about windows.

The question becomes exactly how much for everything, and you need to pick your battles.

 

[Sigarms]

a deck resting on low concrete pillars and treated wood joints, decked with plastic wood

That same thought crossed my mind as well.

 

[2manyrocks]

If you go with plastic decking at ground level, but go with wood above, that may turn some buyers off who would expect the same material in both places.

Pavers are within the ability of many DIYer's if you would like to save on the installation.

Or pour concrete in the areas that get walked on and used, but think up some kind of something that looks good, but can be removed from the area where the pipes are located.

 

[ruffdog]

I think I would grade that area away from the house for drainage, lay some pretty stone (gravel), and do pavers as a path between the back yard and door.

 

[ruffdog]

The moisture, mold, critter, replacement work etc is why I would do the gravel.

PS...I would never build a deck on the ground like that.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

A contractor friend & I replaced front porch last year with Trex. Porch is concrete but we made a pt frame over top, I insisted on 1" fall from door to front steps. You don't notice but water runs off. I put pt tongue & groove plywood down and roll roofing over it. Trex supposed to have a gap, but we ran touching. It's been great. Trex comes in different colors and can easily be unscrewed.
Concrete for your application (my opinion...2c) would be great, sloped away from home. If I was concerned about pipe access I'd put in removable steel plate. Same color as concrete it wouldn't really be noticed.
To me you have a beautiful shady place but I'd be concerned with moisture. Graded, compacted, gravel, vapor barrier (plastic) reinforced concrete would last a very long time.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

If you do use concrete, sleeve the water line so it can be replaced from outside the concrete area. I would probably replace that section with new line.

 

[EddieWalker]

I think that if it was me, I would pour concrete. In my experience, it's not too hard to cut out a section of concrete to get a water line, then pour concrete back into the hole.

What happens most of the time when there is a leak under the slab of a house, they just cut the line going to the house, dig a new trench to where they can bring it into the house, run it up through a wall and into the attic, or the ceiling of the first story. It's pretty quick. Then the home owner calls me to come fix all the sheetrock.

 

[LouNY]

Another option would be a removable deck were the lines are. With the new plastic deck piers and either Trex or wood a removable deck section would be quite easy.

 

[2manyrocks]

For ongoing maintenance, I think concrete/pavers would be easier to pressure wash and remove leaves from than wooden or trex decking or decorative gravel.

Just to ask, the water line is not something that would be easily relocated out from under the proposed concrete to another location?