Novice wants a MIG, advise ?

[etpm]

I have (2) meter loops here. One house, one for the shop. The shop has a separate panel (100a, I think) and the circuit for the welder runs to the 50A plug, but also has (2) 120V plugs on the same wires just above. There are additional 120v plugs and a couple of lights - which I need to upgrade to get better light.
I was really wondering about the 120V capable wire machines. It does not appear that a "normal" 120V circuit should/can be used? Yes, I could swap out the 50A plug, but if I keep my Stick welder, then I would not have a plug for it. So, if I understand this correctly, I will still need/want a dedicated additional plug?
I am still considering a wire machine but will not pull the trigger until I try JAX suggestion to try 7024 (3/32) rods on the Stick. Perhaps, with additional patience and practice I can use these more effectively and forgo the wire machine. Wish I would have bought a Mig/Wire to begin with, I think. Just about ALL projects are Thin Wall 1/2 square tubing. It is one of my infrequent hobbies. Unlike some, I am NOT working in the shop every day. Hopefully, retire this year and wanting to buy anything I may want soon. Truth be told, like buying a computer, it is often difficult to "know" what you are going to do with it - as people often ask. Only thing I "think" is I could do my known projects easier with a MIG or Flux Core machine.

Any MIG machine is also a fluxcore machine. Adding an additional receptacle if needed is an easy job. If you do add one and it is wired to the same breaker as another receptacle be sure to use the same gauge wire that is going to the existing receptacle. This is because the breaker is meant to protect the wiring, not the devices powered by the wiring. Also, in order to make things clear, the plug is thing with prongs sticking out, the receptacle is what the plug fits into. Using plug to mean both things can get confusing.
Eric

 

[California]

Many of the small MIGs are now dual voltage. I think buying a 120-only MIG creates an un-necessary limitation.

And related - MIG with gas, can weld on lighter material than flux core without burning through. Plus the welds may look nicer. There's nothing wrong with starting using flux core, that's all I use, but for the broadest range of applications a MIG-capable welder is preferable.

 

[alexpops]

If it was me, I'd keep the Stick, & get a decent multi-volt for the Mig. Key issue will be your duty cycle & weight. My hobart 210 mvp is more capable on thicker metal than my 120 volt Lincoln 140 MP, but it has tap settings vs infinite adjustment and a lower duty cycle. It also weighs about 2x the Lincoln (75 lbs vs 34) ... so less & less "portable" with each passing year. Slightly less convenient to change polarity on the Hobart (internal swap of leads vs external on the Lincoln) ... so if you are switching between gas & flux-core often that may be a consideration. I like & use both rigs, but if I had it to do over, I might skip the Hobart & go straight to 250ish Amp in Miller/Lincoln/or Everlast for the bigger MIG. Also have a StickMate 235 which is a beast & I'll keep for as long as I can strike an arc. Depends on your wallet & level of frustration waiting out the thermal breaker. My only experience with HF welders is the truly crappy 90 Amp chicago electric flux-core which wasn't worth the $99 I paid for it. Another option (if you want to learn it) is a multi process TIG/MIG/Stick like the Everlast MTS 275 with TIG package ... on sale now on the website & you may get a better deal through Mark on this site (he's one of the advertisers) & on here pretty regular. If you are decent at stick, TIG shouldn't be too difficult to pick up vs guys that only have ever run MIG/Flux core.

 

[rangerfredbob]

If you are mostly running 1/2" thin wall tubing then yeah, wire feed on 120V is perfectly fine, keep the stick for bigger stuff... if you are used to clean up on stick and don't mind a little bit of spatter then I wouldn't shy away from flux core either, it runs about like 6011, for long beads on thin metal running with gas is much nicer I imagine (haven't done that myself... yet, next year I'll get myself a pair of bottles...)

 

[WranglerX]

If you are mostly running 1/2" thin wall tubing then yeah, wire feed on 120V is perfectly fine, keep the stick for bigger stuff... if you are used to clean up on stick and don't mind a little bit of spatter then I wouldn't shy away from flux core either, it runs about like 6011, for long beads on thin metal running with gas is much nicer I imagine (haven't done that myself... yet, next year I'll get myself a pair of bottles...)

Moved to MIG (GMAW - Gas Metal Arc Weld) and never looked back, still have partial roll of demo FCAW wire that came with welder when purchase about 8 years ago....

 

[Spike56]

Any MIG machine is also a fluxcore machine. Adding an additional receptacle if needed is an easy job. If you do add one and it is wired to the same breaker as another receptacle be sure to use the same gauge wire that is going to the existing receptacle. This is because the breaker is meant to protect the wiring, not the devices powered by the wiring. Also, in order to make things clear, the plug is thing with prongs sticking out, the receptacle is what the plug fits into. Using plug to mean both things can get confusing.
Eric

Got 'Ya. Guess I am still wondering about both. Of course, I have yet to make a decision on a machine.
ETPM: "Adding an additional receptacle if needed is an easy job". Yes, it is not the hardest job in the world. Although, IF I need / want an additional receptacle, we are now into conduit with multiple bends, metal fasteners, strut, breaker to fit my panel, wire and maybe more. So, I do not want to trivialize the effort and cost associated with any additional outlets. Actually, since I do not have conduit benders, and wouldn't want to buy an entire roll of wire, and associated pieces to complete the job, I would likely farm the job out. It is exceedingly difficult to get many things (including contractors) where I live.
I admit *again* to being a classic over-thinker. But, from MY experience, and long travels to obtain supplies, it is best to try and think through the jobs and things you will need. Then of course, decide if you want to attempt the job.
So, concerning a MIG/Fluxcore, I was just trying to determine the power source required (plug and therefore receptacle). Not that this absolutely determines which machine I would buy, but I was curious why many welder descriptions often do not mention the input power requirements other than to say it can run on 120V/240V. I remain uncertain if this is universal or not?

 

[Spike56]

If it was me, I'd keep the Stick, & get a decent multi-volt for the Mig. Key issue will be your duty cycle & weight. My hobart 210 mvp is more capable on thicker metal than my 120 volt Lincoln 140 MP, but it has tap settings vs infinite adjustment and a lower duty cycle. It also weighs about 2x the Lincoln (75 lbs vs 34) ... so less & less "portable" with each passing year. Slightly less convenient to change polarity on the Hobart (internal swap of leads vs external on the Lincoln) ... so if you are switching between gas & flux-core often that may be a consideration. I like & use both rigs, but if I had it to do over, I might skip the Hobart & go straight to 250ish Amp in Miller/Lincoln/or Everlast for the bigger MIG. Also have a StickMate 235 which is a beast & I'll keep for as long as I can strike an arc. Depends on your wallet & level of frustration waiting out the thermal breaker. My only experience with HF welders is the truly crappy 90 Amp chicago electric flux-core which wasn't worth the $99 I paid for it. Another option (if you want to learn it) is a multi process TIG/MIG/Stick like the Everlast MTS 275 with TIG package ... on sale now on the website & you may get a better deal through Mark on this site (he's one of the advertisers) & on here pretty regular. If you are decent at stick, TIG shouldn't be too difficult to pick up vs guys that only have ever run MIG/Flux core.

Yes, I am leaning heavily on keeping the Stick. At this point, I am considering a Lincoln 211 CLASS type of welder, or the Miller Matic 141, as the Max size / capability / cost I would ever need. Guess I would like the possibility to use gas, but VERY likely would stick to flux core the more I read up on this process?

 

[alexpops]

The one issue with fluxcore that i have found on really thin stuff is that it burns hotter, & winds up burning through easier. The extra heat & slower fill due to hollow wire helps on structural stuff but winds up being too much for sheet metal. Warps and burns through. Try it, but be prepared to use gas if you are doing really thin stuff. There was a youtube video by fitzeefab comparing the two on 18 gauge patch panels & even he couldn't pull off decent patches with fluxcore.

 

[jjeff]

The one issue with fluxcore that i have found on really thin stuff is that it burns hotter, & winds up burning through easier. The extra heat & slower fill due to hollow wire helps on structural stuff but winds up being too much for sheet metal. Warps and burns through. Try it, but be prepared to use gas if you are doing really thin stuff. There was a youtube video by fitzeefab comparing the two on 18 gauge patch panels & even he couldn't pull off decent patches with fluxcore.

I found putting down multiple stitch welds work for me anyway when joining sheet metal using both mig and flux core.

 

[WranglerX]

I found putting down multiple stitch welds work for me anyway when joining sheet metal using both mig and flux core.

More or less yes.... General procedure for really thin stuff is not to run a bead but do a series of tack welds about a inch apart, then come back and do another series of tack welds adjoining previous one, and so on till you have a complete bond.... This eliminate excess heat in thin stuff and pretty much does away with "burn though"... Pretty much standard in places like auto repair shops when grafting new steel body parts to do a repair....

 

[WranglerX]

alexpops: I think you are ready to buy MIG unit, stop with the discussion and just decide on unit and buy it, and then deal with electrical power as necessary, in lieu of redoing all the wiring in shop just get or make up large extension cord to reach from receptical to welder... You are going to need one anyway as lead(s) on welder are always short enough to keep you from reaching work... I have 120 Volt MIG and use 20Amp receptical attached to 30Amp breaker (which is legal by "welder" section of NEC) and use a 25 foot 12 gauge extension cord.... After extensive session of welding I have checked temperature of breaker, receptacle/plug combinations and extension cord and found no appreciable heat rise to indicate a problem....

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Harbor Freight multiprocess welder. No reason to go to school with YouTube college available for free.

 

[Spike56]

alexpops: I think you are ready to buy MIG unit, stop with the discussion and just decide on unit and buy it, and then deal with electrical power as necessary, in lieu of redoing all the wiring in shop just get or make up large extension cord to reach from receptical to welder... You are going to need one anyway as lead(s) on welder are always short enough to keep you from reaching work... I have 120 Volt MIG and use 20Amp receptical attached to 30Amp breaker (which is legal by "welder" section of NEC) and use a 25 foot 12 gauge extension cord.... After extensive session of welding I have checked temperature of breaker, receptacle/plug combinations and extension cord and found no appreciable heat rise to indicate a problem....

It was me that started this thread?
"stop with the discussion and just decide on unit and buy it, and then deal with electrical power as necessary, in lieu of redoing all the wiring in shop just get or make up large extension cord to reach from receptacle to welder."
Wow thought the forum was for this purpose. Guess I was wrong.

 

[Spike56]

The one issue with fluxcore that i have found on really thin stuff is that it burns hotter, & winds up burning through easier. The extra heat & slower fill due to hollow wire helps on structural stuff but winds up being too much for sheet metal. Warps and burns through. Try it, but be prepared to use gas if you are doing really thin stuff. There was a youtube video by fitzeefab comparing the two on 18 gauge patch panels & even he couldn't pull off decent patches with fluxcore.

Yes, I have heard that about FluxCore, especially with Sheet Metal. I have no projects in mind for sheet metal. BUT the thin wall square (1/2) tubing (not sure of thickness) might be an issue. One project I know I would like to do is make arbors for tall plants/vines. My construction is Sq tubing or other metal frame and tack weld on some type of wire mesh. I have done it with the Stick, but that is exceedingly difficult, for me fand had numerous burn throughs on the wire and tubing.
I wish I could actually try FluxCore. Someone suggested I ask at my local AirGas and see if they had a demo. Might try that?

Thanks very much for the advice!

 

[WranglerX]

It was me that started this thread?
"stop with the discussion and just decide on unit and buy it, and then deal with electrical power as necessary, in lieu of redoing all the wiring in shop just get or make up large extension cord to reach from receptacle to welder."
Wow thought the forum was for this purpose. Guess I was wrong.

Ok. got wrong OP, sorry about that....
Yeah that is what the forum is for, but at some point it just becomes repetitious and it gets strung out like the 146+ pages on "how to remove rounded off drain plug"........ Sorry if my "Get-er-done" attitude walked all over your sensitivities.........

 

[alexpops]

A final thought on gas vs. fluxcore ... you say you'll be doing mainly "thinwall" 1/2 inch square tube. From what I see, 1/2" square standard tubing comes in either 18 or 16 gauge (.048" or .064"), so I'm assuming you are doing 18 gauge. Fluxcore won't be available in thinner than .030" wire, whereas solid will be available down to .023". Another difference is that with fluxcore, you're running DCEN and with Gas your usually DCEP. (DCEN gives you about 70% heat in the workpiece and 30% in the wire/DCEP flips that ratio) DCEN good for penetration and DCEP is why so many talk about MIG as an electric caulking gun with nice looking welds that have no strength. Even using WranglerX's spaced out tack weld approach of running tacks on opposite sides (preferred approach for thin stuff) you'd be putting so much heat into the work piece that blow through & warping will be REALLY hard to avoid unless you are stopping until everything cools down after a few tacks (if not each tack should getting around the piece be difficult). You'll also need to clean the slag off your set of tacks (wire brush) before doing the next set to avoid weld contamination/slag inclusion. Can it be done? yes, but you may lose interest in the project long before you've finished your 32-64 tacks per intersection times the number of intersections you have in the lattice (I'm assuming you want clean welds that you'll grind down to make the lattice look like a single pre-formed piece). Gas would at least eliminate cleaning slag between tacks, would help to cool the weld slightly, and would concentrate heat in the wire end vs the workpiece. If you'll never think about anything heavier, a 120 volt MIG up to 140 Amp will be plenty for 18 gauge or 16 gauge, as long as it'll do .023 wire and gas. If you want to make/repair bigger stuff, or play with aluminum, buy the bigger machine now (buy once cry once -- only get the spool gun & pure Argon tank later if you do end up playing with aluminum). You could save money (at the expense of more spatter) by using CO2 on steel instead of C25 or get a small bottle that you can upgrade later or keep as a spare if you find you really get into making stuff from steel. Another thing to consider ... make sure you can get/easily change out the roller wheel, tips & liner to accommodate .023 as well as .030/.035 wire -- or invest in two guns/whips -- one for .023 the other for .030/035 -- then you only need to change the roller when swapping wire & the guns are attached on the outside. Of the two you mentioned, the Lincoln would have an increase in capability over the Miller. But for the same price (1K-1.3K) you really should check out the MultiProcess Everlast PowerMTS in 211 or 251 or the MIG only Everlast Cyclone 212 @ 900. A few hundred bucks savings gets you a gas bottle or at least steel to play with. Good Luck, & make sure you let us know what way you went.

 

[Spike56]

Ok. got wrong OP, sorry about that....
Yeah that is what the forum is for, but at some point it just becomes repetitious and it gets strung out like the 146+ pages on "how to remove rounded off drain plug"........ Sorry if my "Get-er-done" attitude walked all over your sensitivities.........

Well, ok. I did not know how much discussion is too much, too repetitive for you. Been trying to get on the Welding site mentioned in in TBN, but no luck.

 

[alexpops]

try Welding Site
"https:" then "//weldingsite" then ".com/"

sorry ... keeps converting to a link

 

[w0eaj]

Hard to go wrong with MILLER. They often offer free classes at the dealers, so that could help you as well. Operate the unit on 240 vac... More [input] voltage, less [input] current required... welds will be more consistent.

 

[Spike56]

try Welding Site
"https:" then "//weldingsite" then ".com/"

sorry ... keeps converting to a link

No issues, I just cannot get an account setup there. It says it is sending me an email - which never comes ? Asked Moderator for help several times... no go.