Metal Thickness?

   / Metal Thickness?
  • Thread Starter
#41  

You need something like this for the drive matched to appropriate size hub motors
Now we're talking.
Because of the low HP of my Honda GX160 I was going to use a 6 position spool valve hooked to a double acting pump (with the 2 extra ports used to later upgrades or drivetrain)
But this (if being able to be used with 5 HP) I could hook it to two 4 position valves and get the continuous movement when using 2 cylinders.

Think that would work better?


You could do that with pneumatics if you have an air compressor. An 1800+ psi hydraulic unit sure wouldn’t take much cylinder.

Yeah, I have an 80 gallon 220psi compressor, but I'm not going to run a 600' air line to it to dig a hole for a post.

Lets talk hydraulics, what diameter cylinders and GPM should I be looking at?

I was going with a 11GPM pump because my valve choice was 11GPM, but if there are better options, Im all ears.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #42  
OP, How far of a reach are you wanting?

GPM, depends on how fast acting you want the cylinders. Like “X seconds from all the way retracted to all the way extended.” and is that in one axis or even if a combination (all) of them were working simultaneously.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #43  
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   / Metal Thickness?
  • Thread Starter
#44  
OP, How far of a reach are you wanting?

GPM, depends on how fast acting you want the cylinders. Like “X seconds from all the way retracted to all the way extended.” and is that in one axis or even if a combination (all) of them were working simultaneously.
I don't see me needing to dig more than 4' deep.
11 gpm seems pretty quick for a 2" cylinder at 14" (or whatever I measured, don't remember exactly"

I don’t know if they still have the free demo software for Working Model 2D - 2D Kinematics & Dynamics Software - Engineering Simulait but Working Model 2D is exactly what you need.

It allows you to change things on their base backhoe and see the effects of loads on pressures.
Eh, more learning?!
I suppose I'll look into it.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #45  
Now we're talking.
Because of the low HP of my Honda GX160 I was going to use a 6 position spool valve hooked to a double acting pump (with the 2 extra ports used to later upgrades or drivetrain)
But this (if being able to be used with 5 HP) I could hook it to two 4 position valves and get the continuous movement when using 2 cylinders.

Think that would work better?




Yeah, I have an 80 gallon 220psi compressor, but I'm not going to run a 600' air line to it to dig a hole for a post.

Lets talk hydraulics, what diameter cylinders and GPM should I be looking at?

I was going with a 11GPM pump because my valve choice was 11GPM, but if there are better options, Im all ears.
That double variable pump is intended for twin hydraulic hub motors in a skid steer setup. You would use this to drive the unit
 
   / Metal Thickness? #46  
You could do that with pneumatics if you have an air compressor. An 1800+ psi hydraulic unit sure wouldn’t take much cylinder.

You don’t want to use air for an excavator cylinder. Air has numerous problems vs oil but the most noteworthy is it can’t operate precisely since it’s compressible.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #47  
Now we're talking.
Because of the low HP of my Honda GX160 I was going to use a 6 position spool valve hooked to a double acting pump (with the 2 extra ports used to later upgrades or drivetrain)
But this (if being able to be used with 5 HP) I could hook it to two 4 position valves and get the continuous movement when using 2 cylinders.

Think that would work better?




Yeah, I have an 80 gallon 220psi compressor, but I'm not going to run a 600' air line to it to dig a hole for a post.

Lets talk hydraulics, what diameter cylinders and GPM should I be looking at?

I was going with a 11GPM pump because my valve choice was 11GPM, but if there are better options, Im all ears.

5 hp really isn’t enough hp for any kind of digger. It definitely isn’t enough hp for an 11 gpm pump. They have charts for that sort of thing. An 11 gpm pump producing 2500 psi needs more like 16 hp. If you’re going to keep the 5 hp motor you’d have to lower the pump to about 3.4 gpm at 2500 psi. I wouldn’t use cylinders any smaller than 2” bore, 1” rod just from a durability standpoint.
 
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   / Metal Thickness? #48  
That double variable pump is intended for twin hydraulic hub motors in a skid steer setup. You would use this to drive the unit
Then you could use a couple of diverter units to have each pump drive two twin open SCV circuits each. One pump could drive the boom cylinder and rotation or the left stick in a traditional two stick setup and the other pump could drive the Dipper stick and bucket cylinders or the right stick in a traditional two stick unit.
If you set the two variable pumps to run off of twin treadle systems you could control The unit like a skid steer, then flip the diverter valves to bypass the hub motors and send fluid to/from the double SCV units. You would need to either lock the treadles open one direction or keep both feet on them while you use the hoe portion.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #49  
Then you could use a couple of diverter units to have each pump drive two twin open SCV circuits each. One pump could drive the boom cylinder and rotation or the left stick in a traditional two stick setup and the other pump could drive the Dipper stick and bucket cylinders or the right stick in a traditional two stick unit.
If you set the two variable pumps to run off of twin treadle systems you could control The unit like a skid steer, then flip the diverter valves to bypass the hub motors and send fluid to/from the double SCV units. You would need to either lock the treadles open one direction or keep both feet on them while you use the hoe portion.

I wouldn’t want to have to completely dedicate hydraulic flow to the boom or tracks. It would be annoying to keep switching for one thing but you need the ability to track and use the boom at the same time. There’s a lot of reasons to do that but at the very minimum you need the boom to help it move when it’s nearly stuck.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #50  
I wouldn’t want to have to completely dedicate hydraulic flow to the boom or tracks. It would be annoying to keep switching for one thing but you need the ability to track and use the boom at the same time. There’s a lot of reasons to do that but at the very minimum you need the boom to help it move when it’s nearly stuck.
I absolutely agree. However, how much can you reasonably expect to do with five horsepower? You're asking a gas lawnmower engine to do the job of a 20hp diesel
 
   / Metal Thickness? #51  
I absolutely agree. However, how much can you reasonably expect to do with five horsepower? You're asking a gas lawnmower engine to do the job of a 20hp diesel

I’d use a bigger motor. The project is useless before it even got started with such a severe handicap.
 
   / Metal Thickness?
  • Thread Starter
#54  
I’d use a bigger motor. The project is useless before it even got started with such a severe handicap.

2 stage pump.

THE Northern Tool towable uses a 15 HP engine....... Think about it....
Go to site read the specs....

The HF uses a 9 HP, I believe it formerly used a 6.
I've read a 2 stage pump, while being crappy when it cycles, solves this problem.

I have a 2 Cylinder Kubota Diesel, and a Honda GC190....The 190 is used however.

If the engine won't work, just let me know and I'll adapt.
I want to use to Kubota for a future mini road grader, but that can wait.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #55  
2 stage pump.



The HF uses a 9 HP, I believe it formerly used a 6.
I've read a 2 stage pump, while being crappy when it cycles, solves this problem.

I have a 2 Cylinder Kubota Diesel, and a Honda GC190....The 190 is used however.

If the engine won't work, just let me know and I'll adapt.
I want to use to Kubota for a future mini road grader, but that can wait.

A 2 stage pump is alright for a wood splitter but you really don’t want it for a digger. It’s going to be dipping into the low side and slowing production to a crawl every scoop you take.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #56  
A retired friend of mine, who is a highly experienced operator of anything yellow was clearing for his new two car garage. I offered him my mini-ex (JD15), which I have lent him before. He declined my offer, saying that his neighbour offered him the use of a tow behind backhoe. After using it for a couple of days, he told me all about it, and that he should have taken me up on my offer. But, he's retired, and has the time... He said it was ponderously slow digging with the tow behind, as it was a single pump, and lower powered engine. He said it worked, but was just really slow, and did not have much oompf.

I've been very fortunate to always have decent equipment to use, both four stick and two stick, but with enough power and commercial design to "flow" as you operate it. For those here who do not have hoe experience, particularly two stick, once you get "on" the machine, your mind operates the bucket, not your hands. I can watch my bucket dig a very satisfying trench, while seeing my hands moving the levers all over the place. What my hands are doing is entirely unimportant to me if the bucket is digging the trench I want.

A single pump, or two stage pump machine is unlikely to ever get to that level of operation. Yes, you may be command more than in function at a time (as I did on the four stick Case 580), but if the next function suddenly steals hydraulic flow/power from the one that's already moving, you'll be forever chasing it, compensating for discontinuity in motion.

Now, a small grader.. VERY satisfying! I built one out of my 1970 MF14 Garden tractor. A center blade on the hydraulic lift, which also had down pressure. It worked so well, several local landscapers hired me to finish some topsoil and driveway work for them. Sadly, the Kohler engine gave up, and the tractor moved on. It has been replaced by a 1920 Adams tow behind grader on the three point hitch, which also works great - but that's thread drift for another topic!
 
   / Metal Thickness? #57  
I'll say go view the same or similar machine in person... Ohh take a measurements while there😁
 
   / Metal Thickness? #58  
I'll admit to not reading the whole thread. Short on time this morning.

But designing something like this.....the overall design, and how the metal is utilized, braced, gusseted, and supported is far more important than material strength.
 
   / Metal Thickness? #59  
Eh, more learning?!
I suppose I'll look into it.

Well, if you are unwilling to copy others that have already built and sold what you are wanting, you are going to have to learn things you don’t know, for the machine to be successful in achieving your goals.

Either that or you will wind up with something that may or may not be sufficient. Would you rather learn before you build or after?
 
   / Metal Thickness?
  • Thread Starter
#60  
Well, if you are unwilling to copy others that have already built and sold what you are wanting, you are going to have to learn things you don’t know, for the machine to be successful in achieving your goals.

Either that or you will wind up with something that may or may not be sufficient. Would you rather learn before you build or after?

I am trying to copy a known, functioning machine; minus the drivetrain.
 

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