Generator wiring

[WranglerX]

The few times I run our 9kW portable generator I simply go in this order:
1) Turn main and all breakers off in main panel box, (except to garage 250 ft.away.)
2) Connect generator to welder outlet, leaving just garage main and welder breaker on.
3) Run generator.
4) At house turn well pump and water heater breaker on, as well as refrigerator.
5) Meter display let's me know when power is restored. A pilot light on main breaker meter side does same thing.
6) Shut generator off.
7) Disconnect generator.
8) Garage breakers on.
9) Main breaker on and others in main box.

Thought it works...IT is not a very safe situation, should be avoided..........

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Curious why?

 

[WranglerX]

Mainly because there is no positive interlock to protect house or utility company for back feed, if depends on you doing it 100% correct and that is not always the case when you may be rushed to get power back up so angry wife can watch her soap opera....

ALSO against all electrical codes to back feed any circuits in manner you suggest and just missing one breaker may cause a back feed problem and supply voltage down the line and injure or a kill a worker on utility line if they in a rush have not grounded out all the lines....

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

My wife could care less about tv. Following the steps, backfeeding into the grid is impossible. Impossible.
(You edited "wifey").

 

[LouNY]

" Following the steps, backfeeding into the grid is impossible. Impossible."

Following all the steps each time carefully you are correct.
However;
screw up just once and you may be in for a shocking experience.
I would not be so concerned about backfeeding the utility system, while it is possible to do so most little portable generators to not have enough drive to load a transformer and send power down the line.
What is more likely to happen is throwing the main breaker on while the generator breaker is still on.
When that happens you are likely to be introduced to a phenomenon know as arc flash,
if you are lucky it will just be some burns and nicks.
Of course it could be a bit more severe such as losing fingers or sight or death.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

The few times I've used generator I follow those steps precisely.
We turn main breaker off during a severe lightning storm as well since I wired a surge protector on secondary side. Lightning would have to jump main breaker where there's a surge protector to ground. We've never had problems.
Lots of neighbors here have Generac or similar systems, although in 42 years we've hardly ever lost power. When we do it's off maybe 1-2 hours max.

 

[orezok]

The few times I've used generator I follow those steps precisely.
We turn main breaker off during a severe lightning storm as well since I wired a surge protector on secondary side. Lightning would have to jump main breaker where there's a surge protector to ground. We've never had problems.
Lots of neighbors here have Generac or similar systems, although in 42 years we've hardly ever lost power. When we do it's off maybe 1-2 hours max.

Thats all well and good, but what if you are somewhere else and your wife or brother-in-law sez, OK, I can get us power back up. You ready to schedule a funeral? Don’t say that they know better, because they probably don’t.

 

[etpm]

More feedback = more valuable. Regarding an automatic transfer, I wasn't thinking of a generator that would come on automatically, but a device that would automatically switch the panels from incoming grid juice to gen juice when the generator is started up with a pull cord. This isn't the first time I have imagined devices that don't exist.

The concept of a manual transfer switch is most appealing. IMHO manual anything is almost always better than automatic. The comment that my system appears to backfeed the grid may be enough proof that it has never been used. The observation that the well pump is all that is truly necessary is spot on, but maybe add the refrig.

Your first post didn't have pictures and I assumed (dangerous, I know, and proved here) that there was a transfer switch. I assumed this because of the extra panel. I have a similar panel, made by Generac, but it has a transfer switch. For the panel I have there were apparently two options, manual switching or automatic switching. I bought my panel second hand. It was unused and set up for automatic switching but lacked some control components so I wired the switching solenoid for manual control. In any case the way my setup works there is no chance of backfeeding. There is also no way the utility power can enter my panel unless the generator is disconnected. In fact, once utility power is present the panel automatically switches from the generator back to the utility. This removes the generator from the circuit and the generator cannot be connected again unless a human actually actuates a switch. So both the folks working on the lines and myself are protected,
But from your pictures it looks to me as if there is no switching protection. As near as I can tell from your pictures you need one of some sort. There are available several schemes that allow power to come from either the utility or the generator, but never both. Some are purely mechanical, and may be your best option. They are certainly the least expensive and are widely available.
You do not want one that connects your generator as soon as you pull the start cord. The generator should be running at the proper RPM and warmed up enough to not lose significant RPM once connected to the load. Some generators, mostly the cheaper ones, can lose their ability to self magnetize and so do not produce the proper voltage and amperage if started when under too much load. I'm tired right now and don't feel like explaining why this happens and how to overcome this problem if it happens. But it can be avoided simply by starting the generator and letting it warm up for a little bit until it is off of the choke and running at the proper RPM. Usually less than one minute. I'm talking pull start gasoline generators, not propane or diesel generators.
And even though the wiring in the main panel is a mess I would still leave it alone unless you are sure you can clean it up without adding any length to any wires. You should be very confident in your ability to do a better job. Lots of folks use wire nuts the wrong way, especially when connecting stranded wire to solid wire. I know, it seems simple, anybody can do it. But lots of folks make connections with wire nuts that fail. Many time they fail hot. And cause fires.
If you do decide to clean your panel up and find out you need a longer wire then do not use a short length of wire and another wire nut to make the wire longer. Instead replace the whole length of wire with one the proper length. This will require pulling wire from one panel to the other and will take some extra time as well as possibly buying some wire.
Cheers,
Eric

 

[richyrich3rd]

Hey all .. I've set a lot of people up with generators .. figured out what they're needs where in case they lost power and in just about every case most people can run they're house on a 5000 watt generator ( most ) I myself run mine on a 10000watt I have electric hot water and geothermal furnace and a sub well .. so all three of these run on 220 and if ( by chance ) all three would come on at the same time it may shut down the smaller generator due to the amount of draw. I made instead of buying the $120 pc of metal switch plate that goes in your breaker box that trips the main breaker when the breaker is turned on for the generator .. in other words both can not be turned on at the same time .. if one is in the off position the other is on and visa versa .. very simple idea but not worth $120 for this lil pc of metal ( but ) very much needed since you never want to back feed the electric out and kill the poor guy trying to restore your service and or have the electric come back on and blow your generator out !

When I set a generator up in most cases we throw a 100amp breaker in ( has to go right under the main on the top of the panel .. when they loose power .. you fire the generator up throw the switch nad you carry on as if you never lost power .. I highly suggest installing ( if you can ) a high voltage led on one of the incoming legs ( meter pulled of course ) so you know when the power is back on .. unless a neighbor is close by to see his lights on when the power is restored .. saves you from switching back and forth the breaker to see if it's back on .. lol !

Hey guys .. just found this on Amazon .. not bad .. far better than $120 !

And as always .. be safe .. never asume the power is off .. always treat lines in or around the house as klive wires .. you never know .. and if your not sure or secure by all means .. leave it to someone that does know .. 110 kills .. have a Blessed Day

Mainly because there is no positive interlock to protect house or utility company for back feed, if depends on you doing it 100% correct and that is not always the case when you may be rushed to get power back up so angry wife can watch her soap opera....

ALSO against all electrical codes to back feed any circuits in manner you suggest and just missing one breaker may cause a back feed problem and supply voltage down the line and injure or a kill a worker on utility line if they in a rush have not grounded out all the lines....

Hey .. they're is a positive way to make sure you can't backfeed .. this lil simmple switch plate will garrantee you're not going to throw the electric back at the man working to restore your power .. can't have both on at the same time .. check it out .. these used to sell for $120 ( I made my own ) but at this price .. it's well worth it and not all the trouble I went through !

When I set a generator up in most cases we throw a 100amp breaker in ( has to go right under the main on the top of the panel for the generator .. when you loose power .. you fire the generator up throw the switch nad you carry on as if you never lost power .. I highly suggest installing ( if you can ) a high voltage led on one of the incoming legs ( meter pulled of course ) so you know when the power is back on .. unless a neighbor is close by to see his lights on when the power is restored .. saves you from switching back and forth the breaker to see if it's back on .. lol !

Hey guys .. just found this on Amazon .. not bad .. far better than $120 ! https://www.amazon.com/Generator-In...cphy=9006094&hvtargid=pla-1651240294762&psc=1

And as always .. be safe .. never asume the power is off .. always treat lines in or around the house as klive wires .. you never know .. and if your not sure or secure by all means .. leave it to someone that does know .. 110 kills .. have a Blessed Day

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Thats all well and good, but what if you are somewhere else and your wife or brother-in-law sez, OK, I can get us power back up. You ready to schedule a funeral? Don’t say that they know better, because they probably don’t.

Everyone's situation is different. I'm not going to change the way I do things just to appease a scenario that doesn't exist! Anyone is welcome installing anything they wish here at their expense. It's just the two of us here, no kids, brother in law etc., no use in fantasy dreams not based in reality. My wife is a smart lady, retired technician who knows not to flip breakers on if/when generator is running.
Two disconnect switches: manual and automatic. The main breaker IS a manual disconnect switch. Now automatic...does anyone believe they're 100% fail-safe? Could it malfunction? Personally I'm much rather have a manual disconnect.
Finally, the very few times we've lost power an electric company tech goes door to door making sure generators are off before power is restored!
Now orezok...your turn making up fantasy stories, you can tell us about funerals, flower arrangements and kinds of hearses.
Go for it.

 

[grsthegreat]

i should have taken pictures of a generator i was called to look at a few years ago. guy backfed panel with a suicide plug for many years, no issues. no interlock for many years, no issue. than comes one time when he was tired from moving snow and shoveling walkways. power came back on, he went and threw main breaker back on...but didnt unhook generator,. blew up generator. and melted a bunch of his panel. he wanted me to bid to replace main panel. i decided against doing any work on this job because i have retired as an electrician and didnt want the headaches. but the generator was destroyed. a bunch of circuits in his house wernt working. quite the mess. all this because he didnt want to use a $49 interlock.

just saying

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Just saying...sure hope no one here drives!
(Priorities?) Oh well...here goes:
More than TWICE as many bicycle deaths than electrocution deaths!:

People are injured or killed by electricity every year. Statistics tell us that there are over 400 electrocutions and over 4000 non-fatal injuries every year in the United States.

Traffic fatalities in US, 2020...38,824
Traffic injuries in US, 2020...2,280,000
2.28 MILLION injuries!
Unintentional deaths in US, 200,955
Fall deaths...42,114
Poisoning deaths...87,404
Opioid deaths in US, 2020...60,000/yr.
Pedestrian deaths in US, 2017...5,233
Bicycle fatalities...1,000 with 130,000 injuries
Drowning deaths...4,000/yr.
Gun-related deaths from preventable, intentional, and undetermined causes totaled 45,222 in 2020, an increase of 13.9% from 39,707 deaths in 2019. Suicides account for 54% of deaths related to firearms, while 43% were homicides, and about 1% were preventable/accidental.
In 2020, 368 farmers and farm workers died from a work-related injury, resulting in a fatality rate of 18.0 deaths per 100,000 workers.
Bottom line: tractor fatalities (rollovers) about equal electrocutions...however...factor in time spent/year on a tractor vs time spent/year fooling with electricity.

 

[grsthegreat]

I hate flawed logic. I once did a service call on an old house that had no lights in bathroom. When i started to look at job, i found that entire house was wired with 2 wire lamp cord. Honestly. The 20 ga lamp cord like you see on old lamps. Turns out the guys grandfather wired it many years ago with scrap wire. Has worked great for all these years.

i left job without fixing anything. Im not going to be part of a lawsuit if the place goes up in flames and i was last guy working on it.

just because its worked all these years doesnt make it right.

if someone insists on not making something safe, knowing its installed wrong, all injuries are on them. Hope you can live with results.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

"Hope you can live with results."
Who the heck is 'you'?
I hate flawed logic as well!

 

[grsthegreat]

Someone whos spent his working years safely wiring houses to prevent needless injuries. Thats who.

seen the results of sloppy homeowner work too many times.

im not here to get into fight over this. The OP was asking how to fix the mess in his panel. Were trying to tell him the proper way to do it, not a way to jerry rig it. 30+ year electrical contractor here. 10 years specialization in backup generators.

im thru here. Have a good night

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Which is why read my post #6..."this is a case where paying an electrician I would do."

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

The few times I run our 9kW portable generator I simply go in this order:
1) Turn main and all breakers off in main panel box, (except to garage 250 ft.away.)
2) Connect generator to welder outlet, leaving just garage main and welder breaker on.
3) Run generator.
4) At house turn well pump and water heater breaker on, as well as refrigerator.
5) Meter display let's me know when power is restored. A pilot light on main breaker meter side does same thing.
6) Shut generator off.
7) Disconnect generator.
8) Garage breakers on.
9) Main breaker on and others in main box.

Some Utility Companies will give you a notice to repair this installation and get it inspected if they know about it. If you don't complete the repair in a timely manner they can pull your meter until it is repaired and inspected.
The only safe installation with generators is one with a transfer switch or panel interlock between Main breaker and generator breaker.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Some Utility Companies will give you a notice to repair this installation and get it inspected if they know about it. If you don't complete the repair in a timely manner they can pull your meter until it is repaired and inspected.
The only safe installation with generators is one with a transfer switch or panel interlock between Main breaker and generator breaker.

It works, we don't fear death using it once every five years if that. No one will pull meter...no worries.

 

[etpm]

Just saying...sure hope no one here drives!
(Priorities?) Oh well...here goes:
More than TWICE as many bicycle deaths than electrocution deaths!:

People are injured or killed by electricity every year. Statistics tell us that there are over 400 electrocutions and over 4000 non-fatal injuries every year in the United States.

Traffic fatalities in US, 2020...38,824
Traffic injuries in US, 2020...2,280,000
2.28 MILLION injuries!
Unintentional deaths in US, 200,955
Fall deaths...42,114
Poisoning deaths...87,404
Opioid deaths in US, 2020...60,000/yr.
Pedestrian deaths in US, 2017...5,233
Bicycle fatalities...1,000 with 130,000 injuries
Drowning deaths...4,000/yr.
Gun-related deaths from preventable, intentional, and undetermined causes totaled 45,222 in 2020, an increase of 13.9% from 39,707 deaths in 2019. Suicides account for 54% of deaths related to firearms, while 43% were homicides, and about 1% were preventable/accidental.
In 2020, 368 farmers and farm workers died from a work-related injury, resulting in a fatality rate of 18.0 deaths per 100,000 workers.
Bottom line: tractor fatalities (rollovers) about equal electrocutions...however...factor in time spent/year on a tractor vs time spent/year fooling with electricity.

Your post kinda says it at the end with the last sentence. But really, if the numbers of deaths and injuries are to have the proper significance then the numbers must also be shown as a ratio. Your last sentence tried to say this but was not as clear as it should have been. In fact, I think posting all the numbers above without also posting ratios makes the data presented inadequate and misleading.
Eric

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Your post kinda says it at the end with the last sentence. But really, if the numbers of deaths and injuries are to have the proper significance then the numbers must also be shown as a ratio. Your last sentence tried to do this but was not as clear as it should have been. In fact, I think posting all the numbers above without also posting ratios makes the data presented inadequate and misleading.
Eric

What I'm saying is if someone is so concerned with death or injury from electrocution they should be MUCH MORE concerned with death or injury from driving.
Correct?
Note that my post #6 my advice to the OP is decide what he wants, cleaning up the main panel...bringing it up to modern code...that's best left to an electrician.
Here, the very rare cases I've used my generator things are done in sequence. A few neighbors had Generac systems installed which to me is ludicrous.