Another confused first timer

[K5lwq]

What tasks will a 48HP, common rail, electronic controlled tractor perform that my 48HP Branson could not perform? Guess I do not know what "severely compromised performance" means.

 

[IndyJay]

My Kioti dealer offered me the use of his demonstrator when I was in the market a few years ago.

My case dealer invited me to the corporate proving grounds in Tomahawk, Wi for the day to test drive construction equipment when I was in the market for a CTL a year later.
Why wouldn’t one expect that?

Also, all engines have to meet the same emission standards. A Branson with a low pressure mechanical fuel system and no electronics will have severely compromised performance than a competitor with high pressure common rail and full electronic control.

Branson doesn’t have their own set of laws on combustion and emissions formation on a Diesel engine. They meet the regulations by compromising performance.

It is really is kind of funny if you think about it. Current practice would be like going to a car dealer and your test drive is limited to the parking lot. I test drove tractors at 7 different dealers, all were in a fairly limited space. I did get to see how well the tractors operated in tight spaces.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

It is really is kind of funny if you think about it. Current practice would be like going to a car dealer and your test drive is limited to the parking lot. I test drove tractors at 7 different dealers, all were in a fairly limited space. I did get to see how the tractors operated in tight spaces.

Exactly which doesn't make any sense. Well said.

 

[kenmac]

What tasks will a 48HP, common rail, electronic controlled tractor perform that my 48HP Branson could not perform? Guess I do not know what "severely compromised performance" means.

I guess it means more problems and maintenance .
You have to take your tractor to the dealer for repairs to the emission systems.
If I were buying new, it would be a branson with a non ECM

 

[rScotty]

We have County and State fairs here in the Fall. At least that was the case 20 years ago. Most all of the tractor dealers are there with their latest models and set up so you can give them a more extensive test.

That's one place to go if you want to do more of a test drive.

In fact, I was told that's why our M59 had about 30 hours on it when we first saw it..... it was just back from the State Fair.
rScotty

 

[LouNY]

Farm tractors (90 HP+) are often demo'd on the farm,
and I have seen smaller utility units brought out for a day two or more to see how well they fit the farms need

 

[rScotty]

Farm tractors (90 HP+) are often demo'd on the farm,
and I have seen smaller utility units brought out for a day two or more to see how well they fit the farms need

Yes,... when I was young a tractor demo at someone's place was an excuse for an adult daytime social event.

That may be ancient history now. And probably always was more likely on larger grain-growing farms than hay & pasture land. Or on homeowner size farms.
rScotty

 

[finn1]

What tasks will a 48HP, common rail, electronic controlled tractor perform that my 48HP Branson could not perform? Guess I do not know what "severely compromised performance" means.

For one, the common rail with pilot injection will start faster and clean up faster. It will be quieter and generate less smoke. It will also have better fuel economy, and higher torque rise.

Tractor manufacturers aren’t stupid, and neither are the engineering teams that design and develop the engines and powertrain.

Do you actually believe that 1960s technology is better than 2021 technology?

Do you live under a rock?

Have you ever operated a modern tractor or do you go by what you read from a few biased people on the internet.

Look at Branson’s website glorifying their obsolete technology. It reads like it was written by a twelve year old to anybody that’s designed engines for a living. Absolutely no technical content. Just barroom talk.

 

[Torvy]

or do you go by what you read from a few biased people on the internet.

I think I smell irony.

 

[K5lwq]

For one, the common rail with pilot injection will start faster and clean up faster. It will be quieter and generate less smoke. It will also have better fuel economy, and higher torque rise.

Tractor manufacturers aren’t stupid, and neither are the engineering teams that design and develop the engines and powertrain.

Do you actually believe that 1960s technology is better than 2021 technology?

Do you live under a rock?

Have you ever operated a modern tractor or do you go by what you read from a few biased people on the internet.

Look at Branson’s website glorifying their obsolete technology. It reads like it was written by a twelve year old to anybody that’s designed engines for a living. Absolutely no technical content. Just barroom talk.

Still did not answer what tasks can a common rail tractor do that mine won't.

As far as reading the internet for answers, I really did not do much of that at all. I went and tried many different brands and used my personal experience to determine what was right for me.

Spending most of my life in and around farming and performing all of my own service drove my decision. The Branson starts immediately with no issues even in cold weather.

I no longer need to plant 5000 acres of row crop and maintain the other 11,000 but enjoy doing what I do.

I have no problem with saying common rail systems are more efficient but it is not as much as some believe. It certainly is not worth the cost when something fails for me. I can diagnose and repair my tractors without any need for a dealer or computer.

But it also does not bother me at all that someone else likes having a ECM and common rail. I wish them the best.

 

[rScotty]

I think my perspective is the same as any mechanic.

We can see that an ECM and common rail system should be more efficient than a mechanical injection system. At least it certainly has the potential to be.

But the difference today is that although I can diagnose the mechanical system with basic tools that I am familiar with using, I cannot do that with ECM & Common Rail (CR) because access is denied by the manufacturer.

The ECM & CR technology is simple, and there is no reason in the world why a mechanic shouldn't be able to plug any ECM into a home computer to examine and modify how both ECM and injectors are working. That is just basic diagnosis.

But we cannot do that if the software and even the connectors are proprietary & "dealer only".

Keeping that access proprietary is pure selfishness on the part of politicians and big business. It is a profit motivated effort to exclude mechanics and owners everywhere.

Please support the "Right to Repair" movement.
rScotty

 

[DieselBound]

^^^ TOTALLY!

I've got totally manual setups (my generator, my 12v cummins, my B7800) and I've got computerized stuff. Everything I have works and continues to work just as I need. My car has an ECM and it's 21 years old: can it go bad? Yes. Need I be worrying about that? NO. (ECM has only minimal engine control stuff; I do have software/hardware to check with- so far only thing that I've ever had fail has been a MAF [$100 part- 2 minutes to change out]). I wouldn't trade my car for any new car. I also wouldn't trade it for any older car.

It comes down to what risk an individual is willing to take. To each their own, just as it should be. But, they're not making the old stuff anymore, so one day the options will be drastically reduced.

 

[Chilliwack Murray]

I think my perspective is the same as any mechanic.

We can see that an ECM and common rail system should be more efficient than a mechanical injection system. At least it certainly has the potential to be.

But the difference today is that although I can diagnose the mechanical system with basic tools that I am familiar with using, I cannot do that with ECM & Common Rail (CR) because access is denied by the manufacturer.

The ECM & CR technology is simple, and there is no reason in the world why a mechanic shouldn't be able to plug any ECM into a home computer to examine and modify how both ECM and injectors are working. That is just basic diagnosis.

But we cannot do that if the software and even the connectors are proprietary & "dealer only".

Keeping that access proprietary is pure selfishness on the part of politicians and big business. It is a profit motivated effort to exclude mechanics and owners everywhere.

Please support the "Right to Repair" movement.
rScotty

It’s actually the emissions regulations that are the main reason you can’t access much without proprietary software. Same principal as tamperproof adjustments on carburetors - you can adjust an engine out of emission compliance with that software and the way the rules are written the manufacturer is often still liable for the non compliance.

Unfortunately the manufacturers are all too happy to keep it proprietary and keep everyone else locked out for obvious reasons.

Right to repair needs to be on everyone’s agenda especially these days when government professes to promote reducing waste. There is no good reason to junk everything after a few years but manufacturers have never supported products much more than about 5 years, that was always the bread and butter of aftermarket. Without right to repair, aftermarket is shut out of supporting older products.

Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say.

 

[DieselBound]

It’s actually the emissions regulations that are the main reason you can’t access much without proprietary software. Same principal as tamperproof adjustments on carburetors - you can adjust an engine out of emission compliance with that software and the way the rules are written the manufacturer is often still liable for the non compliance.

Unfortunately the manufacturers are all too happy to keep it proprietary and keep everyone else locked out for obvious reasons.

Right to repair needs to be on everyone’s agenda especially these days when government professes to promote reducing waste. There is no good reason to junk everything after a few years but manufacturers have never supported products much more than about 5 years, that was always the bread and butter of aftermarket. Without right to repair, aftermarket is shut out of supporting older products.

Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say.

You can provide access to information AND be kept from changing things that ought not be changed. I see no problem with this: VCDS, which is an aftermarket diagnostic tool for VAG (Volkswagon Automative Group), allows you to check lots of things, adjust some, and disallows modifications to others. I believe that owners should at least be able to know what the computer believes is problematic as this could point to something simple. And herein lies the problem with such tools- they give you something to go by but they're not going to tell you for certain what is wrong.

"Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say."

Without seeing the specifics that's an overcharged assertion. If something meets OEM specs for the specified use/vehicle then it's legal. I don't see how any court could find otherwise.

 

[rScotty]

You can provide access to information AND be kept from changing things that ought not be changed. I see no problem with this: VCDS, which is an aftermarket diagnostic tool for VAG (Volkswagon Automative Group), allows you to check lots of things, adjust some, and disallows modifications to others. I believe that owners should at least be able to know what the computer believes is problematic as this could point to something simple. And herein lies the problem with such tools- they give you something to go by but they're not going to tell you for certain what is wrong.

"Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say."

Without seeing the specifics that's an overcharged assertion. If something meets OEM specs for the specified use/vehicle then it's legal. I don't see how any court could find otherwise.

A lot of this hasn't been challenged in the courts. If "Right to Repair" becomes a popular movement then it will be, and probably big business will lose their right to dictage to the common person what they can do.

But until them, we are still at the mercy of big business and their political and profit policies. They have figured out a way to exclude the little people.

Please support "Right to Repair". You don't have to repair things, but at least let people have the right to do so. At the same time, we can figure out what eco-restriants make sense & which are pure politics.

rScotty

 

[Chilliwack Murray]

You can provide access to information AND be kept from changing things that ought not be changed. I see no problem with this: VCDS, which is an aftermarket diagnostic tool for VAG (Volkswagon Automative Group), allows you to check lots of things, adjust some, and disallows modifications to others. I believe that owners should at least be able to know what the computer believes is problematic as this could point to something simple. And herein lies the problem with such tools- they give you something to go by but they're not going to tell you for certain what is wrong.

"Emission rules even make it illegal to replace some emission components with non OEM so once the OEM support is gone it’s illegal to repair. Stop the insanity as someone used to say."

Without seeing the specifics that's an overcharged assertion. If something meets OEM specs for the specified use/vehicle then it's legal. I don't see how any court could find otherwise.

It certainly is possible to only lock out certain functions but it is in the OEMs best interest to restrict access as much as possible and the epa regulations give them an excuse that the government is happy to go along with.

There are a number of aftermarket tuning tools available for various brands but they are developed without the support and against the wishes of the OEMs - classified as reverse engineering. They are either skirting or in outright violation of epa regs depending on the parameters they can access. One of the most popular of these tools is Forscan which comes out of Russia where the epa cannot get at them.

I work for a major OEM at a high level so I see both sides but I firmly believe in right to repair for environmental and moral reasons and even to support the progress of technology. Many of our great advancements in the 20th century came from people tinkering, not from OEMs who have an financial interest in running existing technology as long as the market allows.

There are many people at high levels who believe no one but OEMs or at least certified mechanics should be allowed to do any repairs on a vehicle. Sounds nice and safe but think about the consequences for average joe.

 

[DieselBound]

It certainly is possible to only lock out certain functions but it is in the OEMs best interest to restrict access as much as possible and the epa regulations give them an excuse that the government is happy to go along with.

There are a number of aftermarket tuning tools available for various brands but they are developed without the support and against the wishes of the OEMs - classified as reverse engineering. They are either skirting or in outright violation of epa regs depending on the parameters they can access. One of the most popular of these tools is Forscan which comes out of Russia where the epa cannot get at them.

I work for a major OEM at a high level so I see both sides but I firmly believe in right to repair for environmental and moral reasons and even to support the progress of technology. Many of our great advancements in the 20th century came from people tinkering, not from OEMs who have an financial interest in running existing technology as long as the market allows.

There are many people at high levels who believe no one but OEMs or at least certified mechanics should be allowed to do any repairs on a vehicle. Sounds nice and safe but think about the consequences for average joe.

I get it that some/man/most are wanting to maximize their profits, but, as they say, unless you can demonstrate in a court of law it's just conjecture.

I'm as cynical as they come, but I don't allow that mindset to overwhelm all other cranial functions.

I am the ONLY person allowed to work on my wife's car. Yeah, I completely GET that there are reasons to work on things that one OWNS (though, more and more, and I believe that's the bigger push- leasing, which then pretty much eliminates a non-owner on working on stuff).

Oh yeah, I am aware of some far more sinister stuff that's going on. While I appreciate folks pushing back on some things, there are larger things that will be overarching such that all the smaller stuff that we're tussling over will be swept up. Don't get me wrong that I don't care, it's just that a full perspective is what's needed- sadly, we're wiping up spilled milk while the entire house burns down.

Spoiler alert: it all ain't going to come out well.

 

[rScotty]

SNIP

Oh yeah, I am aware of some far more sinister stuff that's going on. While I appreciate folks pushing back on some things, there are larger things that will be overarching such that all the smaller stuff that we're tussling over will be swept up. Don't get me wrong that I don't care, it's just that a full perspective is what's needed- sadly, we're wiping up spilled milk while the entire house burns down.

I've been wondering when people would stop putting all of their effort into reducing the things we haven't been able to change. Like atmospheric change... and at least begin to put some effort into reducing the inevitable results - like flooding of coastal cities, inland weather extremes, & changes in growing crops - that now seem like they will be a part of our future.

We've missed the early train. Might still be time to catch the next one....
rScotty

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

There are many people at high levels who believe no one but OEMs or at least certified mechanics should be allowed to do any repairs on a vehicle. Sounds nice and safe but think about the consequences for average joe.

And I would say those are the people that stand to profit from that type of thinking to.

 

[DieselBound]

I've been wondering when people would stop putting all of their effort into reducing the things we haven't been able to change. Like atmospheric change... and at least begin to put some effort into reducing the inevitable results - like flooding of coastal cities, inland weather extremes, & changes in growing crops - that now seem like they will be a part of our future.

We've missed the early train. Might still be time to catch the next one....
rScotty

Sadly, some of the things we haven't been able to change are due to self-protection of/by the System (and ruling oligarchy). But, I agree that it makes sense to start thinking about Plan B. Draconian measures are going to come whether we want them or not: if not imposed from/through others, then via Nature. Food, Shelter Water.