Solder question (on household copper pipe)

[Richard]

Simple question first, details after: How many times can you solder, reheat it to take apart, put back and take apart before you have any copper issues (if any?)

Scenario:

Imagine you're framing in a bathroom shower. Hire a plumber and he plumbs everything (BUT swaps the hot/cold sides such that the hot is also supplying the toilet... )

He installs pipes for the shower head, handles and a remote hand held. He puts some 1x6's between the studs to support the copper pipes as they move from one vertical stud to another. On the hand held, instead of putting a female fitting with ears (not sure what it's called) that you can screw a nipple into.... he sweats a copper pipe extension and on that he sweats a male nipple. "ok" on the surface..... until the tile guy comes and doesn't catch it.... turns out by the time the backer board and tile are installed, the tile guy calls me in to let me know that there's an issue.... the threads to mount the base for the hand held are now FLUSH with his tile.

(why the moron didn't see this sooner in his process is beyond me.....but then I admit that I also didn't notice/catch the mounting that the plumber installed)

Well....this might not be a huge issue.... as it turns out I can cut a 12x12 piece of drywall out on the other side and get "some" access to these parts. (I have a knee wall in the way and a toilet in the way so I'm leaning over near 45 degree angle to investigate this BUT it's too late to fix it correctly on the tile side....

So now I'm leaning over & reaching out....working through a 12x12...oh, I've got studs on the left, stud on the right and then I have that confounded 1x6 blocking things. The copper pipe comes up from floor and pulls a 90 to go to the OTHER side of the stud (which is mostly covered by drywall but I can stretch my fingers in there to manipulate things.

Point being, this is like doing surgery on the wall from the BACK side with visual and physical obstructions in the way.

I finally got the original pipe out of the wall and replaced it with the correct parts however, something isn't aligned perfectly.... when you screw the base onto the nipple it goes on at an angle so part of it is going to dig into the tile and the other part has maybe 1/4" gap.

So I need to take it apart.

Yesterday, I (using MAP gas) heated it with wife in shower hoping she could wiggle it a bit to change angle. Didn't work. I now think (but haven't looked as it was hot) anyway, I now think the parts are not fully soldered together.... which is fine. I need to take it apart and try again. I MIGHT slightly enlarge the hole via tile so I can insert a screwdriver to screw the ears to the stud (something he also didn't do) under the hope that it will hold it straight.....but then....I don't know that the relation of the stud to the tile is parallel.....

I've used an auto mechanic mirror (about 2x3 inches) for some of this so I told the wife I now know how a dentist feels when looking at their mirror....it's all backwards!

This is like doing surgery through a belly button, using a mirror so it's all backwards AND you have wood obstructions in the way.

Sigh.

I ultimately am wondering how many times can the copper pipe be heated/reheated before I might have any issues with it? Normally I'm once & done when I'm soldering and if not, I get it the second time when I adjust it.

I fear this is going to be a bigger project than "simply" soldering the parts back in.

 

[KennyG]

Sounds like a horrible situation. I've had some similar issues but none quite like yours. The only good news is that I don't think you have to worry about the copper. The heat to solder it isn't high enough to damage the metal. I've heated copper multiple times with no noticeable effect.

 

[Roadworthy]

You should be able to disassemble and resolder your pipes several times. Beware that too much heat can burn the flux making it useless. I've not used MAPP gas for soldering plumbing. I find propane quite adequate.

 

[Streetcar]

You can resolder copper multiple times. I have heated pipe to red hot to make flexible with no I'll effect

 

[ponytug]

Sorry to hear about the mess. If it is any consolation, been there, done that.

You can solder multiple times with no issues. If you get the copper too hot, you can melt it with MAP gas, but you have to really try, and you will know it when you do it. If things get too out of hand, you can always switch to copper tubing or PEX for the last few feet/inches. I wouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good enough.

All the best, Peter

 

[jaxs]

The copper isn't going to suffer from Map re-heats. The worst case would be that hard copper is annealed and become flexiable like copper tube.
Considering your appearant level of skill,I have to wonder why you paid that inbred plumber rather than doing it yourself the first time.

 

[Richard]

I was working in Florida at the time she had this done (house is in TN and I was in Florida for almost three years)

Update: I've cut away most of the wood. Notched the 2x4 that the pipe goes through. Looks like, how to describe this, looks like the hole in the 2x4 wasn't at an optimal spot so when you turned 90 degrees, it caused the fitting to hit the wood (INSIDE the hole) forcing it at an odd angle, giving me my issues)

I took my oscillating saw and notched it so I can simply slide the copper in/out via the slot verses the hole....discovered this issue so chipped away on the back side of the "hole" allowing the fittings to turn the corner a bit more tight.

I can't get the union off easily so I'm going to cut it.

Dawned on me....I can get my 90 to turn the corner and maybe use a pair of street 45's to wiggle the angle a bit and give me more broad coverage.

I think this is going to work.

Oh, and as I was de-soldering (de-sweating? un-sweating?)

As I was de-soldering, I took the emory cloth to the fitting I took off (male end) and while sanding on it to smooth down the tinning that the solder left, it dawned on me that copper is one of the elements.... and would probably solder again.

Yes, it was then that I slipped and turned the fitting in my fingertips....and burned my thumb and finger.

Heading into town in few minutes to get the parts I need & maybe go to dinner with the wife. I'll try to take a picture of what I'm doing after we get back or, maybe in the morning.

 

[Richard]

Where I cut the wood and now have "nothing" behind the ears to screw them to.... I'm going to mount a short piece of 2x4 to screw the fitting to and then I'll screw another 1x6 behind it making it flush with the studs and then I'll have something supporting the drywall (not really an issue for this small area.... but it will actually support the fitting with the ears)

 

[Richard]

Waiting on wife so grabbed a couple pictures.

Hole in shower where it goes
Toilet area that I'm working behind
Temporary parts to size things and see if the idea is going to work
Wood removed to see the cuts












My goal is to fit things and mount the ears to the wood...."finalize" those fittings and install the base for the hand held. Meanwhile, I'll have the copper parts fitted together, prepped, fluxed BUT not yet soldered.... so I can wiggle things and once everything seems to fit (and I already have the pipe correctly placed and the base mounted) I'll solder all the fittings.

At least that's my current game plan.

 

[KennyG]

Looks like you've got a good plan. It's amazing how supposedly qualified people can mess things up.

My story: I had a property I rehabbed in Chicago and, of course had to use a very expensive union plumber. I bought the Kohler fittings, etc and had them installed. After a few years the tub spout diverter failed and, when I got a replacement, noticed the original was different and actually didn't match the other fittings. Turns out, when the plumber roughed in the piping he left the tub supply short. Because the slip on spout wouldn't work, he found an oddball one that would slip on a short pipe. I couldn't extend the pipe with a union because the spout wouldn't fit over it. So I had to fabricate an internal union by building up solder on a pipe so it would fit inside. It took several tries but finally worked out.

 

[jaxs]

I've overseen thousands of residential and commercial locations over the years and plumbers as a whole are an embarrassment to humanity.

 

[LouNY]

Looks like you have it under control,
I still have some copper laying in my rack in the basement but I am switching over to mostly pex the last couple of years,
and even some of the shark bite fittings this last one.

 

[RoyKing]

Look at using pex pipe to fix it, they make a slip on connector to the copper, so no soldering in the walls.

 

[kenmac]

Not sure about every state. But here, to work in the plumbing trade legally, you must at least hold a journeyman's plumbing card issued by the state
A master plumber is responsible for the work a Journeyman performs.

You must have at least two years as an plumber apprentice to be able to sit for state journeyman's exam

To qualify to sit for a master plumber exam. you must work another year as a journeyman for a total of three years experience in the trade

So, by that time, a plumber should have an idea of how to perform the work of the trade correctly.

It doesn't mean that you will get quality work, but it's better than Hiring someone standing on the corner with a I work for food sign.
And if any issues arise, You have the option of reporting substandard work the state plumbing board for an investigation

 

[Frankenkubota]

Has nothing to do with your problem but......I owned a coffee shop that had copper everywhere. I decided to move the kitchen, in a 100 year old building, mistake. I was on the ground floor with a tenate above and below.

Long story short, it's 3am Sunday morning. I had been at it since 7 pm closing the previous nite. I had a horizontal copper pipe that needed a right angle sweated on, no big deal except. I could not get the water out of the pipe. All the valves were closed etc etc. I could not get the pipe to stop draining!

The coffee shop opened at 6am so i had 3 hours. A coffee shop with no water is not good. In a panic, i called my brother. Receiving a call at 3 am is never good but he gave me a pretty good tip.

He suggested jamming some white bread in the pipe to stop the drain. He said, use the cheapest Wonder bread kinda thing i had so it would disintegrate under pressure.

It worked. Hate plumbing.

 

[Richard]

So I got the copper parts last night that I think will take care of my needs. Being "one of those people" who always tries to have a plan B, I also bought a 5' stick (couldn't find any shorter) of RED Pex. I was initially presuming red would be for hot and blue for cold....then looked at the pipe and they both seem to have similar rating so then realized it's probably just to make it an easy visual as you follow the path of the supply you can differentiate between hot/cold lines. (might have prevented my toilet from being plumbed with hot water, which I had to fix a couple years ago)

Anyway... got the stick of PEX. Got what I THINK is a Shark Bite union. I'm going to make a statement but it's actually a question to see if I understand PEX correctly (I've never used it and in fact....never even held it in my hands until last night)

I think I shorted myself on a part. Forgetting all about the copper fittings I bought, I bought a single PEX union. I was thinking (and still am) that I can insert the copper supply line into the union and put the plastic pex on the outlet side and now, I have some wiggle room for my 90 degree with ears that the nipple mounts into.

Except...

I think I should have bought a second union. One to convert from supply copper to pex… then my tubing, then another union to convert from the tubing back to the copper, hard mounted fitting.

Sound correct or am I missing something? (I don't yet KNOW that I can go from copper into the pex union, I'm suspecting I can because of how it's titled on the package....something like "Copper/pex/something other" if I recall my quick scan of it last night.

Won't get time to look at it until later today. If I DO need a second union, then I've got to make a road trip 15 miles back into town.

Love it when that happens.

 

[B7510HSD]

So I got the copper parts last night that I think will take care of my needs. Being "one of those people" who always tries to have a plan B, I also bought a 5' stick (couldn't find any shorter) of RED Pex. I was initially presuming red would be for hot and blue for cold....then looked at the pipe and they both seem to have similar rating so then realized it's probably just to make it an easy visual as you follow the path of the supply you can differentiate between hot/cold lines. (might have prevented my toilet from being plumbed with hot water, which I had to fix a couple years ago)

Anyway... got the stick of PEX. Got what I THINK is a Shark Bite union. I'm going to make a statement but it's actually a question to see if I understand PEX correctly (I've never used it and in fact....never even held it in my hands until last night)

I think I shorted myself on a part. Forgetting all about the copper fittings I bought, I bought a single PEX union. I was thinking (and still am) that I can insert the copper supply line into the union and put the plastic pex on the outlet side and now, I have some wiggle room for my 90 degree with ears that the nipple mounts into.

Except...

I think I should have bought a second union. One to convert from supply copper to pex… then my tubing, then another union to convert from the tubing back to the copper, hard mounted fitting.

Sound correct or am I missing something? (I don't yet KNOW that I can go from copper into the pex union, I'm suspecting I can because of how it's titled on the package....something like "Copper/pex/something other" if I recall my quick scan of it last night.

Won't get time to look at it until later today. If I DO need a second union, then I've got to make a road trip 15 miles back into town.

Love it when that happens.

Well if you are going to put Pex in place of a piece of copper you would need 2 connectors one for each end so I would say yes you need 1 more!

 

[Richard]

Quasi Update:

I'm not done yet...can't get the (shower side) wall sconce as flat on the wall as I want....and darn work is getting in the way so it's sitting there.

None the less, looks like with a couple elbows and a street fitting I can go from the copper supply side to the sconce side. Looks like I don't have room for two PEX fittings and some tubing. It will make it very impractical if not impossible (at least for my skills)

Turns out I DID get two fittings!!! Got a straight and a 90 under the logic of "what if I need it??" I can always take them back! So bought them and doesn't look like I'll be able to use them so wife returned those yesterday and of course, kept the cash.

Right now everything is fitted (not soldered) but I need to adjust something to change the angle the nipple protrudes from the wall so the base can fit more square. I've managed to take (let's call it) a 1/4" gap and narrowed it down to probably less than a 1/16" but it still looks a bit cockeyed when you look at it. So the wife unscrewed it a turn or three and said how about THIS?????

Well.... it was floppy and not snug at all so that's not going to work. I think I'll end up having to take the block of 2x4 that the ears are screwed into and either sand it or take it to the table saw and slightly change the angle that is on the face in the hopes changing the angle will help persuade the fittings to change their angle to a more desired angle.

Truth be told.... had the plumber did this right and the current "angle" was there, we'd simply moan about the work he did. Since we're doing it, we try to get it "right" since we don't care how long it takes (already have two other full baths so this shower isn't needed)

One reason I didn't want to use the PEX if I didn't have to was the smaller interior diameter. I didn't want that to constrict the water flow.

I'm on a well.... the well is over 100 gallons/minute. I'm on septic. What water we pull out of the ground, we put back into the ground! I want all of my showers to be as free flowing as they can be. To the point that the basement shower..... I yanked out ALL the 1/2" copper (that I formerly installed) going to it and replaced it all with 3/4" copper.... and then spent way too much money on buying shower valves that were also 3/4" valves. So I'm 3/4" hot and cold supply to the shower, 3/4" at the mixers all the way to the heads.

When I was buying the parts, the sales gal laughed and asked if I was building a car wash.

I'm here to tell you though.... jump in that shower and you will immediately fall in love with it!!! Large shower head, 3 body sprays and a hand held. Turn them all on at your own peril!! You'll smile for a week.

 

[Alien]

I am surprised you use solder. All plumbers I know here use silver solder. Stronger I guess.

 

[radios1]

Quasi Update:

.

. the problem is, you'll starve the other faucets, that's the reason that the main supply is 3/4" and the faucets etc. coming off that are 1/2".. or maybe you have 1" supply lines or larger?.. there's nothing like being in a shower, and someone uses a faucet or whatever, and all of a sudden, you get cold or hot water in the shower!!.. likewise, if someone is using that shower, other faucets will be very low volume.. your taps need to be a smaller diameter than the feed to prevent that!..