MX6000 Add on Remotes - Float Options?

[BackRoad]

MX6000 ROPS, FEL with 3rd function for grapple already installed.

Working with Messick's to add (3) "Kubota factory" rear remotes - which is stretching my very basic knowledge of hydraulics in spite of having researched lots of threads on the subject.

Plan is to use (2) rear remotes for TnT (on order from Brian at FitRite) for boxblade, backblade and rake.

The third rear remote is planned for implements with cylinders, such as backblade angle cylinder, adjusting traveling disc harrow and traveling cultipacker.

Suspect I can do it cheaper with after market parts and DIY, but desire is to keep it Kubota branded...and I am sure my install would not match what Messick's can do.

Their receipt of a remote valve with Float seems to be delayed from the factory.

I've requested (1) remote with Float for the top link as a minimum...although based on reading lots of threads, there has been discussion that (2) with Float might be better - but not sure how or when a 2nd with Float would be used...or even if really needed!

Question:
Is having float on a 2nd remote of meaningful value - sufficient enough to warrant pushing Messick's to provide a 2nd valve with Float?


There are some knowledgeable members on TBN - so kindly seeking more experienced wisdom...

- Terry

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Depending on circumstances, but the reason for having 2 float featured valves is so that you don't need to be switching hoses around when the need comes up for either the top link or side link requirement should arise. There is never a circumstance that I am aware of where you would need both in float at the same time. So a person can get by with one valve having the feature, but very convenient to have both of them with the float feature.

As far as the side link, perfect example is final smoothing of a road. You want the implement to follow the contour of the ground, not the tractor. Going around a corner where if not perfectly flat, you will either dig in or leave a pile of material. Put the side link in float mode and the implement flows with the shape of the surface, not rigid with the tractor. I have been told that this works very good with a snow blower also.

Do you need this option, absolutely not. Many people do fine without it, but it sure can make life good when that certain situation comes up.

 

[BackRoad]

Thanks Brian for the quick response!

Debating how hard to push the folks at Messick's to try finding a 2nd valve with Float...

 

[RickB]

Typically Kubota sells the lever/cable control and couplers for a particular remote valve position separately from the valve slice, ie to install a first remote valve one must order the first position lever kit and a valve slice. I suspect it would be very little trouble to specify a valve slice with float for any or all of the three positions you are installing.
I may be wrong, I don't have access to the wholegoods price book here at home to be able to check my comments against components listed for your MX.

 

[BackRoad]

Thanks Rick, the more I read, the more confused it gets!

Lots of options to consider.

Float vs detent, 2 way valves vs 1 way valves, configuration of the open center system to minimize heat build up...

I have designed and implemented million dollar IT solutions, but not knowledgeable about important stuff like tractor hydraulics!

Not convinced yet on what final remote configuration provides the most flexibility based on expected use...

It's sufficiently expensive that I want to do it right the first time!

 

[RickB]

So I was able to access the price book. There are two valve options for MX6000 tractors. The double acting valve without float or detents is a simple self centering (non-detented) valve capable of operating a double acting cylinder can be installed in positions 1, 2 and 3.
The double acting valve with a detented float position is only for use in position 2. This valve is self centering from the raise or lower position and is capable of operating a double acting cylinder. It is specifically mentioned the detented float valve is not for use in position 1 and 3, probably due to the limitations of the 1st and 3rd remote levers travel capabilities. The limitations on valves with float are disappointing.
There are no single acting valves offered. Your concerns about optimization of the open center flow are a needless complication, the valves are designed to handle the full pump flow output indefinitely without heating. Continuous use of hydraulic motors or the use of restricting valves in functions connected to a remote valve may prompt further discussion.

 

[K5lwq]

You have been giving great advice. The only thing I will add is you can have float on any of your remotes after the fact, just a different way to get the same results.

On my Branson, float was not an option on any of the remotes. Probably due to how tight everything is. So I added two electric solenoid valves teed into each remote port to get float on both of my remotes. Flip a switch and I have float. Turn off, no float. Pretty simple.

 

[BackRoad]

Rick, during initial discussions that started back in September, there was reference of only having one remote with Float on the MX6000, although I couldn't determine if it was technical or just based on parts available on hand at the time.

Your post is the first substantive confirmation...and a considerable help to move forward in finalizing configuration for the remotes.

Greatly appreciate your time investigating with data and fact on the options available.

So now, if the Messick's / Kubota supply chain can just find the last missing valve with Float...we can get on with it!!!

Hugely helpful, and Thank You!

Terry

 

[BackRoad]

K5lwq, thanks for mentioning that add on float option.

Trying to gain more understanding of the logic on how that works:

On the FEL, float allows the bucket to follow the ground contour.

I am guessing it somehow removes push or pull forces on the boom cylinders...allowing them to move in or out as needed - like putting it into a neutral state? (Again, that is a question based on fuzzy logic.)

Do you know how adding the solenoid works to add float in a hydraulic path for a valve that is standard return to center?

At a summary level, what does it do?

(And by chance, do you recall what the component is called, or maybe a P/N). I would like to investigate once I get the initial install complete if I can use it, and would like to understand it better and have it for reference in the future.

 

[K5lwq]

It is rather simple to understand. All float does is allow fluid from one side of the cylinder to pass to the other. On your loader valve, when you push the handle all the way forward, the valve always fluid to flow from port A to port B of that spool. This is internal in the valve.

The same thing would happen if you just put a hose from one end of the cylinder to the other end. Then fluid could move from one side of the cylinder to the other.

That is all the valves I added do. I used electric because of the cab but just a manual hydraulic shut off valve in between the two ports of the same spool would work. Close the valve and the cylinder can be controlled with the remote valve. Open the manual valve and the cylinder can float. You just have to remember to close the valve before trying to adjust the cylinder with the remote valve.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

It is rather simple to understand. All float does is allow fluid from one side of the cylinder to pass to the other. On your loader valve, when you push the handle all the way forward, the valve always fluid to flow from port A to port B of that spool. This is internal in the valve.

The same thing would happen if you just put a hose from one end of the cylinder to the other end. Then fluid could move from one side of the cylinder to the other.

That is all the valves I added do. I used electric because of the cab but just a manual hydraulic shut off valve in between the two ports of the same spool would work. Close the valve and the cylinder can be controlled with the remote valve. Open the manual valve and the cylinder can float. You just have to remember to close the valve before trying to adjust the cylinder with the remote valve.

Hope that makes sense.

Based on how I understand what you have done to get float, to get the full stroke in float mode both directions, you would have to have the rod fully retracted to gain the full capabilities of the float feature. If the rod is extended any amount, this limits how far the rod can retract.

You need to have the system connected to the tank also to be able to open the valve in any position and have full capability of the said float feature.

Been there, done that for a guy with an LS tractor.

The sad part of this is that Kubota somehow changed things around where only a single float featured valve in the #2 slot will work. I had a previous customer with an MX5200 that had #2 & #3 valves with the float feature. Maybe the dealer just installed what the customer asked for, not what Kubota said could be done. :confused3:

For the OP, good luck. :thumbsup:

 

[RickB]

The sad part of this is that Kubota somehow changed things around where only a single float featured valve in the #2 slot will work. I had a previous customer with an MX5200 that had #2 & #3 valves with the float feature. Maybe the dealer just installed what the customer asked for, not what Kubota said could be done. :confused3:

For the OP, good luck. :thumbsup:

It is sad, and it may well be unnecessary. I'd love to have access to an MX, a couple float style valve slices and an afternoon to mix and match. My gut tells me three valves with float can be made to work but I'm not going to advocate somebody spending the extra cash and prove me wrong. Probably the worst that would happen is the lever wouldn't move far enough to enable the float function.

 

[K5lwq]

Brian,

It has worked great all summer for my ditch bank flail. No issues whatsoever and the head follows the ground nicely.

I do understand what you are saying but I personally do not ever have a need to go into float with a cylinder fully extended. Some people may and yes that would present a issue. Depending on where I tied back to tank, I would have the opportunity for air to be introduced into the system.

 

[K5lwq]

It is sad, and it may well be unnecessary. I'd love to have access to an MX, a couple float style valve slices and an afternoon to mix and match. My gut tells me three valves with float can be made to work but I'm not going to advocate somebody spending the extra cash and prove me wrong. Probably the worst that would happen is the lever wouldn't move far enough to enable the float function.

I agree. On my Branson 4815C the issue would be the lever. There is not a lot of room for anything on this tractor. If it had the float feature, I would not have had the room to add my position control stop. There was not any room for error fabricating the slide. :confused3:

 

[BackRoad]

Very helpful discussion...take away is making sure to use accurate terms for the double acting valves and the double acting valves with float.

Having only 1 remote with Float may be less than ideal - but way better than turn buckles, and not a show stopper!

Plan of action:
1. Check the MX with respect to lever travel, specifically slot 2 compared to 1 and 3.

Assuming the footprint is the same for each of the valve slices, I can increase lever travel by metal fabricating with my 4 inch grinder!!!

2. Investigate with the parts/service team a bit more regarding their experience adding a second valve slice with Float on an MX6000, along the line mentioned by Brian with the previous customer with the MX5200 ... "Has something changed?"...

3. I "think" I captured the logic on how adding the solenoid after the fact works...still turning that around in my head.

Always amazed how things become clearer as you start gathering and building related pieces of information together.

Thank you Gentlemen!

 

[BackRoad]

Looked more closely at the MX.

Guessing the photo reflects where the levers for the new remotes will go.

The existing 3PH lever is marked on the photo.

Not sure how Kubota numbers the other open slots.

The objective is to determine if slot length is the only thing preventing (2) valves with Float to be installed?

The slot marked 2 on the photo is the middle slot. Rick mentioned this was the slot Kubota indicated to use for the valve with Float.

The slot marked 3 on the photo looks to be about 3/4 of an inch shorter than 2.

It appears to be easily extended with very minimal effort...to make it the same length as slot 2...tagged with a yellow mark in the photo.

At any rate, today I asked the gentleman I'm working with at Messick's to kindly order in (2) valves with Float.

Full speed ahead into the fog!

 

[RickB]

Please let us know how this works out.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Looked more closely at the MX.

Guessing the photo reflects where the levers for the new remotes will go.

The existing 3PH lever is marked on the photo.

Not sure how Kubota numbers the other open slots.

The objective is to determine if slot length is the only thing preventing (2) valves with Float to be installed?

The slot marked 2 on the photo is the middle slot. Rick mentioned this was the slot Kubota indicated to use for the valve with Float.

The slot marked 3 on the photo looks to be about 3/4 of an inch shorter than 2.

It appears to be easily extended with very minimal effort...to make it the same length as slot 2...tagged with a yellow mark in the photo.

At any rate, today I asked the gentleman I'm working with at Messick's to kindly order in (2) valves with Float.

Full speed ahead into the fog!View attachment 678614

I believe that the slot you have marked as #1 is for the optional draft control.

The 3rd lever should be in line so that there are 3 levers side by side similar to what I have pictured.

It looks like either the PTO button position has been changed or I have this picture labeled wrong. :confused3:

 

[BackRoad]

Follow up from Messick's...

Only (1) remote valve with Float is technically supported based on detailed investigation by their shop guys and hydraulics pros...from a "factory install" perspective.

The constraint is the size of the Float valve slice which limits the single instance.

And they confirmed as RickB mentioned about slot 2 as the location.

So, I capitulated...pulling the trigger on (3) remotes, only 1 with float.

Tractor goes on the operating table Monday morning. As mentioned earlier, I might be able to pull off the surgery...but absolutely sure it would be less than what they will do.

I have a glass half full outlook, so 3 Remotes, and TnT with only 1 float will be light-years ahead of the current no remotes and "turnbuckle twist"!

Brian, the MX6000 has the PTO switch moved up on the right fender moulded into the grab bar, so no longer mounted down by the lever plate.

Agree with your comment, believing the longer open slot labeled "1" on the original photo is for draft.

And should Santa be in a Christmas mood...I'll be ready for the Fit Rite TnT magic by end of next week!

 

[RickB]

Interesting. We have an MX waiting for a PDI slot that includes 2 remotes. I'll be sure to check the available room around the valve stack during the install. Apparently the clearance issue concerns the detent housing. The rest of the valve slice occupies the same space whether with or without float.