How long before Compact Diesels are obsolete?

[Diggin It]

I don't think size is that big an issue (pun intended). We already have small sized standby and portable generators that can put out significant power using gasoline, diesel, LP or NG. How much power would be needed to run electric motors? PowerTrac already seems to be doing it on a smaller scale. Can electric motors run hydraulic pumps?

Combustion to electric to hydraulic, or some combination of that with the goal of substantially reducing the size/HP of the combustion engine without going full battery. What kind of loss is there in each conversion though?

 

[Diggin It]

We also have to remember that more electric motors and other devices means more copper for windings and the copper supply is not unlimited. It can be recycled effectively, but that requires existing devices be scrapped for salvage.

What can replace copper in coil windings?

 

[3Ts]

We also have to remember that more electric motors and other devices means more copper for windings and the copper supply is not unlimited. It can be recycled effectively, but that requires existing devices be scrapped for salvage.

What can replace copper in coil windings?[/QUOTE]

This is a really interesting question and something to watch for. There are better electrical conductors than copper, copper is used because of cost. The cost vs application is what determines the materials used. Steel conductors are used in the high tension power distribution lines. I see the development of conductors as being similar to the discovery of the transistor and the development of battery technology over the last several years. I expect to start seeing different materials to start showing up in the coming years, but I have no idea what it will be.

 

[Mat4644]

The electric lawn tractors of the 70s weren't that good. Notice that in promotional videos they are always clipping grass that's only grown 1/2 inch. Taller grass the batteries didn't last long. Plus you had to watch overheating blade motors in high load conditions. That's why they didn't last in the marketplace.

In the future there will still be gears and transmissions needed to keep motors in optimal torque and efficiency ranges. With all the technology these will not be the simple to work on low cost devices predicted in the original post. They will not be silent and will have a characteristic whine.

 

[dougtrr2]

You could make very similar argument that everyone should want to be driving small efficient commuter cars. But I don't see that marked flooded with choices or cars either.

Doug in SW IA

 

[Hay Dude]

California has rolling blackouts now...more battery powered vehicles will only make that worse when they mandate electric vehicles.

Nonsense...cover a million hectares of California (with the exception of Hollywood and Malibu) with solar panels and put windmills atop the Sierra Nevadas and they can make enough power! :laughing:

 

[Hay Dude]

The electric lawn tractors of the 70s weren't that good. Notice that in promotional videos they are always clipping grass that's only grown 1/2 inch. Taller grass the batteries didn't last long. Plus you had to watch overheating blade motors in high load conditions. That's why they didn't last in the marketplace.

In the future there will still be gears and transmissions needed to keep motors in optimal torque and efficiency ranges. With all the technology these will not be the simple to work on low cost devices predicted in the original post. They will not be silent and will have a characteristic whine.

It was pretty good for its time. I remember my pop kept his sears suburban gas tractor as a backup though.....just in case.
No telling what it cost to charge the batteries. I was too young to understand all the kw/hr stuff.

 

[Mat4644]

Nobody wants to ride an electric Harley that sounds like your electric razor. Nobody wants to ride a tractor through the woods that sounds like a Waring Blender. I suggest the electric tractor of the future have a programmable sound system under the hood. On a Green month you could start with a Waterloo Boy then to 30s Johnny Poppers then to the massive 720 2 cylinder. Once finished with vintage sounds move on to diesels and turbo diesels. Next month could perhaps be Red and vintage IH engines. We don't want to become a whiney buzzy tractor nation.

Also perhaps a scent generator could be utilized that puts a faint whiff of oil, grease and diesel in the air would be appropriate. That way we could feel normal driving around with our man bun and manicured toenails.

 

[fried1765]

Let me know if this is the wrong place to put this, but IMHO, the advantages of electric powered tractors in the smaller sizes (under, say, 100hp) will be so massive that even though cars are ahead in the development, new small electric tractors will begin taking over the market somewhere around 2025, and by 2030, they will have made diesels in the under 60 hp class obsolete, for the following reasons:
1. Diesel engines and the various transmissions are extremely expensive to design and produce compared to electric drive trains.
2. The limitation on continuous use of electric tractors - probably 4 hours or so at a clip before requiring recharge, on the lower priced machines won't be a problem to most small tractor owners. For those for whom it is a problem, more batteries can be put in the tractor.
3. No more lugging and pouring cans of diesel is not a nothing-burger.
4. The problem of battery weight in cars is an advantage in most tractors, as it can increase both traction and stability if properly situated.
5. Lower maintenance costs and full control of speed without many gallons of hydro oil for locomotion.
6. In tractors with loaders, portable supplemental battery packs could potentially charged while the tractor is working, and added to the loader when using PTO implements, or carried on the 3pt. when doing loader work.
7. CUTs are not really screamingly noisy but the electric tractors' quiet will be appreciated.
8. Prices will be competitive with diesels by 2025 and will be significantly less expensive than diesels by 2030.
9. An electric tractor charged from home solar or wind will appeal to the "independent" types, like most of us here.
10. If made properly, repairs to an Electric Tractor should be much easier and require much less technical knowledge than compact diesels.

Disclaimer: I am invested in electric vehicles, electric tractors and solar panel makers.

Worldwide, much of the electric power used to charge these battery powered tractors (and primarily cars) will be produced by coal fired plants, with the associated power distribution networks requiring massive upgrades.
There is no FREE LUNCH!

 

[Mat4644]

It was pretty good for its time. I remember my pop kept his sears suburban gas tractor as a backup though.....just in case.
No telling what it cost to charge the batteries. I was too young to understand all the kw/hr stuff.

From what I remember they took readily available golf cart batteries. Somewhat expensive but reasonable. I remember my Aunt with the small riding version with the steering wheel up front I had to cut the lawn with a gas mower whenever it got a little high.

 

[RalphVa]

Let me know if this is the wrong place to put this, but IMHO, the advantages of electric powered tractors in the smaller sizes (under, say, 100hp) will be so massive that even though cars are ahead in the development, new small electric tractors will begin taking over the market somewhere around 2025, and by 2030, they will have made diesels in the under 60 hp class obsolete, for the following reasons:
1. Diesel engines and the various transmissions are extremely expensive to design and produce compared to electric drive trains.
2. The limitation on continuous use of electric tractors - probably 4 hours or so at a clip before requiring recharge, on the lower priced machines won't be a problem to most small tractor owners. For those for whom it is a problem, more batteries can be put in the tractor.
3. No more lugging and pouring cans of diesel is not a nothing-burger.
4. The problem of battery weight in cars is an advantage in most tractors, as it can increase both traction and stability if properly situated.
5. Lower maintenance costs and full control of speed without many gallons of hydro oil for locomotion.
6. In tractors with loaders, portable supplemental battery packs could potentially charged while the tractor is working, and added to the loader when using PTO implements, or carried on the 3pt. when doing loader work.
7. CUTs are not really screamingly noisy but the electric tractors' quiet will be appreciated.
8. Prices will be competitive with diesels by 2025 and will be significantly less expensive than diesels by 2030.
9. An electric tractor charged from home solar or wind will appeal to the "independent" types, like most of us here.
10. If made properly, repairs to an Electric Tractor should be much easier and require much less technical knowledge than compact diesels.

Disclaimer: I am invested in electric vehicles, electric tractors and solar panel makers.

I agree. Electric tractors make the most sense. Be a bunch quieter, too.

Would love to have one, as my solar panels are on the roof of the carriage house where the tractor is parked. In most cases, the tractor's "fuel" will cost me nothing.

Will need a bunch more panels and batteries to eliminate my diesel generator though.

Ralph

 

[sea2summit]

I agree. Electric tractors make the most sense. Be a bunch quieter, too.

Would love to have one, as my solar panels are on the roof of the carriage house where the tractor is parked. In most cases, the tractor's "fuel" will cost me nothing.

Will need a bunch more panels and batteries to eliminate my diesel generator though.

Ralph

If they did the batteries right there’s no reason your tractor batteries couldn’t power your house for short periods of time, use the tractor in place of traditional battery banks.

 

[ovrszd]

In regards to noise. Modern diesel engines are very quiet. On a large farm tractor or construction equipment the engine is rarely heard.

 

[Hay Dude]

In regards to noise. Modern diesel engines are very quiet. On a large farm tractor or construction equipment the engine is rarely heard.

Indeed they are.
I took on a hay farm parcel and the owner said he hired me because my tractors are much quieter than the previous farmers tractors. One time I cut his property, he called me and asked me when did you cut? I told him I cut his property today. He said he couldnt believe he could not hear my tractor mowing his fields while he was in his house watching TV.
My 20 RAM is about the same noise as my 80’s gas powered trucks.

 

[CobyRupert]

What will spur electric vehicles is 2 way (buy & sell) demand metering and capitalism. Where the price you buy or sell electricity changes hour to hour and is determined by the supply and demand, not some averaged centralized distribution system monopoly pricing that is disconnected from your usage patterns.
Is it fair my neighbor pays the same price for electricity as me when he uses it at peak hours when the utility has to buy it at 20 cents and I use it when it costs them 5 cents?

That is:
When we all own electric storage capacity (vehicles and tractors) we can (through the apps on our phone) buy and sell that power according to the 24 hour “market” and what we expect to use, or expect the market to do, in the upcoming days.

 

[PILOON]

I was involved with electric fork lift industry some 30 years ago.
You needed a crane to swap batteries and 3 batteries to get 24 hrs service.
OK, granted that was lead acid technology in those days and battery technology has advanced since then but I don't think Tesla technology is about the hit the CUT market.

Modern electric vehicle propulsion relies on regeneration when coasting as a portion of charging. Not many tractors coast downhill and make frequent stops.
Heated cabs and air conditioning would also shorten battery run time.
Add the fact that cold weather affects most batteries.
Granted tractors generally get much more warm weather usage than cold.

While lesser maintenance is considered a plus factor it is negated by the high cost of battery replacement as most seem to have about a 5 year expected life.

Granted weight is considered an asset for a traction but is there not a limit.

 

[MossRoad]

I don't think size is that big an issue (pun intended). We already have small sized standby and portable generators that can put out significant power using gasoline, diesel, LP or NG. How much power would be needed to run electric motors? PowerTrac already seems to be doing it on a smaller scale. Can electric motors run hydraulic pumps?

Combustion to electric to hydraulic, or some combination of that with the goal of substantially reducing the size/HP of the combustion engine without going full battery. What kind of loss is there in each conversion though?

What? Where?

 

[MossRoad]

I'd like you all to meet Clayton Brander, and read about his story involving trying to get a replacement battery for an only 7 year old Nissan Leaf. He bought it used in 2017, and the dealer assured him a replacement battery would be about $5000. Bawhahahahaha!!!! I feel sorry for this guy, but grateful that he is sharing his story. $15,000 for a new battery!

Read more details in the link below. Then consider how long you think that battery in your electric tractor will last, how much it will cost to replace, return on investment, etc....

Owner of all-electric Nissan Leaf frustrated by difficulty of getting new battery | CBC News

 

[Snobdds]

The problem with electricity is electron storage. To store the equivalent of 5 gallons of diesel in a battery would require a very large battery. Technology has not given us a dense enough place to store electrons in a usable way. That is why the race is one to find a better battery. I don't know if we will get there with the available resources that is cheap enough for the masses. Electric has to not only make sense from a durational stand point, it has to make sense in a manufacturing and economic standpoint.

As others have said, we don't have the electrical capacity to generate enough electricity to charge all those batteries. It would require coal and nuclear and they have been framed as dirty electricity. So where does the raw power come from? Then the power distribution over the grid is another problem. Do we want to see huge transfer stations and huge power lines going all over the place?

Everyone is still throwing stuff on a wall to see what sticks in terms of battery tech and power generation. We have a want for battery based stuff, but the road is still being surveyed, not even built yet.

 

[Macinnis]

I'd like you all to meet Clayton Brander, and read about his story involving trying to get a replacement battery for an only 7 year old Nissan Leaf. He bought it used in 2017, and the dealer assured him a replacement battery would be about $5000. Bawhahahahaha!!!! I feel sorry for this guy, but grateful that he is sharing his story. $15,000 for a new battery!

Read more details in the link below. Then consider how long you think that battery in your electric tractor will last, how much it will cost to replace, return on investment, etc....

Owner of all-electric Nissan Leaf frustrated by difficulty of getting new battery | CBC News

Yup, a guy at my work spent about 7k for new batteries for his little hybrid. People forget that batteries don’t last forever. Electric cars are a novel concept...but they still need to be recharged by the horrid coal industry...I fail to see the advantage (especially once you take the battery replacement into account). It sounds good on paper, probably makes a lot of people feel good about driving those vehicles, but I wonder what the overall gain is?