DK45SC Starting problems

   / DK45SC Starting problems #1  

rd_macgregor

Veteran Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,875
Location
Prince Edward Island, Canada
Tractor
Kioti DK45SC, Kubota B2650
Last winter my 2006 DK45SC with about 1500 hrs started to get stubborn about starting. It had always before started immediately on cranking, so this was an unpleasant surprise. I thought it might be old/weak glow plugs, since using the block heater seemed to help. The problem went away on its own last spring...until a couple of weeks ago, when the same thing started (or not!!) again. Now, this is still fairly warm weather so I doubt the issue is the glow plugs. It will crank over enthusiastically, but doesn't even cough or sputter. Then, after a few tries, it sometimes will fire right up....and run great as long as I don't shut it off. I figure something, somewhere in the fuel delivery system (fuel, pump, filter, lines...) is goofy, but don't know where to start, or what is the best fit for the symptoms.
I welcome suggestions that might point me in the right direction.
Thanks.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #2  
Might be losing its prime do any of the fuel lines look wet....
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Might be losing its prime do any of the fuel lines look wet....

I'll check that. It seems to help if I pump the gizmo on the top of the fuel filter housing a couple of times, so that might make sense. If so, just replacing some fuel lines should help, right?
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #4  
Yes could be the lines or fuel filter gasket...or the hand primer pump
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #5  
What does your tractor use for shutting down?
A solenoid, is it a activate to shutdown or an activate to run?
Activate to run are usually controlled by two relays a start and a run relay which go to start and run windings.
If your shutdown solenoid is acting up it will not start.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #6  
Sure does sound like glow plug problems to me, at least I think. After you do get it started, and warmed up, if you shut it off, will it restart easily, or is it still hard to start??

I think LouNY brings up a very good point also; but I don't see why warm weather (summer) would change your symptoms if it was solenoid problems. Of course it might just be a coincidence!
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #7  
I think you should let your tractor run awhile, warm the engine fully and then shut off. Wait two minutes and restart again. If it struggles to start, it's probably not the glow plugs because you already have hot combustion chamber. Leading to the fuel system as most likely source of your starting problems.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #8  
If it is the fuel system, drain and clean your fuel tank and replace the fuel filter. Evaluate the overall integrity of your fuel lines. You may also notice some decreased performance of your tractor as you work, and this also due to fuel line issues.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems
  • Thread Starter
#10  
I think you should let your tractor run awhile, warm the engine fully and then shut off. Wait two minutes and restart again. If it struggles to start, it's probably not the glow plugs because you already have hot combustion chamber. Leading to the fuel system as most likely source of your starting problems.

Well, I tried this (though without a 2 min wait) and it didn't want to re-start...so, not the glow plugs. I think this narrows it down to the fuel system somewhere...I guess I'll just have to work through the possibilities until the problem goes away. None of the fuel hoses seemed wet on the outside, so contamination/filter, pump or solenoid/relay seem the most likely targets for attention now.
Thanks, all.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #11  
When you turn the key, do you hear the snap of the stop solenoid?
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems
  • Thread Starter
#12  
When you turn the key, do you hear the snap of the stop solenoid?

Well, I wouldn't call it a "snap"..."click" is more like it. My doubts about the solenoid being the problem concern the intermittancy; if the solenoid (or related relay) are faulty, wouldn't it fail to start, period? As it is, the engine cranks over for a while without starting, then after a few tries (with maybe a few pumps on the filter primer gizmo), it fires right up...and runs fine. If I shut it off, after it is warmed up, then try to start it again, it is back to turning over without evidence of ignition (not even a kick or cough).
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #13  
I posted the same problem on my DK55. That is why I am questioning the fuel lift pump. If a check valve is leaking, the fuel runs out of the fuel line. Cranking pumps the fuel again but takes time to get back to the injection pump. This is just a theory and no one has replied to my post yet.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #14  
Well, I wouldn't call it a "snap"..."click" is more like it. My doubts about the solenoid being the problem concern the intermittancy; if the solenoid (or related relay) are faulty, wouldn't it fail to start, period? As it is, the engine cranks over for a while without starting, then after a few tries (with maybe a few pumps on the filter primer gizmo), it fires right up...and runs fine. If I shut it off, after it is warmed up, then try to start it again, it is back to turning over without evidence of ignition (not even a kick or cough).
actually, no. I had intermittent start issues with mine. Laster for 4 months. One day it wouldnt start, i manually moved the stop rail by unbolting it. Fired right up, had to reinstall it to stop tractor. Replaced stop unit and no issues for years now. I replaced the relay first...no difference.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #15  
My DK45 has 3 wires that go to the fuel solenoid, Black, Red, and Blue. The Black wire is ground, the Red wire is 12 volts positive anytime the "ign" switch is on. The Blue wire is 12 volts positive for about 3 seconds any time the "ign" switch is turned from off to on, and is powered from one of the three relays located on the fuel tank heat shield.

The Red and Black wires form a circuit which "holds" the solenoid engaged anytime the "ign" is on. When you turn the "ign" to the off position, the circuit is killed, and the solenoid de-energizes allowing the spring loaded rack to move the injector pump pistons to the stop position. This 'Red and Black" circuit is strong enough to hold the solenoid plunger in the "On" position, but not strong enough to move the plunger into position.

When you turn the "ign" switch from the "OFF" position to the "ON" position, a timer circuit energizes a relay, which, in turn energizes the Blue wire, which, along with the Black wire forms a second circuit, which develops a much stronger magnetic field forcing the solenoid plunger into the "RUN" position. This circuit is only active for a few seconds, because it would eventually over heat.

When you say "after a few tries, it fires right up"; Are you turning the "ign" switch "OFF" between tries?? Or are you just going between "start" and "on" with each try?? If you never turn the switch to the "OFF" position between "tries", then your symptoms have me baffled!

If you ARE turning the ign switch OFF between tries, then I would feel confident that your 'gremlin' is an intermittent problem in the "Blue and Black" circuit. From what I have gleaned from reading posts over the years, the overwhelming majority of the times it has been the Relay. A relay is just a set of switch contacts that is operated by an electromagnet. The contacts absolutely can 'sometimes' make the connection, and 'sometimes' NOT make the connection.

It should not be any problem tracing out the circuit using nothing but a test light, or voltmeter.

When (IF) you have the tractor running again, try shutting it off using the lever located just above the "stop solenoid" NOT BY USING THE IGN SWITCH...KEEP THE IGN SWITCH ON! After the engine dies, I would predict the engine will easily re-start (IF you do NOT turn the switch off). If your tractor has a manual transmission, you could also kill the engine by shifting into High range, 4th gear, at idle, then releasing the clutch while holding the brake.

Good Luck!
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #16  
My DK45 has 3 wires that go to the fuel solenoid, Black, Red, and Blue. The Black wire is ground, the Red wire is 12 volts positive anytime the "ign" switch is on. The Blue wire is 12 volts positive for about 3 seconds any time the "ign" switch is turned from off to on, and is powered from one of the three relays located on the fuel tank heat shield.

The Red and Black wires form a circuit which "holds" the solenoid engaged anytime the "ign" is on. When you turn the "ign" to the off position, the circuit is killed, and the solenoid de-energizes allowing the spring loaded rack to move the injector pump pistons to the stop position. This 'Red and Black" circuit is strong enough to hold the solenoid plunger in the "On" position, but not strong enough to move the plunger into position.

When you turn the "ign" switch from the "OFF" position to the "ON" position, a timer circuit energizes a relay, which, in turn energizes the Blue wire, which, along with the Black wire forms a second circuit, which develops a much stronger magnetic field forcing the solenoid plunger into the "RUN" position. This circuit is only active for a few seconds, because it would eventually over heat.

When you say "after a few tries, it fires right up"; Are you turning the "ign" switch "OFF" between tries?? Or are you just going between "start" and "on" with each try?? If you never turn the switch to the "OFF" position between "tries", then your symptoms have me baffled!

If you ARE turning the ign switch OFF between tries, then I would feel confident that your 'gremlin' is an intermittent problem in the "Blue and Black" circuit. From what I have gleaned from reading posts over the years, the overwhelming majority of the times it has been the Relay. A relay is just a set of switch contacts that is operated by an electromagnet. The contacts absolutely can 'sometimes' make the connection, and 'sometimes' NOT make the connection.

It should not be any problem tracing out the circuit using nothing but a test light, or voltmeter.

When (IF) you have the tractor running again, try shutting it off using the lever located just above the "stop solenoid" NOT BY USING THE IGN SWITCH...KEEP THE IGN SWITCH ON! After the engine dies, I would predict the engine will easily re-start (IF you do NOT turn the switch off). If your tractor has a manual transmission, you could also kill the engine by shifting into High range, 4th gear, at idle, then releasing the clutch while holding the brake.

Good Luck!

my 2010 model year does not have a manual lever at the stop solenoid. wish it did.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #17  
my 2010 model year does not have a manual lever at the stop solenoid. wish it did.

THAT'S what stood out to you from my 1/2 dozen paragraphs?? I do see that my last paragraph would not help anyone without a manual cutoff lever AND a hydrostatic transmission.

Actually, I was under the impression your problem had been fixed by a new solenoid, I was trying to offer rd_macgregor (and also - maybe- jimglassford) an idea on something to test. Of course, it seems like Kioti significantly changes designs 'mid-stream', so it's entirely possible my suggestion was completely irrelevant to them also. Coincidentally, the wiring diagram in the Service Manual I purchased from Kioti (at the same time I bought my DK45SC) shows a completely different circuit for the fuel solenoid than what is on my tractor!
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #18  
THAT'S what stood out to you from my 1/2 dozen paragraphs?? I do see that my last paragraph would not help anyone without a manual cutoff lever AND a hydrostatic transmission.

Actually, I was under the impression your problem had been fixed by a new solenoid, I was trying to offer rd_macgregor (and also - maybe- jimglassford) an idea on something to test. Of course, it seems like Kioti significantly changes designs 'mid-stream', so it's entirely possible my suggestion was completely irrelevant to them also. Coincidentally, the wiring diagram in the Service Manual I purchased from Kioti (at the same time I bought my DK45SC) shows a completely different circuit for the fuel solenoid than what is on my tractor!

Quite often the start coil is only energized with the starter cranking circuit and drops out with the switch to run.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems #19  
Quite often the start coil is only energized with the starter cranking circuit and drops out with the switch to run.

It would make a lot of sense to me to do that - run a circuit from the starter solenoid to the fuel solenoid; and I suppose a lot of tractors do just that.

My DK45SC is a 2008 year model, and the OP's DK45SC is a 2006 model, so I figure there is a pretty good chance they are wired the same (although, admittedly there is no guarantee), and my tractor does not use the starter's circuit at all for the fuel solenoid.
 
   / DK45SC Starting problems
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Thanks for the suggestions and speculations. My 2006 DK45 has the lever by the solenoid...I always wondered what it was for! I have a few things to try out. The past few times I've started the tractor, I've pumped the plunger on top of the fuel filter 8 or 10 times and the engine started on the first try (this may or may not be related, given how intermittent the issue has been in the past.
Finally, jimglassford, is your fuel tank below the engine, then? Mine is on top of the engine just forward of the firewall.
 

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