Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]

   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #21  
Alcohol in diesel fuel adaptives is hard on the injection pump. There are many additives that do not contain alcohol.

Many Diesel engines will have an electrical fuel preheator before the filters. There may also be a recirculating heater using engine coolant.

Storage tanks should have a drain off the very bottom for water & other accumulates and the fuel pipe should be above the bottom.

In your area there should be numerous examples on how diesel is handled in the winter. The local supplier should have more than enough information for you.

There should be fuel oil fired recirculating heaters on the market that meet all certification requirements. You may find a lot of transport trucks are so equipped. One of these would be your best option.

If the Cat gets really cold a tarp and construction heater will work very well. It’s a common procedure or used to be.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #22  
I listed the appended (re-edited) items in another thread but I think the topic of winter diesel problems deserves its own. I've had so many problems with freezing/frozen diesel that cannot for th elife of me imagine why such precautions are not standard fare (especially on the hight seas).

I am now at the stage of planning the mods of 2 fuel tanks. They will each have two glass/polycarb windows. On the top will be a smallish 1/2" tempered glass window hosting an LED light, the light will protect the glass and not touch it (using glass instead of polycarb for heat resistance). The 3/8" thick polycarb window will be on the side for inspection. I've found out that nitrile or viton sheet is about the best gasket for such panels. Since I plan to also preheat the tank fuel before start (everything will be plugged-in but powerd on only 1-1/2 hour before engines start) I'm thinking of using the LED inspection light also as a heater to get two birds with one so to speak.

The QUESTION:

The blower will have an approximately 8 gallon tank, the hosting Cat-426 has over 25 gallons (always keeping tanks full is a cold-weather must). What power of lights should each have to get the fuel from a typical -15c up to not less than 25c nor more than about 35c in 90 minutes? The lights will be enclosed with the tank glass so that maybe 50% of the emission heat will transfer even if not touching. If the fuel were water the 30 L of the 8 gl tank 30,000 ML would require that many calories per degree C i.e. 1.2 million kals or 800 kilokals per hour. The Cat would need about 3 times that, 2,400. NB. I'm not sure if this can be done with LED lights of just a few (maybe 4x8) inches in size.










==============================
1
Diesel fuel ALWAYS has water in it, only the quantity varies with the degree of refining. Summer fuel has tons of it causing rust in tanks and lines and filters. Winter grade is more refined (evaporated), it has both less water and less energy. The water however (mostly in the form of ice crystals in suspension giving the fuel a milky appearance) can cause L O T S of problems.

2
For my money an aluminum or SS tank is where it must all begin. Plastic could be OK also but it's too fragile on a backhoe which can be a violent environment. I once had the oil cooler above the oil filter ripped off by a stump, triggering the oil horn!

3
The fuel must be visible for inspection at all times. I'm going to cut a slot in my DIY stainless tank and close it off with a 1/2" thick clear polycarb plate held by a frame and screws with a fuel resistant gasket between the polycarb and the tank. I will cut a similar but round hole on top of the tank for a very bright light that makes the inside (especially the bottom) look like my mouth at the dentist even in ambient sunlight on snow!

4
the electric lift pump will be fed directly from the tank to which it will be fixed, with a protection plate defending against breakage.

5
a 2000 or+ watt heating pad between the tank and the protection plate that will be under the pad. The idea is to raise 28 gallons from -30c to +20c in an hour and keep it there thermostatically. The lift pump will feed a small shuttle tank.

6
If the main tank is not otherwise preheated then a metal return line coiled around the exhaust manifold with a thermostatically controlled selector valve to route the output into the shuttle tank when its content is cold and into the main tank when the shuttle tank temperature is 30c or more. This bit gets complicated but I'll finger something out. At lower shuttle tank temperatures the heated return would replenish the shuttle tank with the rest of replenishing coming from the main tank. In summer the heating coil around the exhaust would be inactive with just a line into the main tank. Another possibility is to use the prestone heater circuit coiled under the tank, etc.


Why the over complexity and cost ? Just use #1 winter diesel and a little IPA to absorb water . Some fuel filters will accept an electric heater and thermostat.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #23  
Why the over complexity and cost ? Just use #1 winter diesel and a little IPA to absorb water . Some fuel filters will accept an electric heater and thermostat.

Exactly. We have a 100 gallon tank that sits in the barn, it is vented and we never have issues as long as we put in the winter Power Service (usually, about enough to treat 125 gallons as the bottle treats 250 gallons and we out in about half a bottle).
The one time we had an issue it was 10F with a nasty wind and we hadn't put any Power Service in.

Aaron Z
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]
  • Thread Starter
#24  
Alcohol in diesel fuel adaptives is hard on the injection pump. There are many additives that do not contain alcohol.
Many Diesel engines will have an electrical fuel preheator before the filters. There may also be a recirculating heater using engine coolant.
Storage tanks should have a drain off the very bottom for water & other accumulates and the fuel pipe should be above the bottom.
In your area there should be numerous examples on how diesel is handled in the winter. The local supplier should have more than enough information for you.
There should be fuel oil fired recirculating heaters on the market that meet all certification requirements. You may find a lot of transport trucks are so equipped. One of these would be your best option. If the Cat gets really cold a tarp and construction heater will work very well. It痴 a common procedure or used to be.

I do have a 350,000 BTU heater and used to use it regularly, but I have just migrated BOTH engines to circulation heaters and hope to be able to park the construction 'pig' as we call them. Once the engine is running the coolant heat-exchanger seems like a very good idea given that most engines have a perfect cabin-heater circuit. The coolant heater that "I" installed on the Cummins works like a charm, the other one installed by a pro on the Cat's Perkins has to be all redone because it's cooking itself. The Cummins (now) powering the snow blower also has an electric pre-heater (NOT in the chronological sense) at he filter and I'm in fact trying to find out its cut-in temp. As far as only snow-blowing would be concerned those sessions usually go about 1 hour so fuel pre-heated to say 35c would likely remain warm throughout. Still and all, as I said, the most important precaution is fuel condition and the ability to determine that condition. I think I have totally solved THAT issue.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]
  • Thread Starter
#25  
Why the over complexity and cost ? Just use #1 winter diesel and a little IPA to absorb water . Some fuel filters will accept an electric heater and thermostat.

Admitted that some of the intermediate tank ideas are overkill (in retrospect), a feasibilty study of course cannot by definition be too complex because it's purpose is to identify problems and resolve them. Except for the heating issue I have ALREADY accomplished all the cited objectives and there was nothing complicated about it. We don't have #1, the pumps have only 1 diesel but it's continuously adjusted for the seasonal temperatures so that what I get at the pump varies month to month. As far as additives I don't believe in them, if they were worth anything the oil companies would include them, here they don't. One exception being those against freezing the active agent in which is alcohol which evaporates with time.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]
  • Thread Starter
#26  
Using an LED as a heat source is a waste of time, just like debating with a bunch of guys with cold weather diesel fuel management experience.

That's why I dropped it, the LED light is now just for illumination, not for heating. And I spent part of my life on the Dew line :)
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]
  • Thread Starter
#27  
Storage tanks should have a drain off the very bottom for water & other accumulates and the fuel pipe should be above the bottom.

This one I just ran into for the umpteenth time with my heating oil tank. Looks like I'm going to subject it too to some mods. It has no stand pipe and no drain, just the plumbing fitting in the bottom on one end so I either leave the tank horizontal, tilt it toward the outlet or toward the end away from it. Last time I tilted away and this morning it was frozen up with about a glass of water that came through as a result of the blowtorch. Since right now it's tilted 'away' I'm pretty sure that the ALL the lower end is full of water in the bottom, several gallons probably now all solid ice. Next summer I'll certainly put an inspection panel and light on there too, plus a lowered drain pipe below the exit T to collect any water. And since the insurance company just told me to buy another tank because this one is 10 years old and deemed rusted out (!) I might just make a new tank out of SS and see what they say to that.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #28  
Proof of concept prototype is as done as it's going to get this year. 3/8" polycarb pieces on the iside of inspection and light windows sealed with 1/8" nitril gaskets and stainless screws about 1/2" on center.

3rd row of pictures @

http://trixtar.org/3/tinkerings/blower1/index.html


The LED light module is on top and has a toggle switch. Inside the inspection window the intake end of the suction hose is clearly visible but my pride really revolves around the analog thermometer inside! It over reads by 5c, no big deal. I've started shakedown runs with the blower, engine preheat is 1500 watts of the circulation type. I had thought of using a Canadian Polar Pad but the chief over there there told me I was nuts, just like some have done here, on account of it being a fire hazard. Dumped. I might coil the intake of the engine preheater (coming back from the engine) through the tank for preheat (next summer). Most ops will last less than 2 hours so preheat might be all that's required, time will tell.
a 1500 watt heater running on 12 volts would need 125 amps..
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]
  • Thread Starter
#30  
RESOLVED Re: diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]

Exactly 12 months ago I decided to haul fuel home in 5 gallon plastic cans from the service station instead of having 45 gl. drums filled by the heating oil supplier (as I said somewhere else, here in Canada the two products are EXACTLY the same except for coloring). It so happens that I haven't had a single water issue since. I figure that my drums were taking on water via one of the plugs or where the pump is screwed in. Anyway, another reason for the switch to cans was that at 76 I can't really toss drums around like I used to, not even empty, so I'll stay with the new protocol, once in a while I take 6 empty cans in the back of the pickup and get them filled. End of story.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #31  
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #32  
I purchase diesel in 5gal cans and my tractor holds 11gal. The tractor is in an unheated garage (Canada). I just bought some Power Service White with the intention of treating my fuel this winter but the bottle says it must be used once open - cannot be stored for later use.

Any opinions or comments on this?

Thanks, Peter.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #33  
I purchase diesel in 5gal cans and my tractor holds 11gal. The tractor is in an unheated garage (Canada). I just bought some Power Service White with the intention of treating my fuel this winter but the bottle says it must be used once open - cannot be stored for later use.

Any opinions or comments on this?

Thanks, Peter.
I buy diesel in 5 gallon cans too, tractor only holds 3.5. I buy the small bottle (16 oz. I think). I treat the fuel as I buy it and keep the Power Service where it is above freezing. That's all I've noticed in the directions that stood out to me, don't store below freezing. I haven't yet had an issue doing this (I'm starting winter #2 with a diesel). Maybe the bigger bottles are labeled differently ?
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #34  
See photo. Under the danger symbol it says "use entire contents on opening" and on the back it states once open, the bottle cannot be resealed and will leak. They are intent on making sure you do not store an open bottle. 150 litres is about 38 US gallons. I could maybe treat 15 gallons at one time. The store did not sell smaller bottles.

Throw out most of the bottle or continue to use it? Advice? IMG_20191202_224658.jpg
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #35  
See photo. Under the danger symbol it says "use entire contents on opening" and on the back it states once open, the bottle cannot be resealed and will leak. They are intent on making sure you do not store an open bottle. 150 litres is about 38 US gallons. I could maybe treat 15 gallons at one time. The store did not sell smaller bottles.

Throw out most of the bottle or continue to use it? Advice?View attachment 631003
I'd just make sure I stored it upright so it didnt leak. Pretty sure I only used half of my bottle at a time (much bigger bottle & diesel tank).
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #36  
This is from the faqs on the power service website

WILL PRODUCT LEAK OUT OF A PARTIALLY USED CONTAINER?

Power Service diesel additives packaged in 16-ounce, 32-ounce, 80-ounce and 1-gallon containers are packaged as single-use containers with a tamper-evident seal. Once the seal has been broken, the container cannot be resealed and product will leak if the bottle is not kept upright. The best practice is to use the container sized for your fuel tank capacity. Do not store previously opened containers in your vehicle and be sure to clean up any spills immediately.

What is the shelf-life of your products?

Indefinitely in a sealed container. Once the seal has been broken, the best practice is to use the product within 12 to 18 months.


From what it looks like that warning is there as a legal out for them so you can't sue them and they are not liable for any costs or damages that may be caused.

I only treat 5 gal at a time (I have two 5 gal containers and fill one up when its empty to have 10gal pn hand) and it would be a waste of money to only use 2 to 4 oz out of it. A side thought i has is how to dispose of whats remaining? The only proper way I can think of to dispose it is to take it to hazardous waste and possibly pay to get rid of it.

I cap mine tightly and store it where it can't fall over and leak till I need it.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #37  
I purchase diesel in 5gal cans and my tractor holds 11gal. The tractor is in an unheated garage (Canada). I just bought some Power Service White with the intention of treating my fuel this winter but the bottle says it must be used once open - cannot be stored for later use.

Any opinions or comments on this?

Thanks, Peter.

My large PS white bottle had been opened since 2008 when I bought my first diesel tractor and I finally used the last of it last year in 2018. I kept it sealed and in a heated (50F) degree area. It never failed me.

DEWFPO
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #38  
Thanks all. I did not want to foul up my fuel system using bad additive. I will store it in a heated area though. Great TBN advice again!

Snowing today so I will get some seat time tomorrow.

Enjoy.
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #39  
Wait....what?

Power Service has to be stored above freezing?

...but this is what you add to diesel so you can store and use below freezing?

Can anyone confirm?
 
   / Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread] #40  
My large PS white bottle had been opened since 2008 when I bought my first diesel tractor and I finally used the last of it last year in 2018. I kept it sealed and in a heated (50F) degree area. It never failed me.

DEWFPO

"It never failed me"

How would you know that?
We pour the stuff in and hope for the best.
There is really no way to know for sure if it really works or not.
The manufacturer says it does?
Same about STP also!
 

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