Winter diesel without headaches [Snow PUMP sub-thread]

[fitterski]

I listed the appended (re-edited) items in another thread but I think the topic of winter diesel problems deserves its own. I've had so many problems with freezing/frozen diesel that cannot for th elife of me imagine why such precautions are not standard fare (especially on the hight seas).

I am now at the stage of planning the mods of 2 fuel tanks. They will each have two glass/polycarb windows. On the top will be a smallish 1/2" tempered glass window hosting an LED light, the light will protect the glass and not touch it (using glass instead of polycarb for heat resistance). The 3/8" thick polycarb window will be on the side for inspection. I've found out that nitrile or viton sheet is about the best gasket for such panels. Since I plan to also preheat the tank fuel before start (everything will be plugged-in but powerd on only 1-1/2 hour before engines start) I'm thinking of using the LED inspection light also as a heater to get two birds with one so to speak.

The QUESTION:

The blower will have an approximately 8 gallon tank, the hosting Cat-426 has over 25 gallons (always keeping tanks full is a cold-weather must). What power of lights should each have to get the fuel from a typical -15c up to not less than 25c nor more than about 35c in 90 minutes? The lights will be enclosed with the tank glass so that maybe 50% of the emission heat will transfer even if not touching. If the fuel were water the 30 L of the 8 gl tank 30,000 ML would require that many calories per degree C i.e. 1.2 million kals or 800 kilokals per hour. The Cat would need about 3 times that, 2,400. NB. I'm not sure if this can be done with LED lights of just a few (maybe 4x8) inches in size.










==============================
1
Diesel fuel ALWAYS has water in it, only the quantity varies with the degree of refining. Summer fuel has tons of it causing rust in tanks and lines and filters. Winter grade is more refined (evaporated), it has both less water and less energy. The water however (mostly in the form of ice crystals in suspension giving the fuel a milky appearance) can cause L O T S of problems.

2
For my money an aluminum or SS tank is where it must all begin. Plastic could be OK also but it's too fragile on a backhoe which can be a violent environment. I once had the oil cooler above the oil filter ripped off by a stump, triggering the oil horn!

3
The fuel must be visible for inspection at all times. I'm going to cut a slot in my DIY stainless tank and close it off with a 1/2" thick clear polycarb plate held by a frame and screws with a fuel resistant gasket between the polycarb and the tank. I will cut a similar but round hole on top of the tank for a very bright light that makes the inside (especially the bottom) look like my mouth at the dentist even in ambient sunlight on snow!

4
the electric lift pump will be fed directly from the tank to which it will be fixed, with a protection plate defending against breakage.

5
a 2000 or+ watt heating pad between the tank and the protection plate that will be under the pad. The idea is to raise 28 gallons from -30c to +20c in an hour and keep it there thermostatically. The lift pump will feed a small shuttle tank.

6
If the main tank is not otherwise preheated then a metal return line coiled around the exhaust manifold with a thermostatically controlled selector valve to route the output into the shuttle tank when its content is cold and into the main tank when the shuttle tank temperature is 30c or more. This bit gets complicated but I'll finger something out. At lower shuttle tank temperatures the heated return would replenish the shuttle tank with the rest of replenishing coming from the main tank. In summer the heating coil around the exhaust would be inactive with just a line into the main tank. Another possibility is to use the prestone heater circuit coiled under the tank, etc.

 

[aczlan]

Personally, I would just put winter power service into your Diesel and not worry about it. If you use quality fuel with winter power service additive, a water block filter and change your filters every fall is extremely unlikely that you will have fuel problems.

Aaron Z

 

[fitterski]

Personally, I would just put winter power service into your Diesel and not worry about it. If you use quality fuel with winter power service additive, a water block filter and change your filters every fall is extremely unlikely that you will have fuel problems.
Aaron Z

Around here we have no 'grades of diesel' only 3-4 refinement classes according to seasonal temperatures. That MAY be what you meant? Heating oil & diesel are exactly one and the same product except for coloring added after refining. Unless I'm wrong the only active agent in all cold-weather additives is alcohol costing a couple of bucks per gallon but it all evaporates within hours. I have used it now and then but here's a typical scenario.

Let's say I suspect ice crystals in suspension blocking a filter so I ad some alcohol. It combines with water or ice and turns with them into a water solution which does not freeze. Now a water-separator might take them both out, or it might not. If you're lucky the op goes on without a hitch but when you shut down the alcohol in the tank continues evaporating so that after a while you're back to ice-crystals in suspension or solid ice globs. I've been through every one of these hoops over the last ten years :-(

For a worry free ride I'm going to preheat the tank fuel and keep all fuel above freezing throughout, and to the extent possible I'll do the water separation at tank level with this rocket-science innovation called a drain plug ))

 

[CalG]

Your obsession is not a justification for general concern.

Your winter conditions must be much more extreme than here. (banana belt here in S. VT|

I've had no problems with winter fuel and Power Service. Even at less than zero degrees F.

I fuel from 5 gal plastic jugs that sit on the dirt floor in the open "tractor shed". Maybe that's the ticket!

 

[fitterski]

Obsession? Almost if not all of the items come from discussion groups devoted to marine diesel problems resulting from experience in cold weather including tank materials and condition, the inspection windows, the lighting, the heating, the sealants required etc. etc. Very few if any of the ideas are originally mine.

I've been fuelling from 4 drums filled each November with winter heating oil good to -30/-35c but that is going to change to 5 gal. jerry cans mostly because of the physical requirements of handling 45 gal. drums at 74 years of age. This might help too for some reason but is not part of my systematic approach to bullet-proof operations.

 

[RickB]

Personally, I would just put winter power service into your Diesel and not worry about it. If you use quality fuel with winter power service additive, a water block filter and change your filters every fall is extremely unlikely that you will have fuel problems.

Aaron Z

I did exactly this for decades with the minor change of inserting my preferred fuel treatment.

 

[ruffdog]

Are the 4 drums stored outside? Drums stored outside standing up are known to suck water in around the bungs. With temperature changes, they will suck water that is standing on the top.

 

[Fallon]

No issues here with my fuel gelling up as long as I use Power Service white bottle. The 300 gallon tank on the stand I try to get filled in the fall for a winter blend. Had a drum or 2 of stuff I picked up in the summer make the winter just fine with some white bottle. Doesn't get into the negatives to much here in Colorado, but I've ran at -20 at least once before I got the big tank.

 

[aczlan]

Around here we have no 'grades of diesel' only 3-4 refinement classes according to seasonal temperatures. That MAY be what you meant? Heating oil & diesel are exactly one and the same product except for coloring added after refining. Unless I'm wrong the only active agent in all cold-weather additives is alcohol costing a couple of bucks per gallon but it all evaporates within hours. I have used it now and then but here's a typical scenario.

Let's say I suspect ice crystals in suspension blocking a filter so I ad some alcohol. It combines with water or ice and turns with them into a water solution which does not freeze. Now a water-separator might take them both out, or it might not. If you're lucky the op goes on without a hitch but when you shut down the alcohol in the tank continues evaporating so that after a while you're back to ice-crystals in suspension or solid ice globs. I've been through every one of these hoops over the last ten years :-(

For a worry free ride I'm going to preheat the tank fuel and keep all fuel above freezing throughout, and to the extent possible I'll do the water separation at tank level with this rocket-science innovation called a drain plug ))

No, I am referring to buying fuel from a good supplier such as a high-volume gas station that a lot of truck drivers use, rather than getting fuel from a little Podunk gas station that might go through a tank of diesel per month and has 6 in of water in the bottom of their fuel tank.
As for alcohol in the additive, Power Service Red I believe does have alcohol in it, but it is for emergency use only. Power Service White does not (or does not have much) and we have not had any issues with fuel gelling in fuel that we put Power Service White into.
We generally put the Power Service White into our hundred gallon bulk tank when it gets filled up and it seems to be fine throughout the winter even when the temperature drops into the single digits.

My concerns using the exhaust to pre-heat your fuel is that:
1. It will get too hot
2. That you will wear through a line, spring a leak and light it on fire...

Aaron Z

 

[shooterdon]

Are you saying that the normal anti gel additives are not providing sufficient protection in your environment? Seems like a lot of work to me...what does your county road commission do for their equipment?

Luckily, I have no need to operate a tractor much below 0* F. We can get down to the -30’s but not for extended periods.

Good luck

 

[Katahdin]

You're about 375 miles northeast of me. Two thoughts:

1). What brand of diesel do you use? I've used Irving down to -20C without problems and additives. I would trust winter fuel from the Saint John refinery in New Brunswick over fuel imported from the States.

2). Have you inspected and cleaned the tank in your cat? Maybe your water problems originate there from years of condensation and microbe growth.

 

[fitterski]

No, I am referring to buying fuel from a good supplier such as a high-volume gas station that a lot of truck drivers use, rather than getting fuel from a little Podunk gas station that might go through a tank of diesel per month and has 6 in of water in the bottom of their fuel tank.
As for alcohol in the additive, Power Service Red I believe does have alcohol in it, but it is for emergency use only. Power Service White does not (or does not have much) and we have not had any issues with fuel gelling in fuel that we put Power Service White into.
We generally put the Power Service White into our hundred gallon bulk tank when it gets filled up and it seems to be fine throughout the winter even when the temperature drops into the single digits.

My concerns using the exhaust to pre-heat your fuel is that:
1. It will get too hot
2. That you will wear through a line, spring a leak and light it on fire...

Aaron Z

You're probably right about the fire hazard, that method is just under study. The fuel I get is from very large volume suppliers, absolutely no problems there. But I HAD been storing it in 45 gallon drums without agitation. Finally congealing isn't my problem, it's water content either liquid (separable) or as cristalline suspension. Even winter grade fuel with much lower water content manages to leave a few quarts of water sitting at the bottom of the barrel later next summer. But it's really much more complex then this, gotta run now, be back later

 

[Fallon]

You're probably right about the fire hazard, that method is just under study. The fuel I get is from very large volume suppliers, absolutely no problems there. But I HAD been storing it in 45 gallon drums without agitation. Finally congealing isn't my problem, it's water content either liquid (separable) or as cristalline suspension. Even winter grade fuel with much lower water content manages to leave a few quarts of water sitting at the bottom of the barrel later next summer. But it's really much more complex then this, gotta run now, be back later

Generally that water showing up in the bottom will be the result of condensation or water leaking in.

Were your tanks sealed or vented? If vented air moving in & out as the tank breathes as it heats & cools during the day will pull moist air in to condense.

 

[fitterski]

Proof of concept prototype is as done as it's going to get this year. 3/8" polycarb pieces on the iside of inspection and light windows sealed with 1/8" nitril gaskets and stainless screws about 1/2" on center.

3rd row of pictures @

http://trixtar.org/3/tinkerings/blower1/index.html


The LED light module is on top and has a toggle switch. Inside the inspection window the intake end of the suction hose is clearly visible but my pride really revolves around the analog thermometer inside! It over reads by 5c, no big deal. I've started shakedown runs with the blower, engine preheat is 1500 watts of the circulation type. I had thought of using a Canadian Polar Pad but the chief over there there told me I was nuts, just like some have done here, on account of it being a fire hazard. Dumped. I might coil the intake of the engine preheater (coming back from the engine) through the tank for preheat (next summer). Most ops will last less than 2 hours so preheat might be all that's required, time will tell.

 

[crashz]

A few quarts of water in a drum seems like a lot of water. I think there is a problem in your fuel storage or possibly source. Venting or leaking from outside storage or something. Diesel will absorb some of that water, so your fuel is literally saturated. You may not be able to treat out that much water and your heating situation is only dealing with the symptoms.

If you fuel just by sealed Jerry cans, you may solve your issues. The sealed 5 gallon cans will not condensate much and you should keep them in dry places. You should also treat each can with your favorite brand (PS, Howes, etc) anti-gel. This combo will probably help clear up your situation, but if you still have gelling issues, try spiking the fuel with a little kerosene too. I typically run 4:1 diesel/ kero mix with additive and it keeps the lines nice and clear.

 

[LouNY]

Finally congealing isn't my problem, it's water content either liquid (separable) or as cristalline suspension.

If you are seeing floating particles in your fuel when its cold, below freezing that isn't ice floating it is wax particulates separating out of your fuel and waiting to plug a filter. Any water even frozen is heavier then fuel oil and will settle to the bottom of a tank or drum.

 

[fitterski]

A few quarts of water in a drum seems like a lot of water. I think there is a problem in your fuel storage or possibly source. Venting or leaking from outside storage or something. Diesel will absorb some of that water, so your fuel is literally saturated. You may not be able to treat out that much water and your heating situation is only dealing with the symptoms.

If you fuel just by sealed Jerry cans, you may solve your issues. The sealed 5 gallon cans will not condensate much and you should keep them in dry places. You should also treat each can with your favorite brand (PS, Howes, etc) anti-gel. This combo will probably help clear up your situation, but if you still have gelling issues, try spiking the fuel with a little kerosene too. I typically run 4:1 diesel/ kero mix with additive and it keeps the lines nice and clear.

i just moved away from drum storage, too old to toss those around. I called the former petro canada refinery once and they told me the heating oil and pump diesel were one and the same identical product varying in the degree of refinement (by steam?) according to seasonal temperatures. Color is added to heating oil for tax purposes, no longer a factor because both products are now very close in after tax price. So, the diesel i get at the pump or the heating fuel i get from my delivery truck into drums or into jerry cans both contain exactly the same amount of water, some in the summer and less in winter.

My problems have revolved around what I thought to be ice crystals in suspension. I would typically fill 'em up (4-6 drums) in late November when the arctic grade product hits the market. Come march the last drums have been sittin' still for 4 months! Another old timer (I've only been into this stuff for a decade) told me to stop stockpiling and my problems will vanish. So that's what I'm trying this winter, half a dozen cans from the pump at a time.

 

[fitterski]

If you are seeing floating particles in your fuel when its cold, below freezing that isn't ice floating it is wax particulates separating out of your fuel and waiting to plug a filter. Any water even frozen is heavier then fuel oil and will settle to the bottom of a tank or drum.

THAT's a new one for me Lou, very interesting. All I can affirm is that one freakin' cold morning i just couldn't start the cat-426 at all anymore. The prob had been getting worse with time. I ended up TS-ing that nothing was coming from the tank. I emptied it and went in with the mirror to see the intake end of the pickup pipe completely blocked by what i took to be ice seeing that it later melted away. It was accrued in typical tulip bulb fashion inside and outside the tube end where sudden flow-direction change was involved. There was no sign of any water or ice as such in the emptied contents.

Wax it may have been, it looked like water to me after it melted. Regardless, this little tank is a prototype, as a minimum I want to clearly see the fuel in the tank, the pickup pipe end, the fuel temperature, and the drain pit inside the tank. A prime pump and heat, at least in the form of preheat may follow. I'm already drawing the cut lines for the cat-426 tank to be redone along similar lines.

BTW are you sure that tiny ice crystals will sink out of suspension? I've read contradicting material, like how would they then end up plugging filters but the problem vanish as soon as the filter gets heated?

 

[LouNY]

Wax particles will dissolve back into the fuel at just a tad bit warmer then when they appear, so if enough get to afilter to coat the outside of the filter as soon as you warm up the filter or get a lighter fuel #1 into contact it will dissolve.
If you have a high powered engine sucking lots of fuel you can get a filter so plugged that not even #1 can cut it out.

 

[RickB]

Using an LED as a heat source is a waste of time, just like debating with a bunch of guys with cold weather diesel fuel management experience.