Grading GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat?

/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #21  
I believe on MF GC 17XX (05 to 20) series with ISEKI 3 cylinder diesel, all implements are are run off the pump in HST....

Dale

I seriously doubt that. How would that even be possible?. As with the swash plate in neutral the hydrostat pump make zero flow, there for zero pressure would be developed. Besides the first part of the paper he posted said the charge pump function was run off of the implement pump up on the engine... So NO>
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #22  
I seriously doubt that. How would that even be possible?. As with the swash plate in neutral the hydrostat pump make zero flow, there for zero pressure would be developed. Besides the first part of the paper he posted said the charge pump function was run off of the implement pump up on the engine... So NO>

Begging your pardon BUT there is no pump off camshaft of engine on the MS GC 17XX (05-20) series ... All pumps are located in HST housing all hydraulic plumbing originates on HST housing...... If I had not lost the copy of service manual in computer crash it would be easy to prove it....

THE flywheel end of engine block is solid ( and space directly next is occupied by muffler), and the timing gears for cam shaft and belts and pulleys for water pump and alternator occupies the "front" in close to radiator for engine (which is mounted reversed) ... Only thing I can find that may run off camshaft is diesel fuel pump....

Only "connection" from engine to all working parts of tractor is drive shaft off water pump, alternator belt pulley (crankshaft) to HST....


Dale
 
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/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #23  
Begging your pardon BUT there is no pump off camshaft of engine on the MS GC 17XX (05-20) series ... All pumps are located in HST housing all hydraulic plumbing originates on HST housing...... If I had not lost the copy of service manual in computer crash it would be easy to prove it....

THE flywheel end of engine block is solid ( and space directly next is occupied by muffler), and the timing gears for cam shaft and belts and pulleys for water pump and alternator occupies the "front" in close to radiator for engine (which is mounted reversed) ... Only thing I can find that may run off camshaft is diesel fuel pump....

Only "connection" from engine to all working parts of tractor is drive shaft off water pump, alternator belt pulley (crankshaft) to HST....


Dale

Well, I don't know where the implement gear pump is located on that machine, but the implement's DONT run off the hydrostatic pump. period. full stop. So what we may have is is a matter of semantics. You are now saying the implement pump is located internally not hanging out on the side of the engine. OK, cool. The implements still don't run of off the hydrostatic pump. Hydrostatic pumps are variable displacement pumps and are controlled by a swash plate with typically 9 slippers running on that swash plate and riding on those slippers are the pistons that direct the flow to the output ports. The swash plate angle is controlled by your foot. At zero angle or what we think of as neutral there is zero pump flow. That was my point, the hydrostatic pump does not run the implements. The implement pump is a continuous flow gear pump. The rated flow runs thru this pump continuously from the suction side from the sump thru the open center valves and back to the sump. So if we are arguing about a choice of words, fine, but I understood you to believe that the hydrostatic transmission pump was the source for the flow for the implements (FEL and 3 point lift, and any remotes if equipped).
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #24  
Isn’t it HST to power steering to FEL ? FEL to 3pt ? Seems to be the routing but I am a total noob to this.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #25  
Isn’t it HST to power steering to FEL ? FEL to 3pt ? Seems to be the routing but I am a total noob to this.

Correct... I have researched this extensively as there was a vague reference to "power beyond' in one of the MF brochures, and I looked and looked and looked and followed every diagram I can fine and no where is there any info on power beyond, shop manual does no even show how BH would get its power (power beyond).... Eve AGCO and Dealer are stumped....And in all the processes, everything points to pump for FEL and 3PH is in the housing that encloses the HST.....

Dale
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #26  
Well, I don't know where the implement gear pump is located on that machine, but the implement's DONT run off the hydrostatic pump. period. full stop. So what we may have is is a matter of semantics. You are now saying the implement pump is located internally not hanging out on the side of the engine. OK, cool. The implements still don't run of off the hydrostatic pump. Hydrostatic pumps are variable displacement pumps and are controlled by a swash plate with typically 9 slippers running on that swash plate and riding on those slippers are the pistons that direct the flow to the output ports. The swash plate angle is controlled by your foot. At zero angle or what we think of as neutral there is zero pump flow. That was my point, the hydrostatic pump does not run the implements. The implement pump is a continuous flow gear pump. The rated flow runs thru this pump continuously from the suction side from the sump thru the open center valves and back to the sump. So if we are arguing about a choice of words, fine, but I understood you to believe that the hydrostatic transmission pump was the source for the flow for the implements (FEL and 3 point lift, and any remotes if equipped).

Maybe issue is terminology, but the pump that runs all the hydraulics is internal to HST housing and uses same housing as its reservoir, you are most likely correct that it is NOT the HST pump that directly powers the hydraulics, but in no case is there any hydraulic pump(s) located on engine.... Only pumps on engine is diesel injection pump and water pump...... Since I lost all my reference material in computer crash, it is really hard for me to validate how system is designed and implemented..... Not calling you out I am actual pretty much in agreement with you...

Dale
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #27  
Does the MF17XX series have a double pump where one supplies steering, cooling oil and possibly charge flow for the HST while the other is used for implements like FEL & 3PH?

either way these pumps can be engine driven or in the tranny housing.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #28  
Maybe issue is terminology, but the pump that runs all the hydraulics is internal to HST housing and uses same housing as its reservoir, you are most likely correct that it is NOT the HST pump that directly powers the hydraulics, but in no case is there any hydraulic pump(s) located on engine.... Only pumps on engine is diesel injection pump and water pump...... Since I lost all my reference material in computer crash, it is really hard for me to validate how system is designed and implemented..... Not calling you out I am actual pretty much in agreement with you...

Dale

Yes, I think ours was a misunderstanding. The power steering circuit on most CUTS is derives from a separate stage on the hydraulic gear pump. Also many CUTS use this flow to also act as the charge pump for the hydrostat. The charge pump makes up for the "leakage" oil that gets by the pistons on the main hydro pump. Of course there can always be anomalies in how people design things, like putting the gear pump inside the hydro unit to run off of the main crank shaft instead of a camshaft driven pump. I can't see why that wouldn't work if they want to do that. It would sure as heck make it a lot harder to work on and replace. But they may be some benefit, but I can't think of what it is. Again, in "normal" cuts the power steering is on its own circuit, because you still need to steer and run the loader at the same time. So the second of the circuits on the gear pump (and the highest flow rate one) normally goes to the FEL first. Then thru any remotes in series if there are any out the power beyond port of the FEL control valve. then on to the 3 point control valve and dumps into the "tank" to be picked up by the suction side of the gear pump after going thru the low pressure suction filter. They hydro has its own filter normally and it is a high pressure filter.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #29  
Does the MF17XX series have a double pump where one supplies steering, cooling oil and possibly charge flow for the HST while the other is used for implements like FEL & 3PH?

either way these pumps can be engine driven or in the tranny housing.

Single hydraulic pump supplies fluid to power steering (2.6 GPM), FEL controls (6.5 GPM) , and 3PH (same 6.5 GPM as FEL), return to "tank" (HST reservoir) in that sequence....

The pump and geography of front of HST housing... "Control valve" portion of pressure regulator for 3PH ...
Pump-hst-2.jpg

Control Vale and forward.jpg

Dale
 
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/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #30  
Koua,
One advantage to the pump being in the transmission is very short inlet line with less chance for cavitation.

Our 5000 & 5600 Fords both had the implement pump in the transmission housing. Short steel pickup tube with screen similar to car engines.

DL
Appreciate the parts diagrams. Looks like priority flow system for steering.

Now back to original concern on why the tires won稚 spin for the OP.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #31  
I could not get my tires to spin but then I realized if I put it low and was easier on the pedal and running about 21-2200 rpm I could work it hard enough into the class 5 gravel to get the wheel/wheels to spin, in high the tires would just stop and no tire spin, running with HST on these scuts definitely has a learning curve on how to get the most out of the drive system, heck I could not even back up a ditch with a 20* incline until I did some reading and realized I need it in low and I put it in fwd, would not do it in just high, had me worried when I first got it. I do like HST.

Now about the hydraulic pump/system, is the power beyond located on the fel valve body? I guess I will need to do some reading and if I can not get a answer there I’ll go to the dealer on Monday and see if the service knows anything.



Jim.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #32  
I could not get my tires to spin but then I realized if I put it low and was easier on the pedal and running about 21-2200 rpm I could work it hard enough into the class 5 gravel to get the wheel/wheels to spin, in high the tires would just stop and no tire spin, running with HST on these scuts definitely has a learning curve on how to get the most out of the drive system, heck I could not even back up a ditch with a 20* incline until I did some reading and realized I need it in low and I put it in fwd, would not do it in just high, had me worried when I first got it. I do like HST.

Now about the hydraulic pump/system, is the power beyond located on the fel valve body? I guess I will need to do some reading and if I can not get a answer there I’ll go to the dealer on Monday and see if the service knows anything.



Jim.

Yes, the power beyond port is usually located on the FEL valve of most CUTS. An not being able to get the tires to spin in HI gear is common. But they should spin in LO gear.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #33  
Yes, the power beyond port is usually located on the FEL valve of most CUTS. An not being able to get the tires to spin in HI gear is common. But they should spin in LO gear.

Ya I am a Greenhorn when it comes to HST on a tractor and not one bit embarrassed about it, I bought it to mow more than anything else and with that 60 inch mmm it does a really nice job but as I use it I am finding more things to do and the more I do the more I realize I could of went with a CUT over a SCUT but it’s all a learning curve for me, I did not want to get something to big for my 12.7 acres of which 6 is cleaned now and mowed.

When I purchased the 1705 the salesman said it would be ok for my intended use but that intended use is growing and I did have a conversation about upgrading in the future and he said he would have no issues taking it back on a trade up, if this scut runs with little to no problems I can see myself getting into a 1734 in a couple years.

This scut will teach me about the use of HST and as far as Deadheading hydrostatic goes I think I have that figured out now.

Jim.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #34  
Ya I am a Greenhorn when it comes to HST on a tractor and not one bit embarrassed about it, I bought it to mow more than anything else and with that 60 inch mmm it does a really nice job but as I use it I am finding more things to do and the more I do the more I realize I could of went with a CUT over a SCUT but it’s all a learning curve for me, I did not want to get something to big for my 12.7 acres of which 6 is cleaned now and mowed.

When I purchased the 1705 the salesman said it would be ok for my intended use but that intended use is growing and I did have a conversation about upgrading in the future and he said he would have no issues taking it back on a trade up, if this scut runs with little to no problems I can see myself getting into a 1734 in a couple years.

This scut will teach me about the use of HST and as far as Deadheading hydrostatic goes I think I have that figured out now.

Jim.

Jim, it is pretty common for guys to trade up in tractor size. It is almost a given. Tractors "shrink" in size as soon as you start applying them to your land. Heck it even happened to me here on this property and I have owned 5 tractors, Two before I came here. Occasionally though in tight quarters you kinda wish you had the little one back. But only occasionally.

I only have about 7 acres total, and a lot of that is not even tractor navigable. I have the tractor size I need now to get things done. With the little one, there was always a rock or log I couldn't lift. So I lusted for "more". I didn't buy some things with the next tractor I should have, things like SSQA (Skid Steer Quick Attach) and other things that make tractor life so much easier like telescoping lower links and stabilizers. And many other so called "luxury" features. There is nothing luxury about them, they are just common sense necessities. Especially as you start to "age in". if you intend to switch between forks, bucket and grapple, Well you sure are going to need SSQA.

Don't need a grapple you say? I beg to differ. If you have things to clean up and move around your place, you need a grapple. Logs, rocks, cleaning up brush, and downed limbs, yeah sure you can accomplish that the "hard way" if you so choose, or you can go out there and clean it up in minutes with your grapple. Again as you get older, the second option starts looking a lot better. Of course grapples, require hydraulic hookups.

So think about that in your way of thinking about a new tractor. Anyway, good luck in your tractor journey, and if there is anything I can do in the way of help from here let me know.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #35  
Thanks. I already know when I upgrade the SSQA and front remote and dual rear remotes will be a given for top and side links for sure and already have a grapple picked out as a first extra being my back blade and box blade will work on a CUT for now.

My wife and I have been given the first opportunity to buy the 40 acres next to our property(about 670 feet are up against our property line) when they decide to sell, they want to do a CFD when they offer it to us in about 3 years so I would like to have a CUT by then that way I will not be overwhelmed with the smaller SCUT and can have some money for a down payment.

I was out today with the 1705 and my new Piranha bar opening up about a 30x50 foot area of heavy brush/briers that I had no intentions on opening up so I gave the 1705 a good go at it, this is where I realized that a CUT would be a better tool to have for this type of work so if I take it easy on the 1705 I will at least have a nice unit to trade up with. I am very happy with the 1705 so far for what I intended to use it for it was the right choice.

Jim.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #36  
Suggest trying it in 4wd.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #37  
Going out this afternoon and I will be dropping 1 to 4 scarifier teeth into the ground to see if the 1705 in turtle fwd and at 2400 rpm will tear any of the ground up or stop dead in it’s tracks from the sumac roots, I am running R4 tires and I will not over do it being I will start with one tooth and work my way up in depth and the number of scarifier teeth I have down. Call it a learning experience on my part.

Jim.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat?
  • Thread Starter
#38  
For science!!

Look forward to hearing back!
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #39  
Well here is 2.5 hours of work and no deadheading the hydrostat, spun tires under load. I ended up extending the center tooth on the box blade and used it like a ripper and holy cow did I have piles of roots and sod, did that for about 1.5 hours and then I just kept running around with the box blade tilted just enough to cut high spots, I also found a good size rock to try out the Piranha bar on and it got it out.

Next time out I will drop all three teeth down half way and finish cleaning out the rest of the roots and leveling the ground, class 5 gravel will be used to level the whole area out.

This is when I started.
4884BF0E-497F-43B2-A804-CF81B26DE75B.jpeg
Getting the rock out.
A57D2060-4166-425C-95CD-65705D813AD5.jpeg
What it looked like when I left today.
B3468EF4-FE79-4722-9B9D-7E5531C4E598.jpeg


Jim.
 
/ GC1720 - Deadheading hydrostat? #40  
There were a lot of high and low areas when I started but it all ended up fairly flat by the time I was done.


Jim.
 

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