Shibaura Engine running generator

[grsthegreat]

dont the glow pluge shut off prior to the starter engaging?

 

[grsthegreat]

im a generac trained technician, but i have limited experience with their diesel lines. I know the air cooled units should have a voltage reading on battery of 13.5 volts at standing and drop no less than 11 volts while cranking. You should check out the Ziller generator forum Ziller Forum they have a lot of liquid and diesel techs on that site that may help you

 

[LittleBill21]

honestly that sounds like you have something rubbing, sounds like metal on metal, i would also put an amp clamp on it and see what kind of amperage your pulling along with doing a voltage drop test on all wiring

 

[searcyfarms]

i wish you were closer i would come over and give you a hand - once you get that baby going you will absolutely LOVE it!!! I had something similar on a SS and there is a ground/interlock switch with a little key that has to be turned to engage the ground for starting, not sure why they put those in if for theft or what BUT, there was evidently corrosion or something wrong with the contacts inside it, i had put on a new ground wire, had the starter rebuilt, had the batteries replaced and then decided one day to hook the wires direct with a bolt and bypass it after spending all the money/time and that was it - if you can reach the starter bolt use your jumper cable to go right to it, and clamp the ground right to the unit, bypass all of the cabling, see how it acts -

 

[LittleBill21]

I have to admit that I'm confused a bit too. Four 6V batteries in series? All that to start a generator engine that's probably about 20hp? Then there's this issue with connecting all 6 batteries together? Do you have a diagram of this setup, because something doesn't sound right. It sounds more like Rube Goldberg wired it. I think you really need somebody that knows and understands DC electricity.

motorhome's have large battery banks to run lights appliances inside without ac power. the generators use those same battery's to start, they are not reserved only for the generator.

his system is prolly 12v, his 4 batterys are prolly in a series/parrallel arrangement to make the 12v

 

[AWSubie]

Zzjea: When you install the starter, is the starter gear disengaged from the fly wheel? You mentioned that you were surprised to see the starter gear was engaged with the flywheel the last time you looked at it. My thought here is that some starters require shimming between the starter housing and the engine mount in order to get adequate clearance between the starter gear and the flywheel teeth. Otherwise the starter gear can become lodged in the flywheel teeth due to friction. A test for this condition is to loosen the starter mount bolts and see if the starter gear snaps back to the disengaged position.

 

[zzjea]

I have to admit that I'm confused a bit too. Four 6V batteries in series? All that to start a generator engine that's probably about 20hp? Then there's this issue with connecting all 6 batteries together? Do you have a diagram of this setup, because something doesn't sound right. It sounds more like Rube Goldberg wired it. I think you really need somebody that knows and understands DC electricity.

Actually this is standard procedure for motorhomes. House batteries (anywhere from 2 to 8, 6v deep cycle in series to get 12v ouput) power all the DC electrical stuff in the MH plus there is a Converter for shore power (120vac) to convert from 120vac to 12vdc to charge the batteries. There is almost always a combination converter/inverter (which I have) that will supply 120vac to some circuits in the MH when there is no shore power available. All this works perfectly. Those same 4 6vdc deep cycle house batteries are used to crank the generator. They do not use the Cummins start batteries (2 12v) because they do not want you to run the risk of discharging those batteries and not being able to start the Cummins and get you moving.

The crossover switch is to momentarily connect all the house and chassis batteries together to provide additional amperage usually for a quick start of the MH engine if the chassis batteries are low. Engaging this switch made no difference for cranking the genset and if it were battery amperage problems only, it should have started the genset.

However, I have the same results of not cranking when I bypassed the house batteries and tried to jump the genset from my 12v car battery, while the car was running and the alternator producing 14v.

 

[zzjea]

Zzjea: When you install the starter, is the starter gear disengaged from the fly wheel? You mentioned that you were surprised to see the starter gear was engaged with the flywheel the last time you looked at it. My thought here is that some starters require shimming between the starter housing and the engine mount in order to get adequate clearance between the starter gear and the flywheel teeth. Otherwise the starter gear can become lodged in the flywheel teeth due to friction. A test for this condition is to loosen the starter mount bolts and see if the starter gear snaps back to the disengaged position.

It could be a fluke (rusty or something) since it has not started in a year until the other day. It did disengage when it started the other day.

 

[aczlan]

If your dropping down to 8 ish you not allowing enough volts to starter. As voltage drops, the amperage increases and wires arnt allowing it to pass.

Also, the voltage being too low can cause the starter solenoid/relay to drop out and shut off the starter.
Several mower manufacturers have had to add an additional relay so that the keyswitch turns on the relay which runs the starter solenoid/relay as the voltage drop through the keyswitch, seat switch, mower button, etc was enough that the starter solenoid/relay was dropping out when trying to start.

I have to admit that I'm confused a bit too. Four 6V batteries in series? All that to start a generator engine that's probably about 20hp? Then there's this issue with connecting all 6 batteries together? Do you have a diagram of this setup, because something doesn't sound right. It sounds more like Rube Goldberg wired it. I think you really need somebody that knows and understands DC electricity.

Probably the 6V batteries are wired with pairs in series and the pairs in parallel.

Aaron Z

 

[zzjea]

i wish you were closer i would come over and give you a hand - once you get that baby going you will absolutely LOVE it!!! I had something similar on a SS and there is a ground/interlock switch with a little key that has to be turned to engage the ground for starting, not sure why they put those in if for theft or what BUT, there was evidently corrosion or something wrong with the contacts inside it, i had put on a new ground wire, had the starter rebuilt, had the batteries replaced and then decided one day to hook the wires direct with a bolt and bypass it after spending all the money/time and that was it - if you can reach the starter bolt use your jumper cable to go right to it, and clamp the ground right to the unit, bypass all of the cabling, see how it acts -

I wish we were closer, I would take you up on it. I bet you would figure it out quickly if you were hands on. I will try this and see what happens. Temp is supposed to be 111 feels like, so I will see if I want to tackle it today. Thanks for the offer.

 

[zzjea]

dont the glow pluge shut off prior to the starter engaging?

I don't think so on this one. I have a separate button to press for glow plugs and fuel pump. Hold on for 10-15 sec and press start on genset. I do continue to hold it on until engine starts (that is if it starts).

 

[WranglerX]

Actually this is standard procedure for motorhomes. House batteries (anywhere from 2 to 8, 6v deep cycle in series to get 12v ouput) power all the DC electrical stuff in the MH plus there is a Converter for shore power (120vac) to convert from 120vac to 12vdc to charge the batteries. There is almost always a combination converter/inverter (which I have) that will supply 120vac to some circuits in the MH when there is no shore power available. All this works perfectly. Those same 4 6vdc deep cycle house batteries are used to crank the generator. They do not use the Cummins start batteries (2 12v) because they do not want you to run the risk of discharging those batteries and not being able to start the Cummins and get you moving.

The crossover switch is to momentarily connect all the house and chassis batteries together to provide additional amperage usually for a quick start of the MH engine if the chassis batteries are low. Engaging this switch made no difference for cranking the genset and if it were battery amperage problems only, it should have started the genset.

However, I have the same results of not cranking when I bypassed the house batteries and tried to jump the genset from my 12v car battery, while the car was running and the alternator producing 14v.

Obviously you don't know series from parallel...... FOUR 6 volt batteries in SERIES would make 24 volts.... FOUR 6 volt batteries in PARALLEL would be 6 volts but 4X the amperage.... TWO 12 volt batteries in SERIES would be 24 volts and TWO 12 volt batteries is PARALLEL would be 12 volts but 2X the amperage....

You need to go back and review DC POWER 101....

YOU statements only lends confusion to the issue as you keep claiming everything is 12 volt but insist every battery string is in series... IT JUST CAN NOT HAPPEN......

I buy the concept you have 2- 12 volt batteries in parallel, or 4 - 6 volt batteries in serie/parallel arrangement, but then my only experience is in DC power system for telecommunications...

24 cell string producing 2.25 volts per cell in series to produce 52.08 volt at float voltage, but about 500 amps per battery string (cell) ... 7 strings in picture 3,5000 amps (it's a work in progress and not completed)...

There is enough battery power here to melt your entire motorhome....

Also you might learn something about batteries here.....

Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ, Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List, and

Dale

 

[searcyfarms]

I wish we were closer, I would take you up on it. I bet you would figure it out quickly if you were hands on. I will try this and see what happens. Temp is supposed to be 111 feels like, so I will see if I want to tackle it today. Thanks for the offer.

that is how i figured out where my problem was with my skidsteer, the cutout switch was not carrying the power from the new batteries/cables/ground/starter, i was running out of things that could be the failure so now i work backwards lol, by connecting directly to the engine/starter with known good battery and bypassing everything else, i know if my starter is good then go to connections/wires, then to battery, the starter is the most costly i have found

 

[crashz]

I have no motor-home experience, but a have a diesel truck (the one in my avatar) that was always a bear to start. Cables looked good but were old, super clean connections, new batteries, new alternator, and even with a solid jump start off of a boost charger would barely crank over.

Changed the battery cables and it cranks up on the batteries alone like a new truck. Gotta fix everything else on it now.

My bet is the cables are not transmitting the needed voltage and amps to the starter.

 

[zzjea]

Obviously you don't know series from parallel...... FOUR 6 volt batteries in SERIES would make 24 volts.... FOUR 6 volt batteries in PARALLEL would be 6 volts but 4X the amperage.... TWO 12 volt batteries in SERIES would be 24 volts and TWO 12 volt batteries is PARALLEL would be 12 volts but 2X the amperage....

You need to go back and review DC POWER 101....

YOU statements only lends confusion to the issue as you keep claiming everything is 12 volt but insist every battery string is in series... IT JUST CAN NOT HAPPEN......

I buy the concept you have 2- 12 volt batteries in parallel, or 4 - 6 volt batteries in serie/parallel arrangement, but then my only experience is in DC power system for telecommunications...

24 cell string producing 2.25 volts per cell in series to produce 52.08 volt at float voltage, but about 500 amps per battery string (cell) ... 7 strings in picture 3,5000 amps (it's a work in progress and not completed)...

There is enough battery power here to melt your entire motorhome....

Alos you might learn something about batteries here.....

Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ, Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List, and

Dale

Thanks for the feedback. While I have been using 'series' as a catch all, I see that I need to be more precise. The 4 6v batteries are in series and parallel producing 12vdc output. They are connected similar to your diagram that references that arrangement. They are Trojan Golf Cart T-105 deep cycle with a 250ah rating each or 75amps for 115 minutes each. This is not a 24v system. I can test the output of the batteries and it will range from 12.5 to 14v depending on static or charging condition. I know just about every inch of this beast having remodeled the interior and fixed a lot of electrical and mechanical issues that usually occur in motorhomes (even the most expensive ones). I know some of you seem to be confused regarding 12 or 24v on my system so I apologize for not being more precise for those who know Ohms law. If you ever get a motorhome you will be dealing a lot with 12v. As far as I know, they don't make anything for motorhomes that is 24v. This is my 4th motorhome so I have some experience there.

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Are THOSE the MH batteies? Must be a pretty big MH to have a special battery room. lol

I bet in moderate temperatures I could start either of my 3 cyl Kubota Powered Generators with a (healthy, charged up) lawn and garden battery.

If you were close, I would love to get that sweetie running!

 

[zzjea]

Are THOSE the MH batteies? Must be a pretty big MH to have a special battery room. lol

I bet in moderate temperatures I could start either of my 3 cyl Kubota Powered Generators with a (healthy, charged up) lawn and garden battery.

If you were close, I would love to get that sweetie running!

I think you should consider a vacation trip to Texas. We are only about 75 miles from the Gulf, a suburb of Houston. Just think about all the fun you could have after fixing my Shibaura........

 

[Industrial Toys]

It beats the last offer a few days ago. Spoke with the sister of an old friend (deceased), who moved to Ireland, but stay at a hundred year old house she bought in New Brunswick, for a couple of weeks a year. Wants me to pile the cats into my truck and drive out (from Ontario) . Just for Fun. Then on the second call asks, if by any chance I have carpentry skills. lol Told her, I couldn't cut a piece of wood straight or to the right length, if my life depended on it, which is true.

 

[Industrial Toys]

A friend mostly installs Inverters in Utility Vehicles. But his day usually takes a turn for the worse when Onan or Xantrex sends some RV customer to his shop.

Few people apprently know how to wire those things, and most conform to no known electrical codes or standards. Anything pretty much goes as long as it works when it leaves the factory.

 

[zzjea]

I'm still working on some of the suggestions but have not tried everything yet. Just a reminder, I do have a 12vdc system through and through. No 24v or 48v or anything else.

I have a few electrical/mechanical questions for the experts:

1. Can a solenoid be intermittent or is it either good or bad period? Does it output exactly the same current and amps it receives if working properly? If not working properly, can the output volts or amps be less than on the input terminal or will there be no energy flow at all?

2. Can a starter motor be damaged or diminished due to low amperage to it? What would be the symptoms and damage internally if so?

3. I have gotten the starter to start the engine at times, so does that mean the starter is good? Can the starter itself (not the power to it) be intermittent in effectively turning the flywheel?

When I jumped the power connector to the genset from a running car (12v battery) at 14v, grounded to the genset frame, it had the same response as when connected to the house batteries. My next test will be to do the same thing but go directly to the positive terminal on the starter.

Hope someone can answer some of my questions above.

Thanks
John