Feeling ripped off.....fill dirt

[CMV]

I have a guy local that mixes sand and clay for a better quality fill. It IS mixed before loading, not half and half. He sells it delivered for $10 yd. $180 per truck load. The top of his 18 yd truck will be heaped so you don't have to climb anything to see what you are getting. I'm sure he has a distance limit but he is close enough to me that I pay no extra delivery.

Tell him if he expands 'local delivery area' to include NC he has a new customer I'd like that clay+sand mix

 

[4570Man]

Hauling dirt isn’t an exact art. Nobody scales dirt trucks around here.

 

[TheMan419]

When we bought sand for our riding arena it was all weight. That was the only way they would do it. Of course I knew the arena was a certain size and depth I wanted the footing. So I had an idea of how many yards I needed. Basically it came down to the sand I ordered was approximately so many pounds per yard. I then ordered a certain tonnage. I got tickets showing me the weight with each load. Turns out I need more sand than I thought. Not sure if it settles or if they were just wrong on the number of pounds per yard or what.

I would not buy material like this by volume. Kind of like your potato chip bag. Settling occurs during transport....

 

[Industrial Toys]

Sand is a good one. Maybe you bought a lot of water!

 

[EddieWalker]

Water weighs just over 8 pounds a gallon. When they haul it by the pound, a lot of the time they will add water to it and say it's to keep it from blowing out while on the road, but it's also a great way to get more money for load without doing much of anything. Just spray it with the hose for ten minutes and made some extra cash.

I would be very surprised if anybody could tell the supplier how they are going to pay. They make their money on the city jobs and bigger contractors. Small jobs to people out in the country are mostly just to keep their employees busy when they are caught up with big jobs.

 

[4570Man]

Water weighs just over 8 pounds a gallon. When they haul it by the pound, a lot of the time they will add water to it and say it's to keep it from blowing out while on the road, but it's also a great way to get more money for load without doing much of anything. Just spray it with the hose for ten minutes and made some extra cash.

I would be very surprised if anybody could tell the supplier how they are going to pay. They make their money on the city jobs and bigger contractors. Small jobs to people out in the country are mostly just to keep their employees busy when they are caught up with big jobs.

Fill dirt it’s self is cheap. It’s the delivery that cost money. Why spend the effort to water it when you could just dump some more on?

 

[EddieWalker]

Fill dirt it’s self is cheap. It’s the delivery that cost money. Why spend the effort to water it when you could just dump some more on?

There are two ways to charge for materials. By the yard, or by the ton. When it's charged by the ton, it tends to get water added to it. Gravel and sand are almost always watered once loaded with the excuse being that the water holds it together better while driving and it doesn't blow away out of the truck. In my opinion, the real reason is that water weights 8 pounds per gallon, which makes it a very easy way to add weight to the load.

I've never heard of or seen anybody add water to a load that is sold by the yard.

 

[Richard]

I don't know what you got....but years ago, I bought some topsoil. There was a sign at the end of a dead-end road advertising something like "Truckload of Topsoil $50" (or whatever the price was, it might have been $500 for all I remember)

Anyway...

Caught my attention... and I needed some so called and over phone, gave CC info... they showed up & dumped. It LOOKED like the truck itself was maybe 50% loaded. I don't recall any other comment than "Truckload" of soil.

Once delivered, I felt I'd been had. I GOT a "truckload" of dirt.... they just didn't specify nor did I think to inquire.... heaped load, struck load, 50% load, 13 rocks?...

Kind of laughed at what I'd done to myself and chalked it up as a lesson... now I know more of what to ask.

But...instead... found some land on the backside of the farm that was situated such that I could dig it out with my backhoe and carry it over myself (it just took a LOT more time however, I enjoy it so didn't mind too much)

I don't know where that dirt came from...might have been sediment from eons ago because it was nearly rock free and just good topsoil. Might have been silt for all I know but it dug nicely and poured nicely when I worked it.

 

[Industrial Toys]

No doubt about it. It's expensive to have equipment on the public roads. At least here. And it's only going to get worse as more and more guys get caught operating unlawfully and either go legit or leave it to the above board guys and then the customer will have to pay the real operating costs plus profit.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Had 2 tandem loads delivered yesterday of fill dirt. Just plain old Carolina red clay. 13 cu yds is one tandem load (advertised, sold by volume, not weight like stone).

Was extending a shooting berm/backstop. Addition is 16' wide, 6' deep, 7.5" high. So picture piling that against an L-shaped wall getting to 7+ft high at top. The way it flows/spreads, I get 6' at the bottom (with some bigger clods and stuff rolling off the mound extending beyond 6' a little), but only about 2.5' at the top. The L-shaped wall is pretty much to contain the pile so it will go up vs just continually spread out as it goes higher.

If I calculate that volume as a full rectangle shape I get 26.7 cu yds. But since not a box and the actual shape it takes is more of a right triangle, should take less dirt. So I was thinking 2x 13yd loads would be perfect - fill it and leave a small pile left to go back after it settles & compacts and top it back off. But it took all of both loads just about so no way they both = 26 yds. I had probably 3 scoops left when I was done - ~1.5 yds - and that was enough to level out the little ruts I made running the tractor over the same small area over & over piling up the dirt.

Is it pretty common to sell fill dirt, mulch, etc that way? i.e. full truck holds "about X yds" but there is a pretty large variance?

Over the years have had lots of fill dirt & gravel delivered. The piles look HUGE - esp when a quad axle delivers - and it never goes that far once you start using it - I get that part. My bucket holds 1/2 yard - not sure if that is struck or heaped, but the scoops I took weren't heaped a lot (not pushing in, curling, getting as much material as possible heaped in bucket) since I was taking to full height and keeping a overly heaped bucket level all the way up just drops a lot, so full buckets, but not heaped real high. Anyway, that should have been 50+ scoops. I didn't count, but as slow as I was going, no way I moved 50+ scoops.

I didn't see the 2nd load - he just came and dumped it while I was working on something else not paying close attention, but did get a pic of him dumping the first load. I think company name is obscured well enough to post.... Am I wrong in thinking the bed of that truck should have been "fuller"?

View attachment 575986

Remember the swell factor. The loose material in the truck has the swell added, once you place it and compact some you delete the swell so you actually put less in place than was in the truck. Folks tend to forget that. Same when you excavate; a certain size hole measures out a cube. Dig that out and it takes up a lot more space. There are tables that show the swell for for various materials in civil construction manuals.

Ron

 

[pmsmechanic]

You guys are doing it all wrong.....

I wanted a pond hole on my yard filled up around the half way mark. I waited till the local municipal district was looking a place to haul fill and asked them to dump in my pond. Every time they work in the area I'll stop and chat and let them know that I'm looking for fill. It doesn't need to be perfectly clean. It just needs to be fill. I'm estimating that I'm at about 150 loads now, all delivered for free. It's to the point now that the guys will phone me asking if they can deliver fill. The project is close to being finished.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

You guys are doing it all wrong.....

I wanted a pond hole on my yard filled up around the half way mark. I waited till the local municipal district was looking a place to haul fill and asked them to dump in my pond. Every time they work in the area I'll stop and chat and let them know that I'm looking for fill. It doesn't need to be perfectly clean. It just needs to be fill. I'm estimating that I'm at about 150 loads now, all delivered for free. It's to the point now that the guys will phone me asking if they can deliver fill. The project is close to being finished.

It doesn't get any better than that. Do they spread it too?

Ron

 

[4570Man]

I wish I could land a deal like that. The only free fill I’ve been offered was sawed concrete. If it was jackhammered concrete I would have probably taken it. My uncle got paid a sizable amount of money by the state to dump dirt on his property so it does get better than free.

 

[CalG]

My question is how can it be OK to sell by the cubic yard (volume), but some feel it is OK to deliver by the ton (weight)

Makes no sense at all.

It would be like ordering a chord of hard fuel wood and getting 2 ton of pine.

 

[4570Man]

Scaling dirt hardly ever happens here. The dirt places don’t have scales available. Maybe if a quarry was expanding you could get a load of scaled dirt. How do you measure yardage? By the scoop or appearance in the truck bed? Neither is very precise.

 

[pmsmechanic]

It doesn't get any better than that. Do they spread it too?

Ron

No I spread it. I honestly never thought of asking them to do it!

It's interesting. I'm thankful for the fill and they are thankful for a place to dump it.

 

[bcp]

Remember the swell factor. The loose material in the truck has the swell added, once you place it and compact some you delete the swell so you actually put less in place than was in the truck. Folks tend to forget that. Same when you excavate; a certain size hole measures out a cube. Dig that out and it takes up a lot more space. There are tables that show the swell for for various materials in civil construction manuals.

Ron

But, there is a shrinkage factor, too. Whenever I plant something, I dig a hole, place the plant in the hole, scoop the dirt back in around it, then have to go get some more dirt to fill in the rest of the hole.



Bruce

 

[ddbackhoe]

There are two ways to charge for materials. By the yard, or by the ton. When it's charged by the ton, it tends to get water added to it. Gravel and sand are almost always watered once loaded with the excuse being that the water holds it together better while driving and it doesn't blow away out of the truck. In my opinion, the real reason is that water weights 8 pounds per gallon, which makes it a very easy way to add weight to the load.

I've never heard of or seen anybody add water to a load that is sold by the yard.

I have never seen that done. When I mentioned weight + water its because the places where I deal with, it depends on how much rain we have had, not because they are irrigating. When placing fill, we try to account for moisture content for compaction rate also.

 

[TheMan419]

But, there is a shrinkage factor, too. Whenever I plant something, I dig a hole, place the plant in the hole, scoop the dirt back in around it, then have to go get some more dirt to fill in the rest of the hole.



Bruce

Yep. Just planted some posts. Added concrete as well. The dirt that came out of the hole was just enough to refill the hole after adding the post and the concrete....

 

[ddbackhoe]

Scaling dirt hardly ever happens here. The dirt places don’t have scales available. Maybe if a quarry was expanding you could get a load of scaled dirt. How do you measure yardage? By the scoop or appearance in the truck bed? Neither is very precise.

You may not be seeing the whole picture. Some places use scales on the loader, some use scales on the truck, some use average weighting. 1 cu.yd. Of clay is about 1700 pounds, one cu. yd. of sand/clay is about 2500 pounds. One cu.yd. Of mulch is about 1000 pounds. A tri-axle dump averages out to 22 cu. yds. But is limited by weight more than volume. 22 yards of mulch wouldn’t be a weight issue but 15 yards of sand is.
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