Steel prices - Yikes!

[Ken]

My opinion is Tariffs is a tax and the government gets the money. and if buying the material is iron you get the shaft as normal when the government is involved.

Grain 2017 still unsold in storage and the 2018 crop where it gong to be put.

ken

 

[strantor]

The people who suffer from price increases due to domestic tariffs are other Americans. If foreign steel sold in the US is subject to a 25% price increase by fiat, then it follows that US manufacturers are the ones who have to pay the 25% increase in material cost. Which means that US manufacturers now have to compete on the global market with a 25% handicap in material cost; the foreign manufacturers aren't paying the tariff on their imported steel. It's a redistribution of wealth from US manufacturers (and the consumers who pay more for the goods now produced at a higher cost) to the US steel industry. I guess if you really like the steel industry that might sound good to you, but at the end of the day it's still Americans who are going to pay for this.

I was on the fence about the issue until I read your post. You're absolutely right.

 

[Oldoak]

I think (I hope) the tariffs are part of a larger plan to balance trade between China and the US. Sure it is going to hurt some, help others but hopefully down the road our net import/export dollars will balance out a bit.

And I certainly can agree with that. Today's society is so narrowly focused on "all about me", "me first", they refuse to look at the big picture. There will always be winners and losers, but what is best for the "greater good" is what it is all about. Cheap imports is what put a lot of American workers here in the U.S.A. out of work or forced into accepting low paying service industry jobs.

President Trump is trying to correct our lop sided trade deficit created years ago by lobbyists and our greedy multi-millionaire politicians who care nothing about the working class.

 

[kthompson]

The big picture is to be better to your allies than your enemies (not the other way around).

One reason I think the Allies won WWII and maybe WWI also was the Allies had their own factories and raw materials. Not sure how self sufficient those same nations even as a whole are today. If some else controls a part for your equipment they affect your ability. If you eat my food not sure how long you may eat. If you can not see the benefits of honesty pricing and bringing those industries home you do not understand the value of those jobs. When all the manufacturing jobs are closed who is left employed? McDonalds will close, the hospitals and doctors offices will close, taxes will become bigger percentage of income as income will drop but government spending will not decrease. The economy of any country depends on a stable quality manufacturing business base.

I read this earlier and thought on the 50 and 70 percentage increase. That is not reasonable. This may harm some business and has caused me to put off building a hay barn I need for knew it was coming before we could get price locks. But "I" do not think this will last many months especially with some new agreements already worked out. But in times like this is also a great time for a business to grow, yes grow. If another is using this to make unfair increases and you are making only the true necessary increases it can be a good time to gain customers. You can prove the difference in honesty in doing so. Okay say the steel went up by 50%, all other cost did not. The shipping cost is still the same, the over head for the company for labor, utilities, emplloyess pay and their benefits did not go up with the steel.

Them raising the price by the same % the steel increase is may be fair in their business for the steel cost maybe is 95% of their total cost but if not then totally out of line. Less say you had a block building built and they installed two steel garage doors, would it make sense the cost for the total building would increase the amount the garage doors did?

Look at the great North East of the US, use to be a major manufacturing region and much of that has been loss to other areas of the US but to other parts of the world. Look at Detroit, same thing. if you don't think those jobs are not valuable not only look at the areas they moved from but also look where they opened new plants.

I know the tariffs are hurting my needs right now but I think long term it is major benefit.

 

[Ritothebull]

The US already manufactures almost 70% of its own steel and most of the major importers of steel to the US like Brazil and South Korea are exempt from the new tariffs so it's unlikely that much of the price increases are being caused by the recently imposed tarrifs, and the major steel producers have production facilities spread around the world so their not going to be bothered so much by things like trade quotas and tarrifs either. Right now the cost of fuel and shipping are high and they affect steel prices more than anything and with construction and factory orders up all building materials and metals will no doubt continue to rise as well.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

We all may can agree we were heading towards a brick wall at 90 MPH. What is being tired may fail but to do nothing would be in my view child abuse of the children of the USA today and tomorrow. Short term gains often harm the future. I am thankful that I have lived long enough to see a businessman in charge of the future of the USA for the first time for the sake of my 20 year old kids and their potential kids.

 

[Oldoak]

We all may can agree we were heading towards a brick wall at 90 MPH.................

Totally disagree with you and many other nay sayers.

I would not call this a brick wall!

August 218 jobs report: Job growth surged in August, 21, jobs were added - CBS News

 

[Snobdds]

No american company can compete with steel dumping by countries where the state subsides them. Steel companies in China don't make a profit, they lose money by importing steel. However they don't care, they want market share.

Make no mistake, it was done strategically by China to undercut American business. Now do we sit back and just take it or do we do something about it?

I feel we need to play the long game on this, because we do still hold the upper hand with China on trade and to a greater extent, economic strength. This might not be the case in 10 or 20 years.

There is no doubt there is predatory pricing and a fear risk premium in the price of steel right now. Those are not fundamental cost to production of steel and at some point go away. Just like oil ramps up with turmoil in the middle east and then subside in time of relative peace. The long view has nothing but up side for the US if China is not allowed to dump cheap steel on American markets. It critical that someone calls them on the carpet and they feel the hurt long enough that they come to some solution. We can't produce all the steel we need domestically and need some importation to keep the economy going

In the mean time, American steel factories will began production again and if the quality is superior to China steel, demand will start for good steel. Then the cycle will repeat and China will have to play catch up for the new demand.

A side note, does anyone ever notice how steel made 50-60 years ago hardly never rusted out compared to today's steel. That was because the US steel had a higher nickle content and prevented widespread corrosion. It will be a return to this or something similar to progress the steel business. Sometimes shocks to the system are needed to spur technological developments.

 

[cdb2]

Make no mistake, it was done strategically by China to undercut American business.

It may undercut other steel producers, but getting cheap materials below their cost to produce is an absolute boon for manufacturers and consumers here! Getting China to pay for our domestic manufacturing by subsidizing their steel prices seems like the sort of thing people ought to be cheering about. Or, put another way, since China is currently spending their money to help US businesses make cheaper products through subsidies, why would you not want US businesses to take advantage of that as long as possible?

 

[Snobdds]

It may undercut other steel producers, but getting cheap materials below their cost to produce is an absolute boon for manufacturers and consumers here! Getting China to pay for our domestic manufacturing by subsidizing their steel prices seems like the sort of thing people ought to be cheering about. Or, put another way, since China is currently spending their money to help US businesses make cheaper products through subsidies, why would you not want US businesses to take advantage of that as long as possible?

This advocates the robbing peter to pay paul theory. Should American jobs and industry be put to pasture so Building companies here can pay less and exploit the exact thing the Chinese want?. A boon for one sector is a dead weight on another, is that really what we should be cheering on here?

 

[cdb2]

This advocates the robbing peter to pay paul theory. Should American jobs and industry be put to pasture so Building companies here can pay less and exploit the exact thing the Chinese want?. A boon for one sector is a dead weight on another, is that really what we should be cheering on here?

On the contrary, cheaper materials mean more jobs in manufacturing and better quality of life for consumers through lower prices. The capital invested in steel production can be profitably put to use in other industries, as can the labor. But when you artificially increase the cost to produce goods, everyone gets poorer as a result. And it's worst of all for US manufacturers who will no longer be able to compete against global manufacturers who don't have artificially high production costs. That's robbing the US manufacturing and the average American consumer in order to pay the steel industry.

If tariffs and trade protection were really a panacea, why have previous tariffs failed to sustainably increase domestic steel production? Why have they instead led to manufacturing job loss and higher prices? When the same sort of tariff was tried in 2002, we did we lose more jobs in US manufacturing alone due to increased steel prices than the total number of people employed in the US steel industry?

 

[Snobdds]

On the contrary, cheaper materials mean more jobs in manufacturing and better quality of life for consumers through lower prices.

Since you emphasised this...

You are looking at only one side of this complex coin. Again, cheaper foreign materials make a boom for one sector while crushing another sector. Cheap steel helps price shopping builders, but they crush domestic production. How is that a "Net" positive for Americans and their quality of life? Seems to me that is a only a positive for the price shopper only. I don't think that makes the overall population of americans have a better quality of life.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I know this is about STEEL, but I heard on the Patriot Channel that the US is getting the worlds largest Alluminum Plant in Kentucky. If true, things are certainly looking up.

 

[cdb2]

You are looking at only one side of this complex coin.

I'm looking at the outcomes. And history tells us that that steel tariff's are more harmful to manufacturers and consumers than they are helpful to steel producers. More Americans are harmed to a greater degree by a steel tariff than are helped by it. It's simple, and that's what matters to me.

Cheap steel helps price shopping builders, but they crush domestic production. How is that a "Net" positive for Americans and their quality of life?

I think you should ask the 200,000 Americans who lost their manufacturing jobs due to increased steel prices after the 2002 steel tariff was created whether they have a better quality of life because of it.

You can argue that it's not fair for American companies to have to compete with foreign companies who have lower costs and I'm sympathetic to that, but at the end of day you gotta realize that the world just ain't a fair place. You have to do the best you can with what you've got, and what we've got right now is the ability to make lots more jobs and cheaper goods using materials that aren't produced here.

Now if you are really interested in leveling the playing field for US industry, then reducing regulation and it's associated costs are the single best way to help businesses in our country compete with the rest of the world. NOT tariffs that pretend to help but in fact do tremendous harm to American industry and the public. I'd guess that the cost of doing business the government imposes through regulation and taxes is at least as much as the 25% tariff being slapped on foreign steel. You get rid of that cost, and then suddenly US producers may be able to compete on a fair level with foreign producers, and without ANY of the negative side-effects on US manufacturing. In fact, that would benefit everyone because more production at lower cost necessarily means lower prices and more manufacturing. So why is no-one hollering to make it cheaper for US business to operate and compete with the rest of the world?

Seems to me that is a only a positive for the price shopper only. I don't think that makes the overall population of americans have a better quality of life.

This is way off on a tangent, but realize that we are ALL price shoppers, all the time. It's basic economics; what you consume is limited by what you can afford, that's everything from the quality of the food you eat to the energy you heat your house with to the quality and amount of health care your insurances payments buy you. And of course the size of tractor you can buy.

Higher prices mean less of the things that define our quality of life, and that includes shorter lifespans due to more expensive health care.

Now off to work, but looking forward to continuing the debate later.

 

[Snobdds]

I'm looking at the outcomes. And history tells us that that steel tariff's are more harmful to manufacturers and consumers than they are helpful to steel producers. More Americans are harmed to a greater degree by a steel tariff than are helped by it. It's simple, and that's what matters to me.



I think you should ask the 200,000 Americans who lost their manufacturing jobs due to increased steel prices after the 2002 steel tariff was created whether they have a better quality of life because of it.

You can argue that it's not fair for American companies to have to compete with foreign companies who have lower costs and I'm sympathetic to that, but at the end of day you gotta realize that the world just ain't a fair place. You have to do the best you can with what you've got, and what we've got right now is the ability to make lots more jobs and cheaper goods using materials that aren't produced here.

Now if you are really interested in leveling the playing field for US industry, then reducing regulation and it's associated costs are the single best way to help businesses in our country compete with the rest of the world. NOT tariffs that pretend to help but in fact do tremendous harm to American industry and the public. I'd guess that the cost of doing business the government imposes through regulation and taxes is at least as much as the 25% tariff being slapped on foreign steel. You get rid of that cost, and then suddenly US producers may be able to compete on a fair level with foreign producers, and without ANY of the negative side-effects on US manufacturing. In fact, that would benefit everyone because more production at lower cost necessarily means lower prices and more manufacturing. So why is no-one hollering to make it cheaper for US business to operate and compete with the rest of the world?



This is way off on a tangent, but realize that we are ALL price shoppers, all the time. It's basic economics; what you consume is limited by what you can afford, that's everything from the quality of the food you eat to the energy you heat your house with to the quality and amount of health care your insurances payments buy you. And of course the size of tractor you can buy.

Higher prices mean less of the things that define our quality of life, and that includes shorter lifespans due to more expensive health care.

Now off to work, but looking forward to continuing the debate later.

If bringing in all goods because they can be made cheaper someplace else and quality of life increase exponentially, why has this not been done yet?

 

[Industrial Toys]

It's something I have always wondered about.

When you have a town of 100-250 Thousand people and they loose all manufacturing jobs, and there are only Dollar stores, Walmart, Chain restaurants, various service industry and a large publicly funded Hospital. Is that a sustainable economical model? When business simply mark up products, is that the same as a value added manufacturing business?

 

[Ritothebull]

It's something I have always wondered about.

When you have a town of 100-250 Thousand people and they loose all manufacturing jobs, and there are only Dollar stores, Walmart, Chain restaurants, various service industry and a large publicly funded Hospital. Is that a sustainable economical model? When business simply mark up products, is that the same as a value added manufacturing business?

Most of the people that I know that think cheap imports are a good thing have never been to a town like you are describing, they are living comfortably somewhere far away from that town and don't really care about the folks that live there, kinda like a lot the guys up in Washington.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I own more tools, power and otherwise, and plenty of other stuff because it's so darn cheap. My Father owned one Red Robertson screwdriver (with a wooden handle) that we got him for Christmas. It might have been his only gift actually. Now a guy may own a dozen. Do we really need all this cheap stuff?

Government is so mired in debt, it's probably almost impossible to know what actually works anymore. The Hospital has plenty of very well paid, underworked employees that pump money into the local economy, but from where? Just more Debt which means it's a system just living on borrowed time?

 

[ArlyA]

I was in my grandparents attic looking at magazines from the 20's and 30's. Seems it was a Popular Mechanics... GE had a large ad in it showing there 7.25" skill saws they offered for just 79.99!! direct from them and they also offered a nice trade-in if you sent them the current 7.25 saw you used.. I was shocked by the amount these GE made saws cost back then! What would these cost us today?

Point is, manufacturers of tools have got better and better and reduced the prices, we all pay today. This also goes for steel and trade tariffs are famous for stopping any industry of increasing there efficiency. Go figure.

Arly* most of my in-laws family worked for the steel industry A

*industrial history is a thing I do love.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I doubt GE made Skil Saws. lol

A friend was just telling me how he has an Original Sawzall, mint, all cast body.

I love watching documentaries of Fords River Rouge Plant. Raw materials in one end and Model Ts out the other!