YAHP(Yet Another Heat Pump) Question/Issue

[dmccarty]

<sigh>

I guess it is our turn.

Our 13-14 year old Goodman HVAC system has a leak. The HVAC guy was out today, and since our unit has the older refrigerant, we need to have a new condenser and evaporator. <sigh>

Long story short, the condenser unit is a good 65 foot run to the evaporator which is not efficient but there is not much we can do about it. Will adding more insulation around the refrigerant line help increase the system efficiency?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[RNeumann]

Their is some gain but it's minimal. If I had a few hours and $100 to spend on increasing my home's efficiency I wouldn't start there.

Btw- the older refrigerant is available. It is possible to find the leak and repair just that part. You don't need new everything because of an undiagnosed leak. You may want a second option before you drop several thousand bucks. They can add dye to the system that makes finding the leak fairly easy- typically with a UV light. Good luck.

 

[RNeumann]

If you do go the insulation route remember fiberglass as near zero r value with any air movement. You will need to stick to the foam or other commercial type insulation.

 

[dmccarty]

Their is some gain but it's minimal. If I had a few hours and $100 to spend on increasing my home's efficiency I wouldn't start there.

I was guessing that while it was not the most efficient configuration it really was not that costly. The bigger issue was how they installed the systems in the attic but that is another story and not worth fixing either.

Btw- the older refrigerant is available. It is possible to find the leak and repair just that part. You don't need new everything because of an undiagnosed leak. You may want a second option before you drop several thousand bucks. They can add dye to the system that makes finding the leak fairly easy- typically with a UV light. Good luck.

The repair guy put in some refrigerant a few weeks ago and it leaked out pretty quickly in about a week. At this point, is it worth patching up a 14 year old system, especially a system that uses the old refrigerant which will eventually not be available and is expensive now? :confused3:

Just got a cost of $5,800 to replace the condenser and evaporator which seems high to me...

Later,
Dan

 

[RNeumann]

While their is some energy loss in the lineset that does benefit from insulation, it's minimal. Most of the magic happens in the evaporator.
Refrigeration Cycle Tutorial: Step by Step, Detailed and Concise! - YouTube

As far as replacement- It sounds like your system was working fine sans the leak. Your tech should have added some dye to the system so you know where the leak is. This is a common thing to do when adding refrigerant that leaked out. You may have a leak at a fitting or something simple and spending $5800 would be a waste of money. Even if the leak was at the evaporator I'd just replace that part. Once you get into a failed compressor or condenser then you need to crunch numbers- fix vs replace. But at this point you have an undiagnosed issue. It's troubling you brought in a tech who was more interested in selling you new than telling what's wrong.
The whole refrigerate shortage scare is overhyped. My buddy still has bottles of R-12 (1980s tech) thinking he would need it- what a waste of money! Before I dropped $5800 on new I'd find out what is wrong. If it's simple, fix it. If you are paranoid about not having refrigerant have the tech sell you a bottle to keep for yourself. Worst case you wait a few years and sell it on eBay when the hysteria really kicks in.

As far as $5800- that sounds high ballpark. A "good" salesman (who is a good teacher) should give you at least 3 prices. The tract home version, the custom home version and the top of the line over the top version. With cost comes increased efficiency. Their will be a sweet spot for your area. If electricity is cheap and you have a well insulated home and mild climate- skip the fancy stuff. If you run your AC/heat pump 24/7 and you have tiered electrical costs then the custom home version may be your best bet. Rarely is the top of the line in efficiency worth the cost- that is reserved for folks who want to be on the cutting edge irregardless of cost. Ask what the company owner and or his techs have in their house.

Btw- brand and price point have little to do with how long a product will last. Most of the stuff contractors install- that they purchase from the local wholesaler is fine quality- Ford vs Chevy vs Toyota vs Honda etc.

 

[dadster4]

Unless the leak is on an aluminum coil it should be repaired and the unit charged properly. Ask that another tech with more experience be sent to locate the leak and make the repair. With an electronic leak detector the leak can be found in less than 30 minutes. Techs are often given incentives ($$$) to condemn units and pass the info on to a company salesman.

 

[dmccarty]

Guys, thanks for the info.

We certainly do not need a higher SEER unit, unless there was no price difference over a lower SEER system. The guy has asked if we wanted to price out an American Standard system but I would think that will be more money and what would we be getting in return? We will ask though.

Getting old refrigerant and a decent price is certainly one of our concerns. If this is not that big of an issue it does change priorities a bit.

We are going to ask some more questions to the company, which is a simply two man operation, not a large company, and get a second opinion.

Part of the cost might be because of our attic access. We have a fair amount of room up there with 6 foot height but part of the HVAC is on one side of the attic that has ceiling joists 16 inch on center that limits moving big stuff from one side of the attic to the other. I really can't believe that passed code, the code inspector was a stickler on interpreting code in some painful ways, and one would have thought this would have been an issue. Anyway, it was something I was going to correct a few years ago but got in a car accident which cost me 9 months of not being able to do physical work, so the this attic issue got pushed aside....

Thanks again,
Dan

 

[RNeumann]

Air conditioning - Wikipedia

Scroll down to environmental impacts/refrigerant

This is probably what you have given the vintage-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/292175...7290-0%26rvr_id%3D1305637249445&ul_noapp=true

This would be more than you need....2-3x more.

 

[dmccarty]

Air conditioning - Wikipedia

Scroll down to environmental impacts/refrigerant

This is probably what you have given the vintage-

DuPont Suva 134a 3lbs Can Refrigerant (R-134a) Factory Sealed R134a 3LB | eBay

This would be more than you need....2-3x more.

That does put it in perspective!

Thank you!

Later,
Dan

 

[kenmac]

If I had to bet, your leak is in the evap. coil, or accumulator..
The price quoted may not be a bad price. Depends on the size and difficulty of replacement.

Remember. You can have the R22 removed and replaced with R407C as a replacement.

My farm house has 2- 2004 10 seer Trane units (R22 refrigerant) when they go. They will be upgraded to higher SEER units

As for the long run. I have a 2 story house. The unit upstairs is probably a 60 foot run on the refrigerant lines.
Insulating the suction line won't do much good as everything has already taken place in the evap coil. the refrigerant is headed back to the compressor to start the cycle all over again.

You likely have a piston orifice in the old system. I really like TXV's as they monitor refrigerant flow to the evap coil instead of always spewing refrigerant in the coil at the same rate no matter what.

You system has some age and a recp. compressor. you repair the leak today. Tomorrow you replace the compressor. Before you know it, you have put enough in your old unit, you could have bought a new system

Which ever you choose. Good luck

 

[Fallon]

Consumer appliances have a 10 year lifespan in this day & age. So as you start getting towards that age it's wise to start thinking replace vs. repair. Sometimes it's a leaky fitting or cheap part. But if it's any significant part, how close are the rest of the parts in the system to failure.

Manufacturers have gotten disturbingly good at economy engineering. They actually know what the most likely parts to fail are going to be & make sure they are barely beefy enough to make it through the warranty, then die around the 10 year mark.

 

[woody]

we had a similar situation with an old split unit the coil was leaking and the guy told me if he fixed the spot that was leaking the connection closest to it would probably start leaking and may turn into a domino effect so instead of repair just replace, then while checking out something's that I had noticed over time he said since my unit was 13 years old and not a heat pump I would be better off replacing the unit with a package unit do some duct work and save money in the long run. my house has never heated and cooled evenly some rooms would get more flow than others and adjusting the vents helped but now with the new unit and replacing some duct work all vents are open and I have been saving about 20 to 30 dollars a month on my power bill. plus with the warranty I can rest easy for a while. Like some others have said it is probably nearing the end of it's life cycle and will cost more in the long run and then you'll replace it anyway.

 

[LD1]

Just got a cost of $5,800 to replace the condenser and evaporator which seems high to me...

Later,
Dan

HArd to say if that is a good price, cause unless I missed it....I didnt see where you put the tonnage on there.

I was in the same boat at one of my rentals. Units are 20 years old. R-22. Had a unit not working properly and it wouldnt take a charge. (or if it was, it was not building pressure with pump running). The compressor was replaced 2 years prior by a company with a less than stellar reputation.

The compressor being replaced by the "company with less than stellar reputation" was before my ownership of the rental.

Have a friend in the HVAC business. So he is the one I had out trying to charge the unit. He said I'd be better off in the long run replacing with a new unit. As R22 is going to go away, and at this point, he is fearing potentially a damaged pump, and possibly blocked up valves or something. He said he could replace the pump, and start checking for blockages, but no telling how much stuff could have potentially been introduced into the lines when the previous pump failed.

He installed a 3-ton unit, all new lines, and a new A-coil and it was $2400. Dont remember the brand though, but remember it as being something I had heard of before and not junk. Carrier or maybe tempstar?

 

[RNeumann]

we had a similar situation with an old split unit the coil was leaking and the guy told me if he fixed the spot that was leaking the connection closest to it would probably start leaking and may turn into a domino effect so instead of repair just replace, then while checking out something's that I had noticed over time he said since my unit was 13 years old and not a heat pump I would be better off replacing the unit with a package unit do some duct work and save money in the long run. my house has never heated and cooled evenly some rooms would get more flow than others and adjusting the vents helped but now with the new unit and replacing some duct work all vents are open and I have been saving about 20 to 30 dollars a month on my power bill. plus with the warranty I can rest easy for a while. Like some others have said it is probably nearing the end of it's life cycle and will cost more in the long run and then you'll replace it anyway.

This is why replacing to increase efficiency isn't cost effective. At $30/mo it would take 193 months or more than 16 years to break even. Same goes for paying for "top of the line" in efficiency.

 

[woody]

This is why replacing to increase efficiency isn't cost effective. At $30/mo it would take 193 months or more than 16 years to break even. Same goes for paying for "top of the line" in efficiency.

I agree if efficiency is the only reason, but I would not consider replacing a unit that is in good working order for efficiency. now since the op is having issues with his present unit just like I did then there is more to add into the decision making.

 

[RNeumann]

Exactly my point- see post #5. Also reenforces the need to have a good tech/contractor/designer to prevent your first go around with hot and cold spots in the house.

 

[feasant]

check pricing here: Alpine Home Air Products: Contractor-grade furnaces, heaters, air conditioners and indoor-air quality products at wholesale prices.

 

[dmccarty]

HArd to say if that is a good price, cause unless I missed it....I didnt see where you put the tonnage on there.

...

He installed a 3-ton unit, all new lines, and a new A-coil and it was $2400. Dont remember the brand though, but remember it as being something I had heard of before and not junk. Carrier or maybe tempstar?

You did not miss the tonnage, the dummy OP forgot to post the info. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Been a bit distracted since my parents were in the forecast path of Irma and had to leave. Their health is not so good and one is still recovering from heart surgery so having to leave the house was chaotic to say the least. The day they were too leave was going to be the hard bit since it was unlikely how far north they would get and if they would be able to get a hotel room. Thankfully, they were able to make it to the west coast of Florida, got much farther north than I expected, found fuel, AND managed to get a hotel room. :thumbsup: They were able to escape Florida the next day to get to relatives in Alabama.... :thumbsup: Course now they are still under the path of Irma. :shocked: At least it won't be so bad in 'bama, and if it is, they can head to our place. At least they are safe and their house should be which is more than many can say.

Anyway, it is a 3.5 ton unit. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Thanks,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

To everyone who has posted.

Thank you. Your posts are helpful.

We have been lucky weather wise since it has been cool and we don't need the HVAC. Looks like that weather pattern will hold this week though it might be getting to the mid 80's. As long as the humidity is not too bad we should be ok as we get some second opinions and make some decisions.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Sigarms]

<sigh>

I guess it is our turn.

Our 13-14 year old Goodman HVAC system has a leak. The HVAC guy was out today, and since our unit has the older refrigerant, we need to have a new condenser and evaporator. <sigh>

Long story short, the condenser unit is a good 65 foot run to the evaporator which is not efficient but there is not much we can do about it. Will adding more insulation around the refrigerant line help increase the system efficiency?

Thanks,
Dan

The only question I have is who told you 65' decreases the efficiency?

1 - 65' is a drop in the bucket per system capacity loss
2 - Don't know of anyone who can give you the AHRI efficiency rating of a 65' line set run.
3 - My one line set is 76', with a 24' vertical rise, been in for the last 8 years. No complaints on my end.

You're in NC. Code for line sets in NC is 1/2" insulation on the suction line, which is more than adequate IMO.

FYI, I'd charge $6,300 for a base 3.5 ton 14 SEER heat pump (new line set, pad, drain pan, whip, disconnect, primary and secondary float with with new pump), which would include a 10 year factory backed 10 year labor plan on the equipment (any ductwork modifications, pricing would go up). So, is $5,800 high? For the info you've given, I'd say no IM professionl opinion:laughing:

You can always find cheap, a little harder to find people who will take care of you.