Municipal fed cistern system?

[1stDeuce]

My wife and I are preparing our property to start construction of our home, and out buildings, and planning for what we would like.

As we looked for property, we had accepted that we would have a cistern system, since well water is out of the question in this area, and a water tap (membership in water company) was fairly expensive.

Fortunately, the property we bought last year came with a paid tap, so we can hook up to municipal water!

I'm not a "prepper", but I do believe in having a stored cache of potable water.

Our house will be about 350' from the water meter. I am considering running smaller water line (1/2"-3/4") and simply using it to fill an underground cistern. We would then pull water from the cistern with a jet pump, and feed our home and faucets via that pump, not the municipal pressure.

We're already planning to have a grid tied solar system with battery backup, so even with no grid power, we'll have power in the house, and so we'll have water.

I think a 1000 gal cistern would be appropriate. This would provide us with a reservoir of potable water that we can draw from at any time, and a good buffer for high demand water use. It would also be easy to haul in water and fill the cistern in the event the municipal water is interrupted long term, and keeps the cost of our supply piping down.

Interested in hearing if anyone else has a similar setup, and how it's working if so.
Welcome thoughts on a variation of this setup too.
Thanks!

 

[dickfoster]

My wife and I are preparing our property to start construction of our home, and out buildings, and planning for what we would like.

As we looked for property, we had accepted that we would have a cistern system, since well water is out of the question in this area, and a water tap (membership in water company) was fairly expensive.

Fortunately, the property we bought last year came with a paid tap, so we can hook up to municipal water!

I'm not a "prepper", but I do believe in having a stored cache of potable water.

Our house will be about 350' from the water meter. I am considering running smaller water line (1/2"-3/4") and simply using it to fill an underground cistern. We would then pull water from the cistern with a jet pump, and feed our home and faucets via that pump, not the municipal pressure.

We're already planning to have a grid tied solar system with battery backup, so even with no grid power, we'll have power in the house, and so we'll have water.

I think a 1000 gal cistern would be appropriate. This would provide us with a reservoir of potable water that we can draw from at any time, and a good buffer for high demand water use. It would also be easy to haul in water and fill the cistern in the event the municipal water is interrupted long term, and keeps the cost of our supply piping down.

Interested in hearing if anyone else has a similar setup, and how it's working if so.
Welcome thoughts on a variation of this setup too.
Thanks!

I have a well and due to the drought decided to put in tanks. I put in two 2500 gal tanks to feel safe for a week or two but that would be without strict rationing. 1000 gals won't go very far unless you use it strictly for drinking and cooking and forget showers, flushing toilets, doing laundry etc. I put the tanks above ground and uphill from the house so in case there is no power and the generator is down I still have some water pressure to the house. About 10 PSI which is enough to flush toilets, take navy showers, run the dish and clothes washer etc.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Consider this: Use 1" line (not a great deal extra cost from 1/2-3/4) to feed your whole house system. Put in bypass valve system so you can fill your cistern but then use direct pressure to feed your house as long as you have water from municipality. Use your pump only in emergency which will save wear and tear on the pump plus save electricity cost.

 

[boggen]

with others, place tank up higher, for gravity feeding water back down into the house. and also upside pipe from tank that feeds house.

smaller pipes = more friction, more friction = more pressure to over come friction, more pressure used to take care of friction = less actual pressure at sinks and like.

you are more likely to find 12v on demand sprayer pump (has built in pressure switch), to might offer enough GPM with pressure for some needs. (think of a RV / motor home) have water tanks on them and use a small 12v pump that is on demand (turns on/off) as it senses pressure. for sink / shower.

there extra's that comes with cistern, and that is "cleaning it out" and needing drain, a way to get in it with something to clean it / scrub it possibly. keep the sun off of it, possibly have some sort of "auto fill valve" on it. all of what needs to be rated for possible ice'ing up in winter. to repair and replace. including accessable check valves, and various valves.

 

[1stDeuce]

1000 gals won't go very far unless you use it strictly for drinking and cooking and forget showers, flushing toilets, doing laundry etc.

Wow, you're using 2500 gallons a WEEK??? Are you irrigating crop land? That's 10,000 gallons a month... No wonder California is in a drought!

My wife and I have yet to see a water bill over ~2500 gallons in a MONTH at the houses we've rented. That was with a traditional washing machine... We're putting a front load in the new place, which will use quite a bit less water.

Putting the cistern above the house would be a great idea, but not possible on our property.

 

[1stDeuce]

Consider this: Use 1" line (not a great deal extra cost from 1/2-3/4) to feed your whole house system. Put in bypass valve system so you can fill your cistern but then use direct pressure to feed your house as long as you have water from municipality. Use your pump only in emergency which will save wear and tear on the pump plus save electricity cost.

I thought of this too. Basically making the cistern an emergency use only source. BUT that lets the water in it get pretty stale, and requires monitoring of the water, freshening at times, etc. I'm thinking if I run it as a constant source/exchange, the water in it will be much better quality at all times.

If cost isn't much different, I may run a larger hose just so if my cistern idea doesn't work out, I can fall back on direct feed. I may direct feed the garage (apartment above) and perhaps a few yard faucets too. Leave the cistern just feeding the house. ??

 

[1stDeuce]

Ryan, thanks for the thoughts. I'm not worried about the size of the feed to the cistern because it'll be able to keep up by just flowing longer from the municipal source. I'll feed the house and spigots with larger pipe of course, supplied by the pump, so plenty of flow at point of use.

I am not interested in a 12v emergency system. I'll have a whole house sized inverter that will be more than capable of running a standard 120v cistern pump. I'll also put in valving so that I can direct feed the house if needed, or shut off flow to the cistern in the event our municipal water has a "do not use" advisory.

Using municipal water directly with a float switch, I should not need to clean out the cistern at all. I won't be introducing any debris, because I won't be opening it at all, unless I have to. Not like a rainwater cistern, where junk can get in. Not much junk coming out your kitchen faucet, right?

It will be buried, so no sun or freezing worries.

 

[dickfoster]

Wow, you're using 2500 gallons a WEEK??? Are you irrigating crop land? That's 10,000 gallons a month... No wonder California is in a drought!

My wife and I have yet to see a water bill over ~2500 gallons in a MONTH at the houses we've rented. That was with a traditional washing machine... We're putting a front load in the new place, which will use quite a bit less water.

Putting the cistern above the house would be a great idea, but not possible on our property.

Well maybe not two weeks but a couple of months unless I water the landscape. The real reason I chose 5000 gals is because if you buy water around here they charge you for 4000 gallons whether or not you take it all. Another reason was for fire since you can't fight much of a fire with a well pump but a fire truck tapping into 5000 gallons might get something useful accomplished.

 

[justinramani]

This seems like an awful lot of work when you could just connect to the water main and be done with it. As stated earlier, maybe have a bypass and tanks for an emergency situation.....

 

[dmccarty]

...I put in two 2500 gal tanks to feel safe for a week or two but that would be without strict rationing. 1000 gals won't go very far unless you use it strictly for drinking and cooking and forget showers, flushing toilets, doing laundry etc....

Water usage depends on how much the appliances use and well as faucet and shower/bath flow. I figure the four of us use 200 gallons per day at most. That includes washing clothes, dishes and humans.

We were on a boat for two weeks last year and the boat had 300 galls of water storage. There were three of us on the boat and we used around 1,000 gallons in those two weeks. We did do a couple loads of clothes and the toilets used fresh water to flush. Most of the clothes washing we had done in a laundry at one port. We were not trying to conserve water so we could have done better if we had wanted to try.

Later,
Dan

 

[boggen]

seems like hefty cost. then using a pump to get pressure, maintenance nightmare (actual repairs, then actual yearly cost of repairs / up keep) vs just relying on pressure already created by local water company.

if you were in a "dry hot climate" say texas for example. ya ok, and dealing with rain water and like. but colorado?

if you had a well. ya a well tank, that is just something wells need normally.

if you wanted it for emergency situation. ok i will bite.

i think you will come to find out (long term) crud will build up in the bottom of the tank. it will be acting as a "settling chamber filter" water will have a very long "dwell time" allowing stuff to fall out of the water and down into the bottom. you will accumulate crud in the bottom of the tank. and there is good chance you will accumulate "surface crud" on the surface of the water. good example would be aquariums as the water evaporates you end up getting a "scum line" around the glass. or a kitchen sink do a bunch of dishes you same water. then do not let it drain for a couple hours. then drain, you should for sure see a scum layer were the water level was. this scum layer will end up within the tank.

along with "boil orders" that get sent out when something happens to piping and needs fix for local water company.

you say you are going to bury it, but a float valve? ya ok i will bite, if it was only to fill tank. so you do not have to be around non stop making sure you do not overfill it. the couple float valves i can think of. say for example a septic tank pump (float switch on a cord), might work. but yo still need to bring a pipe large enough for float valve up above ground, and insert a "well screen" or like structure. so the tank can breath. and allow air in/out as the tank fills up / empties. this pipe will most likely need to stick straight up out of ground from were tank is buried.

float valves do fail. "toilet floats" in the tanks are good enough example of that. from pond to aquarium to tanks. float valves will fail. and either fail open and over flow, or stay shut, or more than likely leak constantly.

a set it up and leave it and forget it "shakes head no" it does not happen.

yes, attempting to talk ya to put it above ground. much better so you can access it, clean it, drain it, repair it. if it was rain water, and just using to flush toilet, and/or water garden / grass, ya ok. no biggie. but for drinking water / sink water / shower water. it be a different story, due to needing to keep things cleaned.

===========
if you are just wanting more "GPM" for say multiple head shower, or wanting more GPM for a sink running, toilet running, someone taking a shower all at the same time. i would think just getting a couple extra well tanks. would be far much more cheaper, and much easier to install, and easier on the pocket book long term. the well tanks would help deal with sudden usage.

 

[1stDeuce]

Well maybe not two weeks but a couple of months unless I water the landscape. The real reason I chose 5000 gals is because if you buy water around here they charge you for 4000 gallons whether or not you take it all. Another reason was for fire since you can't fight much of a fire with a well pump but a fire truck tapping into 5000 gallons might get something useful accomplished.

Ah, having a reservoir for firefighting is another good reason. Our place will be in prime wildfire territory. There is a hydrant at the road, but its also pump fed, and there's no backup gen, so if the fire takes out the power, it also takes out the water.

And of I just wanted to hook up to the water and "be done with it" i wouldn't have posted in the first place. This is the wild west, and I prefer to be at least minimally prepared for whatever might happen.

 

[dadster4]

Well maybe not two weeks but a couple of months unless I water the landscape. The real reason I chose 5000 gals is because if you buy water around here they charge you for 4000 gallons whether or not you take it all. Another reason was for fire since you can't fight much of a fire with a well pump but a fire truck tapping into 5000 gallons might get something useful accomplished.

That is enough water to supply about 5 minutes of fire hose time...better be a small fire!

 

[1stDeuce]

So basically, many of y'all's advice is "don't do it, just be a sheeple and use the municipal water supply because it's easier." It appears almost none of you are actually on a cistern, or know that S/W Colorado is pretty hot and dry, comparable to a lot of central Texas, Arizona, Utah, etc.

I appreciate your concerns with my plan, but I'm just not comfortable relying on a system that goes down, and is likely to do so at the worst times possible. This isn't a big city water system, it's a very rural system, that gets about 10th priority when something goes wrong.

I suppose I may get a little bit of silt or sediment accumulation in the bottom over the long term, but FAR less than a cistern that's refilled manually I would think. Just so those of you unfamiliar with cisterns know, they are VERY common in this area, since well water is no good, and municipal water is rarely available outside a town. (Our sub is lucky to have it!) There are very reliable float valves, and pumps that are made for cistern systems, so there will be no need to "rig" anything.

Burying the cistern keeps it out of the sun, away from critters, and protected from damage. It's standard practice for a drinking water cistern.


Dickfoster, how have you identified your water as available to the FD? I suppose just telling them might be enough if it's rural... I know 1000 or even 5000 gallons isn't a lot when fighting building fires, but when suppressing wildfires, it can go a long way. Many of those rigs only carry 2-300 gallons. A really big wildfire truck might have 500 gallons, but that would be huge.

Is anyone actually on a cistern that can speak to how often you have to clean it out? I haven't heard much about cleaning them, so I was figuring it was very infrequently needed...
Thanks for the input!!

 

[dickfoster]

Ah, having a reservoir for firefighting is another good reason. Our place will be in prime wildfire territory. There is a hydrant at the road, but its also pump fed, and there's no backup gen, so if the fire takes out the power, it also takes out the water.

And of I just wanted to hook up to the water and "be done with it" i wouldn't have posted in the first place. This is the wold west, and I prefer to be at least minimally prepared for whatever might happen.

Well power usually goes out with a wild fire ergo part of my reason for putting in the tanks. Another thought some are suggesting you pressure the tank with local water pressure however that poses a couple of problems. Most plastic tanks cannot be operated under pressure so you're looking at a small pump to provide household water pressure. Secondly if the muni water goes out there goes your pressure along with it so again you're back where you started. I have a small 1/2 HP well pump in my tank and it's quite enough to supply the house with 60 PSI since there is no lift involved. Well pumps are also very reliable and made to last. I fill the tank with a level controlled well pump that's down in the well then use a pressure switch to control the pump in the tank. You'd be one pump less if you used the muni system to keep the tank topped up but that should be controlled via a float control of some sort.

 

[dickfoster]

So basically, many of y'all's advice is "don't do it, just be a sheeple and use the municipal water supply because it's easier." It appears almost none of you are actually on a cistern, or know that S/W Colorado is pretty hot and dry, comparable to a lot of central Texas, Arizona, Utah, etc.

I appreciate your concerns with my plan, but I'm just not comfortable relying on a system that goes down, and can is likely to do so at the worst times possible. This isn't a big city water system, it's a very rural system, that gets about 10th priority when something goes wrong.

I suppose I may get a little bit of silt or sediment accumulation in the bottom over the long term, but FAR less than a cistern that's refilled manually I would think. Just so those of you unfamiliar with cisterns know, they are VERY common in this area, since well water is no good, and municipal water is rarely available outside a town. (Our sub is lucky to have it!) There are very reliable float valves, and pumps that are made for cistern systems, so there will be no need to "rig" anything.

Burying the cistern keeps it out of the sun, away from critters, and protected from damage. It's standard practice for a drinking water cistern.


Dickfoster, how have you identified your water as available to the FD? I suppose just telling them might be enough if it's rural... I know 1000 or even 5000 gallons isn't a lot when fighting building fires, but when suppressing wildfires, it can go a long way. Many of those rigs only carry 2-300 gallons. A really big wildfire truck might have 500 gallons, but that would be huge.

Is anyone actually on a cistern that can speak to how often you have to clean it out? I haven't heard much about cleaning them, so I was figuring it was very infrequently needed...
Thanks for the input!!

I have a sign alongside the road where the tanks are and I made sure there was easy access from the road and installed a fire hose type connection for them to use.

There are signs up and down the road I live on that shows where all the fire hose connections are located.

Warning, those brass fire hose type valves are not cheap but quite cheap enough compared to the house burning down for lack of it. Check with your local FD as to what's acceptable as most fire trucks carry a few adapters so check with them. I remember mine was on the order of 400 bucks or so all told with the covers and such.

 

[1stDeuce]

Thanks for the info Dickfoster. I was aware that I'd need a float, as a cistern is not a pressure tank, only a holding tank. I'll have a 1/2hp cistern pump just like you, supplying a pressure tank in the garage, and that will provide pressure to both the garage apartment and the house. (The garage/apt will be built this year, house next year...)

I'm figuring I'll put a high volume outlet of some sort just outside the garage. I have a 200 gallon brush fire trailer that I could then refill fairly quickly from the 20gpm 1/2hp pump. Pressure in the house might suffer while I'm filling, but if I need a fast fill, I won't care at all about pressure in the house. I'll probably also have a suction stand that the FD can use, and since I'm planning to be part of the local volunteer fire dept, it should be easy to relay it's location.

So you're putting well water in your cisterns... Do you do any treatment, like chlorination, or just add to one cistern and pump from the other? Any noticeable issue with "stale" water?

 

[scdeerslayer]

So if you use a cistern like the OP describes, what happens when you have a boil water advisory? Drain the entire cistern, flush the lines, and fill it back up after the advisory is over? That would be my biggest concern. I don't plan on ever being on municipal water though.

 

[Streetcar]

With muncipal supply the debris build up should be minimal.
It seems to be easier and cheaper to primarily run municipal and use cistern as backup.
Install bypass that you can renew cistern water a couple of days a month.
I have never had boil water advisory . They are usually from a major break in a isolated part of the system

 

[1stDeuce]

Yeah, if we got a boil water advisory and I didn't think I was able to shut off water in time, we would probably over-chlorinate the cistern. But my thought was that we use so little water that we'd just shut it off when things went south, and then purge the feed line once they OK'd the water, before opening the cistern fill valve.

While the cistern really is "backup" for the municipal system, I am still pretty sure I'd prefer the cistern water be part of the everyday system, rather than relying on municipal water all the time for pressure, and hoping my "backup" system works when I need it, and that the water is OK...