Well Drilled - Results

[Valveman]

Interesting, I didn't know that. So if the pump is a 480 feet which is 260 feet below the water level (220 feet static), the pump will act like it's in 260 feet of water.

So the water acts like pressure booster?

Another way to explain it is that water under other water doesn't weigh anything. So until the pump lifts water above the static or pumping level of the well it doesn't see any head or lift. Any pump will add what pressure it can make to the pressure coming into the pump. So a static of 220' will add 95 PSI to the pressure the pump can produce.

Sorry Goose, you beat me to it. Funny how brilliant minds think alike.

 

[Pettrix]

Another way to explain it is that water under other water doesn't weigh anything. So until the pump lifts water above the static or pumping level of the well it doesn't see any head or lift. Any pump will add what pressure it can make to the pressure coming into the pump. So a static of 220' will add 95 PSI to the pressure the pump can produce.

Sorry Goose, you beat me to it. Funny how brilliant minds think alike.

So would this make the pump not work as hard?

 

[Richard]

Would a 3HP or 5HP pump be better with my well depth?

My two options:
3HP Goulds 3 phase pump OR a 5HP Gould 3 phase pump.

The pump installer wants to use a #10 wire for the 480 feet depth but can install a #8 wire but will upcharge another $400 for the thicker wire.

The pump installer also said that he wants to use 1.25" SCH 40 galvanized pipe for the last 380 feet due to the weight, depth and power of the pump. The first 100 feet from the pump level will be SCH 120 PVC pipe to prevent electrolysis.

My concern is will galvanized pipe rust?

I'm no expert so discount my thoughts a bit...

My well is something like 300/400 feet down. I have something like 90' of water above my pump (my pump is around 10 feet off the bottom)

I'm told my flow rate is about 103/107 gallons/minute. Seems when he was 'filling his little bucket' the bucket almost got washed away.

Anyways, today, 15 years later.... I've developed some "gee, why didn't I do..." thoughts

First is, I wish when I found out about this, I had been told of options before the pump went in. I would have liked a bigger pump to provide more water as my wife wanted to install an irrigation system (which we've done)

I've also thought it might have been intersting to install two pumps. (I don't know if that is possible)

Put my drinking pump down deep. Higher up, put the second pump for the irrigation, house (outdoor) spigots.

I did take some advantage of the larger flow....ripped out all the 1/2" copper pipes to the downstairs shower, replaced them with 3/4", both hot and cold. Bought 3/4" valving for the shower. The sales girl laughed and asked if I was building a car wash.

It is an absolutely fantastic shower!!!

When the shower is on, it will diminish the power of the upstairs shower (2 floors up) and the kitchen (1 floor up)

When you are in there, you don't care!!!

Wife is concerned about using all this water and "being wasteful"

I told her another way to look at it is, each minute, we evidently have 100 gallons of water presented to us so, for each gallon that we DON'T use (and inject back into the ground via our septic), is a gallon that we've let flow by and therefore wasted!!

She wasn't sure how to respond to that.

I say, if you have the flow, find some way to have the ability to utilize it.

 

[TheGoose]

Pumps work the hardest when they are moving a large amount of water. When you increase the pressure the amount of water being moved goes down and thus the pump is actually working less hard.

So would this make the pump not work as hard?

 

[teejk]

I'm no expert so discount my thoughts a bit...

My well is something like 300/400 feet down. I have something like 90' of water above my pump (my pump is around 10 feet off the bottom)

I'm told my flow rate is about 103/107 gallons/minute. Seems when he was 'filling his little bucket' the bucket almost got washed away.

Anyways, today, 15 years later.... I've developed some "gee, why didn't I do..." thoughts

First is, I wish when I found out about this, I had been told of options before the pump went in. I would have liked a bigger pump to provide more water as my wife wanted to install an irrigation system (which we've done)

I've also thought it might have been intersting to install two pumps. (I don't know if that is possible)

Put my drinking pump down deep. Higher up, put the second pump for the irrigation, house (outdoor) spigots.

I did take some advantage of the larger flow....ripped out all the 1/2" copper pipes to the downstairs shower, replaced them with 3/4", both hot and cold. Bought 3/4" valving for the shower. The sales girl laughed and asked if I was building a car wash.

It is an absolutely fantastic shower!!!

When the shower is on, it will diminish the power of the upstairs shower (2 floors up) and the kitchen (1 floor up)

When you are in there, you don't care!!!

Wife is concerned about using all this water and "being wasteful"

I told her another way to look at it is, each minute, we evidently have 100 gallons of water presented to us so, for each gallon that we DON'T use (and inject back into the ground via our septic), is a gallon that we've let flow by and therefore wasted!!

She wasn't sure how to respond to that.

I say, if you have the flow, find some way to have the ability to utilize it.

You are still limited by the fittings/fixtures once that water is in your pressure tank (pressure delivered by your pump). I think plumbing code mandates 3/4" until you tap off to a single fixture (an exception for toilets I think). Then the typical faucet/shower head/whatever probably drops to 3/8". Water being water it will push...constricted at the end creates the high pressure. We have a few pros here that can correct me but I think typical wells use 2" or less pipe from the pump to the pressure tank.

 

[Valveman]

I'm no expert so discount my thoughts a bit...

My well is something like 300/400 feet down. I have something like 90' of water above my pump (my pump is around 10 feet off the bottom)

I'm told my flow rate is about 103/107 gallons/minute. Seems when he was 'filling his little bucket' the bucket almost got washed away.

Anyways, today, 15 years later.... I've developed some "gee, why didn't I do..." thoughts

First is, I wish when I found out about this, I had been told of options before the pump went in. I would have liked a bigger pump to provide more water as my wife wanted to install an irrigation system (which we've done)

I've also thought it might have been intersting to install two pumps. (I don't know if that is possible)

Put my drinking pump down deep. Higher up, put the second pump for the irrigation, house (outdoor) spigots.

I did take some advantage of the larger flow....ripped out all the 1/2" copper pipes to the downstairs shower, replaced them with 3/4", both hot and cold. Bought 3/4" valving for the shower. The sales girl laughed and asked if I was building a car wash.

It is an absolutely fantastic shower!!!

When the shower is on, it will diminish the power of the upstairs shower (2 floors up) and the kitchen (1 floor up)

When you are in there, you don't care!!!

Wife is concerned about using all this water and "being wasteful"

I told her another way to look at it is, each minute, we evidently have 100 gallons of water presented to us so, for each gallon that we DON'T use (and inject back into the ground via our septic), is a gallon that we've let flow by and therefore wasted!!

She wasn't sure how to respond to that.

I say, if you have the flow, find some way to have the ability to utilize it.

I am guessing your well tested at 103 GPM, but they put in a much smaller pump like 10 GPM? If you had a 100 GPM pump you could run 50 showers at a time or irrigate a golf course. With a good producing well like that you should size the pump to your maximum demand, which is usually the irrigation. Then you can use something like a constant pressure valve or CSV to make a large pump work like a small one when a single shower or sprinkler is all that you need to run.

 

[Qapla]

Of course, at 10 gpm, though you could irrigate a golf course, it would take a very long time to do so since a home rotor comes standard with a 3gpm nozzle and those used on golf courses generally use quite a bit more.. We prefer to have more along the lines of 20-25 gpm for a standard home irrigation system that we plumb with 1" Mainline. I would want to use more like a 2" TO 3" mainline, and that would deliver more along that lines of 55-140 gpm

But then, you can get a 1.4 hp 4" submersible pump that will produce 25 gpm.

When using water in the house, especially something like a shower that has water conserving head, the pump could cycle and you would never notice it as long as it is a slow/normal cycle. Irrigation, on the other hand, is a different situation. You want the pump to run constant the entire time the irrigation system is running. That is why the irrigation zones are designed to use close to the production of the well at 40 psi.

All said, a Cycle Stop Valve (CSV) is a good idea/investment for either/both especially when the same pump is running both - sometimes at the same time.

 

[Pettrix]

I was told by a few well installers in my area that depending on the well pump design a CSV can hurt the pump since a CSV creates backpressure. It's like driving a vehicle with the gas and brake pedal both pressed at the same time. A CSV is just a mechanical switch that creates backpressure in the line and in the well pump motor.

It all depends on who you talk to and what their "agenda" can be. Those selling CSV's claim they are the best thing out there while those selling VFD's don't sell or install CSV's.

I believe the TRUTH is somewhere in the middle. CSV's can and do work but can damage certain pumps and can damage PVC drop pipe and VFD's can and do work and have a place in residential applications where short cycling damages non-VFD pumps. Commercial or agricultural applications are a different animal and they basically just need a pump that turns on and stays on for a long time and puts out high GPMs.

Residential use is totally different. Water is needed every so often so a VFD does a better job with soft starting/soft stopping and keeps pressure at 60psi without causing issues. A standard "non thinking" well pump just knows ON/OFF and when it turns on it creates a lot of torque and when it shuts down it's also harsh. Short cycling a non_VFD well pump shortens its life and your PVC plumbing pipes take a beating in the well.

 

[Valveman]

Like TheGoose said, backpressure on a pump makes it work easier, not harder. Any pump installer who doesn't understand this simple fact has no business installing something as complicated and confusing as a VFD. You should run away screaming from anyone who says it is like driving a car with one foot on the brake and one on the gas. They have NO IDEA what they are talking about. A pump does not have pistons like a car engine, and restricting the flow makes the pumps work easier as we have said.

After studying electrical engineering I started with VFD's back in the 80's. I discovered that I had been lied too, as they actually increase energy consumption, not decrease energy consumption as I was told. After having multiple problems with all the VFD's I had installed, I figured out a way to do the same thing with a simple and dependable valve. In 1993 I replaced every VFD I had installed with a CSV, and have never looked back. They keep claiming that the newest version of VFD's has solved all the problem of the past. This is the same thing they were saying 25 years ago. And although they have gotten better at BandAiding some of the problems of VFD's, they will never be able to solve them. There are many inherent problems with varying the speed of a pump, and mother nature will never let this change.

That being said there are some good applications for VFD's, just not with pumps that have centrifugal impellers. I have a VFD on some plastic injection machines that work very well. However, I have to keep the cabinet doors open and an air conditioner pointed at the VFD to keep it from tripping out on overheat. Most plastic injection machines now use servos instead of VFD's because they have had these problems with VFD's.

A VFD does not do a better job on residential or any application. The soft start doesn't help much when you have a CSV or VFD and the pump is not starting repeatedly anyway. Plus the CSV does a mechanical soft start, which works as well as any electrical soft start. The CSV makes the pump start and stop at minimum flow, which takes out all the water hammer and is the opposite of "harsh".

Don't get me wrong. I like it when people use VFD's on their well and booster pumps. It gets them use to constant pressure and really small pressure tanks. Then after they realize the VFD is not saving energy and is costing a lot to maintain, they start looking for an alternative, which is the CSV. The biggest part of my business is replacing VFD's, as I did the ones I had installed back in the 80's and early 90's. The more VFD's people install, the more there are for me to replace.

 

[TheGoose]

There is some information trickling out that some of the newer pumps are not lasting as well when throttled back by either a CSV or a dole valve due to the way the impellers are designed (floating stack vs other designs). Cary (valveman, owner of CSV) can give you more information. I primarily use Goulds pumps but I usually do not use either CSV's or VFD's but I would not hesitate to use a CSV and actually have one on one of my personal wells with a 20 gallon bladder tank. Works as advertised. I'm not a big believer in constant pressure as I personally cannot tell you when the pressure swings from the cut on a 40 to the cut out at 60 but some people can I guess.

My own personal belief is that VFD's are a computer and the main reason I am against them is I do not think they can hold up to the Texas heat (95-100 deg F air temp and up to 120 deg + if in sunlight). Your cellphone will overheat in a hot car but somehow a VFD is supposed to last?

I worked in a large industrial facility with VFD's on several hundred horsepower motors for fan speed and we had to add an A/C to the VFD room and still had problems.

I was told by a few well installers in my area that depending on the well pump design a CSV can hurt the pump since a CSV creates backpressure. It's like driving a vehicle with the gas and brake pedal both pressed at the same time. A CSV is just a mechanical switch that creates backpressure in the line and in the well pump motor.

It all depends on who you talk to and what their "agenda" can be. Those selling CSV's claim they are the best thing out there while those selling VFD's don't sell or install CSV's.

I believe the TRUTH is somewhere in the middle. CSV's can and do work but can damage certain pumps and can damage PVC drop pipe and VFD's can and do work and have a place in residential applications where short cycling damages non-VFD pumps. Commercial or agricultural applications are a different animal and they basically just need a pump that turns on and stays on for a long time and puts out high GPMs.

Residential use is totally different. Water is needed every so often so a VFD does a better job with soft starting/soft stopping and keeps pressure at 60psi without causing issues. A standard "non thinking" well pump just knows ON/OFF and when it turns on it creates a lot of torque and when it shuts down it's also harsh. Short cycling a non_VFD well pump shortens its life and your PVC plumbing pipes take a beating in the well.

 

[LittleBill21]

man i thought i understood my well, i have learned a ton so far,

valveman and goose, if you don't mind can you either provide a link or a dumb down answer as to why back pressure is easier on the pump then a high flow rate on a lower pressure?

 

[the old grind]

To better understand the pressure/power confusion consider your vacuum cleaner with hose connected to 'blow'. When you plug the hose (deadheading it) the motor revs higher due to the reduced o'all load while maintaining output pressure. Open it again and you can hear rpm drop when moving more 'fluid'.

We also must remember that as water seeks it own level a deeper casing just allows more to enter, and at pressure for depth as draw down lowers that in the casing. Draw down will influence how deep pump should be, but pump 'sees' mostly head to tank and only needs to remain submerged during peak usage/draw down. Setting it unnecessarily lower won't increase output or pressure, and means moving a larger 'column' (volume/mass) going to tank. Example: FIL's 270' well, static level at ~30', 1 1/2 hp pump at 80', hydrant above wellhead ('before' tank) and with two 'chick-chick' sprinklers shooting 30'+ arcs you'd never know they were running when filling the washing machine. (time to fill nearly the same)

Goose and valveman, you well guys are way ahead of us non-pros (plumbing contractors here, btw) and we're all getting a much-appreciated lesson. I agree that while VFDs can have many benefits, use on small residential well pumps are tough to justify. On our shop machines they can do much for low hp motors with heavy starting loads and particular rpm needs, but otherwise are just a way to expand markets/applications for such bling. Saving energy with them makes sense as hp goes way up, but is surely pie in the sky at < a dozen hp. (IMO, whole-house tankless water heater efficency/convenience are also over-promoted for similar reasons, ie sales) Worth the $$ and complication? NOT.

It's easy to over-think such an installation, but easy to goof up too. I'd say anyone going from shallow well or jet pump to a submersible will be so tickled with the increased volume pressure they'll think they did everything right. If they fell short of goal (GPM/draw down) resetting a pump deeper shouldn't too big a chore.

btw, My shallow well pump/tank and WH stay well ahead of my eco showerheads, but using a hose outdoors is a joke. Looking forward to it's demise and going submersible as a step between that and 2" gas pump with 1 1/2" fire hose to water lawn etc.

 

[Valveman]

man i thought i understood my well, i have learned a ton so far,

valveman and goose, if you don't mind can you either provide a link or a dumb down answer as to why back pressure is easier on the pump then a high flow rate on a lower pressure?

It is hard to explain because it is counter intuitive. 30 years ago I also thought it was hard on a pump to throttle it back with a valve. I had to learn differently myself. Actual pump curves are the best way to see that as the discharge rate of a pump is reduced, the amps or horsepower reduce as well. You would think it would go the other way, but it doesn't. But don't feel alone. I have to explain this at least 10 times a day, and many times it is to "pump engineers", as many of them do not understand it either.

I will see if I can post a picture of a pump curve, so you can see what I am talking about. Here is a curve of a pump that uses 15HP to pump 300 GPM, but drops to 6HP at about 5 GPM and the RPM of the pump stays the same, it is simply being restricted with a valve.

 

[Valveman]

There is some information trickling out that some of the newer pumps are not lasting as well when throttled back by either a CSV or a dole valve due to the way the impellers are designed (floating stack vs other designs). Cary (valveman, owner of CSV) can give you more information. I primarily use Goulds pumps but I usually do not use either CSV's or VFD's but I would not hesitate to use a CSV and actually have one on one of my personal wells with a 20 gallon bladder tank. Works as advertised. I'm not a big believer in constant pressure as I personally cannot tell you when the pressure swings from the cut on a 40 to the cut out at 60 but some people can I guess.

My own personal belief is that VFD's are a computer and the main reason I am against them is I do not think they can hold up to the Texas heat (95-100 deg F air temp and up to 120 deg + if in sunlight). Your cellphone will overheat in a hot car but somehow a VFD is supposed to last?

I worked in a large industrial facility with VFD's on several hundred horsepower motors for fan speed and we had to add an A/C to the VFD room and still had problems.

Pentair, which makes the same pump under many different names like Sta-Rite, Myers, and Flo-Tec, have had "floating stage" pumps for many years. We have been using CSV's with these for decades and have never had a problem. Goulds does not have "floating stage" type pumps and they work well with CSV't the same as Grundfos and many other brands.

The pumps in question are made by Franklin. They have recently changed their design from the old Jacuzzi, which they bought out to go in to the pump business. They are now making a "floating stage" type impeller. These impellers actually drag the diffuser below each impeller. As with the Pentair pumps, these dragging impellers are suppose to be made of Delrin type plastic, that is self lubricating. But apparently the Franklin impellers are not as good as the Pentair.

We have never had any problems with the Pentair "floating stage" pumps. And we have yet to see any problems with the new Franklin design. However, Franklin is saying their pumps can no longer handle the restriction of a CSV or even just a Dole valve or ball valve. I am not sure the Franklin pumps would have a problem with the CSV, I think Franklin just has a problem with the CSV. Franklin just doesn't like the fact that the CSV makes pumps last longer, allows the use of smaller pressure tanks, and does away with the need for VFD's, which is their most profitable item. They may have even designed their new pumps so they will not work with CSV's on purpose. If they did these pumps are also not going to work with Dole Valves or even just running at low flow rates. But I would not put it past them to design a pump that would not work with a CSV, just to be able to maintain their planned obsolescence. Either way, until we know more about it, I am suggesting the use of any other brand pump besides Franklin. Franklin has made many changes over the years to further shorten the life span of their pumps, and I am sure this last change is no different.

 

[the old grind]

Pulled a pump last year and ground the SS case open to see what 'went South'. Plates/impellers were of a hard clear plastic that looked/felt like polystyrene or acetate. Couldn't tell if either were 'floating' as they were cracked and crumbled too much to tell and pieces just sloshed around. No guess what might have caused the damage, and no grit or foreign matter found anywhere in the system.

We have been alerted recently that we are at the edge of a large area (MI's Thumb and below) where arsenic (IIRC) is common in ground water. Dissolved lime is a given in MI, but more of a prob on fixtures/surfaces that in pumps, tanks, valves or other bits we service.

Are diffused chemicals/gases a whole 'nother can of worms to deal with when choosing a pump?

 

[Egon]

man i thought i understood my well, i have learned a ton so far,

valveman and goose, if you don't mind can you either provide a link or a dumb down answer as to why back pressure is easier on the pump then a high flow rate on a lower pressure?

It is all about how much work the pump is doing. Increasing the amount of flow means more work has been done.

Increasing outlet pressure to reduce flow does not apply to positive displacement pumps.

 

[Valveman]

Pulled a pump last year and ground the SS case open to see what 'went South'. Plates/impellers were of a hard clear plastic that looked/felt like polystyrene or acetate. Couldn't tell if either were 'floating' as they were cracked and crumbled too much to tell and pieces just sloshed around. No guess what might have caused the damage, and no grit or foreign matter found anywhere in the system.

We have been alerted recently that we are at the edge of a large area (MI's Thumb and below) where arsenic (IIRC) is common in ground water. Dissolved lime is a given in MI, but more of a prob on fixtures/surfaces that in pumps, tanks, valves or other bits we service.

Are diffused chemicals/gases a whole 'nother can of worms to deal with when choosing a pump?

We have arsenic in our water as well, but I have never seen it cause problems to a pump. Those plastic and Stainless Steel pumps should not have problems with chemicals. Impellers coming apart like that are usually from an upthrust problem or maybe pumping some air, which will mess up the top of the impellers. Lack of flow usually takes out the bottom side of the impellers.

 

[bigdeano]

Pump cycling and changes in pressure can cause problems like changes in shower temperature. I put in a pressure regulator after the pressure tank to supply a constant 40 psi as the tank varies between 40 and 60. Be sure to use a regulator which allows water to go back to the tank if the pressure gets too high, as from thermal expansion.

 

[Valveman]

Pump cycling and changes in pressure can cause problems like changes in shower temperature. I put in a pressure regulator after the pressure tank to supply a constant 40 psi as the tank varies between 40 and 60. Be sure to use a regulator which allows water to go back to the tank if the pressure gets too high, as from thermal expansion.

That is sort of how a CSV works. However, with a pressure regulator after the pressure tank you are only getting a constant 40 PSI to the shower, while the pump is still continually cycling on and off between 40 and 60.

A CSV installed prior to the pressure tank keeps a constant 50 or 55 PSI to the shower, while at the same time it is keeping the pump running steady and eliminates the cycling.

 

[hawkeye08]

I would like to learn more about the CSV installation and if it makes sense for my situation. I don't want to hijack this thread, where can I find some good information to get me started? Thanks.