Is it time for a gasoline engine tractor?

[GManBart]

Typical use of CUT tractors is light duty . Even if it was medium or heavy duty so what . Rare is the CUT that is used more than 200hrs a year.

There is no definition of "light duty" as it relates to CUTs, so you're just making up a term with no meaning.

It's not how many hours per year and it's not that they sometimes run at low power settings. It's that they are rated to run at rated power indefinitely.

 

[buickanddeere]

Why do you insist on repeating things that are wrong? The national average price for regular unleaded and diesel are within a penny or two of one another, and have been that way for a year.

Crude price isn't the only factor in the price of fuel, and a rise in crude price alone won't make diesel instantly more expensive than unleaded. Diesel refineries had to repay billions in upgrades to comply with ULSD standards....that's paid off. Demand for diesel has been at unprecedented rates. Other countries are starting to refine diesel, and that will increase worldwide supply, which will keep the price low.

In short, pretty much everything other than your personal opinion points to diesel continuing to be similar priced to unleaded, and lower in many places. This station isn't losing money, and I'm pretty sure they don't have a sweetheart deal on the price of diesel:

Probably becuase some people have conveniently forgotten diesel being higher priced than gasoline from 2006 to 2015. How does the past year with low crude prices and diesel over production makeup for the past 9 years. ULSD and Tier V emissions are not going away.

Why are some people so offended with the notion there is a niche market for gas engines because tier IV and Tier V has made a small diesel in light duty applications less practical?

 

[buickanddeere]

There is no definition of "light duty" as it relates to CUTs, so you're just making up a term with no meaning.

It's not how many hours per year and it's not that they sometimes run at low power settings. It's that they are rated to run at rated power indefinitely.

Gas engines in tractors manufactured up to the mid 1970's and LP or Natural Gas engines to this day operate continuous full power and full rated rpms .
A CUT does not get used with as high of a duty cycle as Big Time Operator chisel ploughing 18hrs a day for two weeks. CUT spend thier time in a lighter duty cycle with short duty , start, stop operation that does not fully heat up the engine and exhaust treatment system.

 

[GManBart]

Probably becuase some people have conveniently forgotten diesel being higher priced than gasoline from 2006 to 2015. How does the past year with low crude prices and diesel over production makeup for the past 9 years. ULSD and Tier V emissions are not going away.

Why are some people so offended with the notion there is a niche market for gas engines because tier IV and Tier V has made a small diesel in light duty applications less practical?

Because 2006 to 2015 is history, and there were specific factors during those years that cause the price of diesel to be higher. Those factors are gone and diesel is back to being less expensive than gasoline like it has been historically.

Your 9 years of high prices don't discount nearly 100 years of lower prices for diesel.

It's actually simple, but you won't admit the facts because they disprove your theory. Diesel producers have paid off the billions of dollars in upgrades required to make ULSD. Global demand has lowered. Crude prices have recovered from their artificially high levels in the past few years. Global supply is increasing as more countries start refining it locally. All of those are facts you can't change.

There is no Tier V. It's possible that if Europe enacts new standards in 2019, and the EPA might follow along and create a Tier V, but the manufacturers have already looked at the proposed European changes and found they already have solutions. The biggest change would be that engines under 24hp would be subject to the new rules, and a few engines that can get away without a DPF now will require one. That's about it....essentially a minor change with solutions already in place.

I'm not offended with the notion of a gas engine tractor, I'm offended by people making false statements time and again to support an argument that has no merit.

Manufacturers aren't making a gas engine CUT because it doesn't make sense for them to do so. They know their market a lot better than you do, and they have determined they can't sell enough of them to make any money on the idea. If they thought they could make more money going that direction, they would have already done so.

 

[GManBart]

Gas engines in tractors manufactured up to the mid 1970's and LP or Natural Gas engines to this day operate continuous full power and full rated rpms .

That has noting to do with diesel CUTs. Nobody said a gas engine couldn't run at rated power continuously.

A CUT does not get used with as high of a duty cycle as Big Time Operator chisel ploughing 18hrs a day for two weeks. CUT spend thier time in a lighter duty cycle with short duty , start, stop operation that does not fully heat up the engine and exhaust treatment system.

You simply don't understand duty cycle.

Lots of CUTs get run for hours on end at PTO speed....every time their owner brush hogs, tills, plows snow, etc. Certainly most spend some time at low power settings, but that doesn't change the fact that they are often run at PTO or rated speed for extended periods of time, and are capable of doing so indefinitely.

If the exhaust system isn't heated up as fully, or as long as required, all it means is a more frequent regen cycle....not exactly the end of the world.

 

[vsteel]

Oh, rider for sure. I don't feel up to push mowing anymore.

I think you are missing what I said. there are plenty of GAS tractors that were running less HP engines than many rider lawnmowers are now.. if the small engine in a lawnmower doesn't have to meet an emission standard, why would it need to meet the standard in a tractor application? My current 12.5 hp rider mower is MORE hp than a few of my cultivating tractors.. think about it...

I disagree with your disagremment on gasser lie expectancy.

looking at tractors and cars.. which, given is not straight apples to apples .. Look at gas cars from 70's 100k and the car was ready to be a toaster.

I think much of it is design and materials. Throw away engine designs coupled with alumin alloys, and non peak rated hp output put lots of stress on engines made smaller... that wore out and were junked instead of rebuilt.. vs a heavier beefier design meant to have liners punched out, bearings rolled in and crank polished and rings replaced then ready to go another couple decades. IE.. their constant load design was reflected in their materials. So.. 30's-60's were robust... 70-80's got puny.. now here we are with gas engines that don't need tune ups till past 100k.

I'd deffinately call that a bell. high, low, high...

OK, I wasn't thinking quite as small as you were. Farmall Cubs and so on was smaller than I was thinking, I was more in the 30 - 70 hp range. Those small engines wouldn't be exempt from emissions, they just have a little looser standards they have to meet. While the 70HP machine would need a catalytic converter and other goodies to make emissions, the small engines can just play with the cam and lean the carb out a lot to get by.

Gasser life expectancy I wasn't including rebuilds. So in my mind even though the old machines had sleeves, you had to rebuild them quicker. As materials and machining progressed the rebuild times kept getting out there longer and longer. Where today to borrow your car analogy you have cars that can get 200K+ miles before a rebuild. So I just see it as a linear line.

Hey look at that, we have had a great discussion on the internet without a single name, derogatory comment or any other disparaging remarks. I think we both win the internet. :drink::applause:

 

[Soundguy]

OK, I wasn't thinking quite as small as you were. Farmall Cubs and so on was smaller than I was thinking,:

I've mowed plenty of acres with a cub and belly mower. they have less hp than my rider mower.

Gasser life expectancy I wasn't including rebuilds. So in my mind even though the old machines had sleeves, you had to rebuild them quicker.:

The reason I did include rebuilds is because you say some aluminum parent block throw away engines that didn't lend to rebuilding.. thus artificially limiting the lifespan of the vehicle / machine.

As materials and machining progressed the rebuild times kept getting out there longer and longer. :

untill they went with the non rebuildable units.



Hey look at that, we have had a great discussion on the internet without a single name, derogatory comment or any other disparaging remarks. I think we both win the internet. :drink::applause:[/QUOTE]

Agreed!

 

[buickanddeere]

Because 2006 to 2015 is history, and there were specific factors during those years that cause the price of diesel to be higher. Those factors are gone and diesel is back to being less expensive than gasoline like it has been historically.

Your 9 years of high prices don't discount nearly 100 years of lower prices for diesel.

It's actually simple, but you won't admit the facts because they disprove your theory. Diesel producers have paid off the billions of dollars in upgrades required to make ULSD. Global demand has lowered. Crude prices have recovered from their artificially high levels in the past few years. Global supply is increasing as more countries start refining it locally. All of those are facts you can't change.

There is no Tier V. It's possible that if Europe enacts new standards in 2019, and the EPA might follow along and create a Tier V, but the manufacturers have already looked at the proposed European changes and found they already have solutions. The biggest change would be that engines under 24hp would be subject to the new rules, and a few engines that can get away without a DPF now will require one. That's about it....essentially a minor change with solutions already in place.

I'm not offended with the notion of a gas engine tractor, I'm offended by people making false statements time and again to support an argument that has no merit.

Manufacturers aren't making a gas engine CUT because it doesn't make sense for them to do so. They know their market a lot better than you do, and they have determined they can't sell enough of them to make any money on the idea. If they thought they could make more money going that direction, they would have already done so.

All the manufactures of ULSD all paid off the costs for the equipment to refine ULSD on the same day? As for that equipment being paid off and low cost. After 10years the ULSD refining equipment is becoming worn and antiquated which requires $$$ investment by the refiners .

 

[buickanddeere]

You clearly don't understand what a duty cycle is. CUT aren't cars or light trucks, or forklifts, or man lifts, and comparing them is pointless.

What CUT or SCUT manufacturer publishes a limit to the amount of time their machine can run at full rated power? None. Any diesel rated for continuous full power is NOT a light duty application.

Rated for full continuous power and the the Tier IV emission equipment would work much better that way. However Uncle Putz on his rural estate cleaning the drive way or pgetting the horse a bale of hay with his 100hr per year CUT is not using the tractor anywhere near rated power continuously .

 

[ultrarunner]

A friend says that once in motion, a rig doesn't use much fuel. So it's not the weight that figures into it so much at that point as wind and tire resistance. Just look at a train.

On the subject of new diesel technology, one of our farmers has a high dollar Fendt Tractor. He figures that thing has about a fifteen year life span before all the computers, sensors, cabling and connectors just become too old and expensive to maintain.

That, to me, is not very positive. Even his new JD bailer has a computer!

My cousin bought a new Fendt saying it was the best... I was thinking what happens down the road when parts are too expensive or not available.

I do have to say it is by far the nicest tractor I've ever seen... very capable, powerful, beautiful cab and drives well on the highway.

 

[ultrarunner]

If I could get 87without I personally would not waste money on the premium because it will serve you no better that the regular and in 99% of the uses of gas it will actually perform less efficiently than the regular. I have done extensive dyno testing back when I was racing and with almost every engine we tested fuels with they all made more power and better power curves with regular than they did with premium or race fuel. I still laugh when people pay the extra for it when they are driving anything less than a full on sports car that calls for it because of a high performance engine that will never end up in your lawn mower or tiller or even the family sedan.

A lot of higher end European cars require minimum 91 in the states which is lower than what is specified in Europe and as a result the HP of American market cars from BMW are slightly de-rated as it was explained to me.

 

[ultrarunner]

My daughter's Honda Accord had "smart carburetor". It was a maintenance nightmare. There were about 20 vacuum tubes connected to it. Even the dealer couldn't fix it.

My 1985 Chevrolet 305 V8 3/4 truck is carbureted... 31 years and still going strong and I have never touched the carburetor or engine... hope I'm not jinxing myself...

 

[GManBart]

All the manufactures of ULSD all paid off the costs for the equipment to refine ULSD on the same day? As for that equipment being paid off and low cost. After 10years the ULSD refining equipment is becoming worn and antiquated which requires $$$ investment by the refiners .

No, the upgrades took a number of years to be implemented and paid off, with some variation from refinery to refinery. The last refineries were upgraded around 2010. The average time to amortize those costs was supposed to be around 5 years going off a couple of industry sites.

You're completely guessing when you say that ULSD refining equipment is becoming worn. Refineries didn't spend $8B just to have to spend it again in a few years because they didn't build a system that would last for a long time.

 

[GManBart]

Rated for full continuous power and the the Tier IV emission equipment would work much better that way. However Uncle Putz on his rural estate cleaning drive way of getting the horse a bale of hay with his 100hr per year CUT is not using the tractor anywhere near rated power continuously .

That has nothing to do with the duty cycle the machines are built for. Just because some people don't run their CUTs hard doesn't mean some don't, or that they aren't designed for that.

I ran my Massey for three hours this weekend....2+ of that was at PTO speed. That's not uncommon at all for anybody who uses their tractor to mow, till, throw snow, brush hog, etc, etc.

 

[Redneck in training]

You clearly don't understand what a duty cycle is. CUT aren't cars or light trucks, or forklifts, or man lifts, and comparing them is pointless.

What CUT or SCUT manufacturer publishes a limit to the amount of time their machine can run at full rated power? None. Any diesel rated for continuous full power is NOT a light duty application.

Diesels tractors (or generators etc) engines have low specific power. Typically around 20-25 HP/liter. They run, at full throttle, only at less than half of the power they could possibly generate if used to full potential. That is why they last forever. Give them more fuel and/or add turbo and you can easily more than double or even triple the power.
Many manufacturers have tractor models with various power output using exactly the same engine with different injection pump setting.

 

[Turbys_1700]

I ran my tractor at the rated PTO speed last week for over 10 hours bush hogging pasture that had been left untouched for over a couple years. I have not read anything about duty cycle just that the oil change interval is listed at 300 hours. I would estimate that New Holland considers normal yearly use at 300 hours perhaps. Most CUT hours are probably lower.

I know that typical hours before rebuilds on diesel engines back in the day when my dad sold Allis Chalmers would run in the 8-12K hours range. They would see 6-8K hours on a typical AC Power Crater gas engine. Those were wet lined engine. We own 2 with over 4500 hours that have not had any engine work.

 

[buickanddeere]

Carburated gassers cars burning unleaded if they made it to 100,000 without at least a valve job and a set of rings . They were a wheezing oil burning clunker. Now a fuel injected gasser running unleaded doesn't even rate mentioning for going 300,000 with just filters, belts and two spark plug changes.
The 300,000 mile gasser makes more power per cu" than the old carburated gasser. Seem to hold together just fine without blowing up with the "added stress".

 

[Industrial Toys]

I found it interesting when I read a few years ago, that a modern fuel injection system can put fuel to an engine like an old school, high performance 4 bbl carb never could.

I have not been following the evolutuion (up to Tier 4 final) off-road diesel engines. Do any still have a conventional injector pump and injectors? Then, if push came to shove, you should still be able to make it run, and just throw the rest of that stuff in the garbage where it belongs.

 

[stuckmotor]

I've been told that a Farmall Super M, with an all fuel engine, when disking, would typically go through a full tank of gasoline by dinner time. Hopefully, a modern fuel injected gas tractor would do better.

 

[Turbys_1700]

I've been told that a Farmall Super M, with an all fuel engine, when disking, would typically go through a full tank of gasoline by dinner time. Hopefully, a modern fuel injected gas tractor would do better.

We could run through 2 tanks a day running our M. Same usage with our D17 Allis Chalmers gassers.