Is it time for a gasoline engine tractor?

[daugen]

Earlier I asked about torque. Here are gas engines with the horsepower for this segment,
but would twins last? My gut says no.
A straight four or even a three. Ford is selling turbo threes now...

CH1-31
EH99D-S11

if we agree that gas engines could be a reasonable alternative, then in today's market, which ones? Who currently makes
four cylinder engines that meet all emissions standards? Geez, will it need a catalytic converter?...

 

[buickanddeere]

I'm told running biodiesel can smell like popcorn.
while I believe there is nothing like the smell of diesel in the morning,
popcorn would be ok...

what is the cost difference between Number 2 and biodiesel? More than one type/grade of biodiesel I assume too.
Now if you also owned a restaurant, you could use your old cooking oil after some good filtering.

Those older tractors with the large propane tanks; could they stay out in the fields all day? For most of what most of us do, as not "real" farmers, capacity not much of an issue. And I already have a big propane tank on the property. There are some small handtools that run on those camping propane bottles. Since you can't recycle them, or get them refilled, seems an odd solution. But...I think the propane powered hand tools and small mower were a direct result of gasoline powered equipment not starting. I think the gasoline issue may be more of an issue in the Northern states where mowers, weedeaters, etc get used for a smaller portion of the year. Then they sit.

what there should be is a law where all gas engines have to have a fuel shutoff. Then you could run them dry easily, though I've read that's not a cure-all either.

For point of discussion, could we all agree to comparing gas and diesel for a 50hp CUT? Something most of us might have?
Could the best source of proven gas engines for long term use be the engines they use in propane generators, which are converted car engines?

And don't tractors normally have inline engines versus V for compactness? I know Cat 3208's were used in tractors, maybe not for long, of course no engine could be wider than the tires on a tractor... So what inline gas engines are we thinking of? Are we ready for gas turbo fours in our tractors?

With both my tractor and my diesel lawn mower I have to wear ear protection or it's just really tiring after an hour or two.
Would be nice to have a quieter alternative. But not as nice as good performance and much better fuel economy.

Would be nice to see some stats on tractors currently offered with both gas and diesel in the same hp, and see what
today's real world is like, not what many of us remember from 30 or 40 years ago.

Given that the world outside of North America prices diesel 10%-40% cheaper than gasoline. Manufactures who think global are not going to build gas tractors and eliminate themselves from the majority of the world market. As long as north American and western Europe CUT tractor purchasers will pay extra for Tier IV/Tier V diesel emissions. And NA & west Europe CUT customers will continue to pay for the Tier IV emissions as there is no way to revolt or repeal the EPA standards.
Manufactures are reluctant to invest in Tier IV/Tier V gas CUT as it's such a small market. If crude oil stays cheap this will lower the cost of ULSD and keep it about par with gasoline . Of course if crude returns to the prices of the past decade, ULSD will once again be 20%-30% more $$$ than gasoline.

 

[buickanddeere]

Yes, that's not an issue here either. Several stations handle off road diesel. I've got a 50 gallon tank with a pump I utilize on the back of my truck to fill with off road diesel.

Any gas stations sell dyed off road gasoline which would be cheaper ?

 

[pmsmechanic]

I don't know how it is in the US but here in Alberta most people don't run their small engines on off road fuel even if they have access to it. It seems to be a poorer quality fuel and the dye leads to carburetor problems.

I had one customer that bought a used truck wonder why his used oil looked so red after an oil change. Turns out he bought the truck from a farmer. There are some farmers here locally that won't used dyed gas in any gas engine on the farm even though it's .09/liter, .34/US gallon cheaper.

This has been my experience with dyed fuel. Your experiences might be different.

 

[aircommuter]

If you have never experienced phase separation with ethanol fuel then you haven't let you fuel sit long enough or you live in a very dry region or you have sealed fuel systems.
Lew Gibbs, a senior engineering consultant at Chevron, worries that leaving a few gallons of gasoline might attract enough condensation to cause phase separation. If that were to happen, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture would settle to the bottom of the tank and would remain there even after the fresh fuel was added in the spring.

 

[buickanddeere]

If you have never experienced phase separation with ethanol fuel then you haven't let you fuel sit long enough or you live in a very dry region or you have sealed fuel systems.
Lew Gibbs, a senior engineering consultant at Chevron, worries that leaving a few gallons of gasoline might attract enough condensation to cause phase separation. If that were to happen, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture would settle to the bottom of the tank and would remain there even after the fresh fuel was added in the spring.

That thar be why small, seasonal use equipment here is either fueled with 100LL or 91/94 octane premium with no ethanol.

 

[paulfun9]

Yeah and carbs can be setup to run in exactly two places in the power band. Sorry but it's EFI for me, more power, less fuel etc. etc. etc. Installing a carb with so much EFI gear out there is downright next to stoopid. Why you may as well get a mule.

You really don't understand carbs very well do You? Carb technology is much better than that but to match fuel injection it becomes cost prohibitive not impossible.

 

[aircommuter]

Do you have efi on your roto-tiller, lawn mower, chainsaw, etc.?
I think think 100ll is good way to protect those low use engines. Can you imagine the cost and danger involved with have e10 in your wet wing aircraft. I flew to work in my wet wing aircraft for ten years and after the what was happening to my generators like a Honda, new fuel tank 160.00, paving machine, fuel pump 120.00 and new carburettor 125.00 and (both were corroded beyond rebuilding), I cannot imagine that stuff in my wings.

 

[sixdogs]

That thar be why small, seasonal use equipment here is either fueled with 100LL or 91/94 octane premium with no ethanol.

I don't understand 91/94 octane premium. If that's just premium gas, doesn't that have ethanol in it as well? I'm not sure but thought it does here in Ohio.

 

[Fordman1981]

I don't understand 91/94 octane premium. If that's just premium gas, doesn't that have ethanol in it as well? I'm not sure but thought it does here in Ohio.

Depends on the station and the area. We can get 91/93 with or without ethanol same for 87 octane.

 

[paulfun9]

Depends on the station and the area. We can get 91/93 with or without ethanol same for 87 octane.

If I could get 87without I personally would not waste money on the premium because it will serve you no better that the regular and in 99% of the uses of gas it will actually perform less efficiently than the regular. I have done extensive dyno testing back when I was racing and with almost every engine we tested fuels with they all made more power and better power curves with regular than they did with premium or race fuel. I still laugh when people pay the extra for it when they are driving anything less than a full on sports car that calls for it because of a high performance engine that will never end up in your lawn mower or tiller or even the family sedan.

 

[Redneck in training]

You really don't understand carbs very well do You? Carb technology is much better than that but to match fuel injection it becomes cost prohibitive not impossible.

My daughter's Honda Accord had "smart carburetor". It was a maintenance nightmare. There were about 20 vacuum tubes connected to it. Even the dealer couldn't fix it.

 

[Fordman1981]

If I could get 87without I personally would not waste money on the premium because it will serve you no better that the regular and in 99% of the uses of gas it will actually perform less efficiently than the regular. I have done extensive dyno testing back when I was racing and with almost every engine we tested fuels with they all made more power and better power curves with regular than they did with premium or race fuel. I still laugh when people pay the extra for it when they are driving anything less than a full on sports car that calls for it because of a high performance engine that will never end up in your lawn mower or tiller or even the family sedan.

I agree 93 octane isn't needed for most. I don't mind ethanol and run E10 in everything except my 69 Mach 1. Even my 1971 F350 gets 87 e10 because I don't see a need to pay more for the 87 E0.

 

[buickanddeere]

If I could get 87without I personally would not waste money on the premium because it will serve you no better that the regular and in 99% of the uses of gas it will actually perform less efficiently than the regular. I have done extensive dyno testing back when I was racing and with almost every engine we tested fuels with they all made more power and better power curves with regular than they did with premium or race fuel. I still laugh when people pay the extra for it when they are driving anything less than a full on sports car that calls for it because of a high performance engine that will never end up in your lawn mower or tiller or even the family sedan.

Small air cooled engines in chain saws and snowmobiles are better operated on 91 or 94 octane to reduce detonation . For the little teeny tiny bit more $ for premium it avoids burning a hole through a piston due to detonation.

 

[Soundguy]

Oh, rider for sure. I don't feel up to push mowing anymore.

Last push mower I bought was 98.. it had a throttle.. havn't looked at one since, so they might well be startup and take off ready. I'll take your word for it.

as for small moter vs large motor... I think you are missing what I said. there are plenty of GAS tractors that were running less HP engines than many rider lawnmowers are now.. if the small engine in a lawnmower doesn't have to meet an emission standard, why would it need to meet the standard in a tractor application? My current 12.5 hp rider mower is MORE hp than a few of my cultivating tractors.. think about it...

I disagree with your disagremment on gasser lie expectancy.

looking at tractors and cars.. which, given is not straight apples to apples .. Look at gas cars from 70's 100k and the car was ready to be a toaster.

I think much of it is design and materials. Throw away engine designs coupled with alumin alloys, and non peak rated hp output put lots of stress on engines made smaller... that wore out and were junked instead of rebuilt.. vs a heavier beefier design meant to have liners punched out, bearings rolled in and crank polished and rings replaced then ready to go another couple decades. IE.. their constant load design was reflected in their materials. So.. 30's-60's were robust... 70-80's got puny.. now here we are with gas engines that don't need tune ups till past 100k.

I'd deffinately call that a bell. high, low, high...

Is your MTD a push mower or a rider? I was thinking push mowers, I have not seen a push mower in a while that didn't just have an on and off switch. Not saying I am an expert but just showing my point that small gas engines to meet regulations are specially setup to work at rated and not much else. The carburetors are adjusted for rated and not meant to be variable like the old days. Lots of smaller motors now are going EFI just to meet the standards.

I think you misunderstood what I said, current tier 4 regulations break "Nonroad Spark-Ignition Engines 19 Kilowatts and Below" down into different levels based on engine size, year, EPA phase, and if it is hand held or not. They also break out things like marine generators. What I was meaning is that a small lawnmower motor doesn't have to meet the same standards that a larger motor you would find in a tractor does.

I would disagree with your life expectancy, I would say gassers have been on a steady climb since day one but in the 60s diesels overtook gas and stayed ahead but have been losing ground to the gas motors.

I don't disagree that gas tractors can do the work, I am merely talking about the differences between gas and diesel engines and why diesel gained favor a long time ago.

In 1990 my father bought an 8200 Heston windrower and got it with a gas engine. It was one of 6 built (or that is what we were told) that year and I think it was the next year that they dropped the gas option. Just not enough demand.

 

[Soundguy]

Yes and a pound of diesel weighs more then a pound of gas

!!?!!!

 

[Soundguy]

Farm tractors all ran similar or identical rpms for the gas and diesel versions.
Just as a point Yanmar has made a 3600rpm single cyclinder air cooled diesel for decades. is it a lousy performer ?

Maybee not related.. but in 58 or so when ford introduced it's diesel prior models using the red tiger engines.. the lineup looked like this.

gas version

134ci gas or 172ci diesel.

144ci diesel, 172ci diesel.


the diesel were lower hp than their gas counterparts... heck.. the 134 / 144 weren't even the same CI...

 

[GManBart]

because the Semi truck is a HD applications with a duty cycle near full rpm and full power. The CUT, forklift, manlift, car and light truck are light duty application at part throttle and part load. I am being to think that some people don't know the difference ?

You clearly don't understand what a duty cycle is. CUT aren't cars or light trucks, or forklifts, or man lifts, and comparing them is pointless.

What CUT or SCUT manufacturer publishes a limit to the amount of time their machine can run at full rated power? None. Any diesel rated for continuous full power is NOT a light duty application.

 

[buickanddeere]

You clearly don't understand what a duty cycle is. CUT aren't cars or light trucks, or forklifts, or man lifts, and comparing them is pointless.

What CUT or SCUT manufacturer publishes a limit to the amount of time their machine can run at full rated power? None. Any diesel rated for continuous full power is NOT a light duty application.

Typical use of CUT tractors is light duty . Even if it was medium or heavy duty so what . Rare is the CUT that is used more than 200hrs a year.

 

[GManBart]

If crude oil stays cheap this will lower the cost of ULSD and keep it about par with gasoline . Of course if crude returns to the prices of the past decade, ULSD will once again be 20%-30% more $$$ than gasoline.

Why do you insist on repeating things that are wrong? The national average price for regular unleaded and diesel are within a penny or two of one another, and have been that way for a year.

Crude price isn't the only factor in the price of fuel, and a rise in crude price alone won't make diesel instantly more expensive than unleaded. Diesel refineries had to repay billions in upgrades to comply with ULSD standards....that's paid off. Demand for diesel has been at unprecedented rates. Other countries are starting to refine diesel, and that will increase worldwide supply, which will keep the price low.

In short, pretty much everything other than your personal opinion points to diesel continuing to be similar priced to unleaded, and lower in many places. This station isn't losing money, and I'm pretty sure they don't have a sweetheart deal on the price of diesel: