Wheel spacers or weights for slopes?

[the8080]

Good picture skyhook. I think we just have a terminology issue. We were just trying to say that the CG is the circle on your drawing and is in a fixed position on the tractor, no matter how the tractor is tipped.

The 60% on the back axle was just a reasonable number to use. Same with the 500lb ballast. Depending on rear mower weight and how it is adjusted, your rear axle weight will go up and the effect of your 200lb wheel weights will go down as a %. With 200lb ballast the original calculations show a 20% increase in stability with the 200lb wheel weight. In real life, say you increase the rear axle weight by 50% with an operator in seat and a mower lifted off the ground, then the 200lb wheel weight would give you about 15% increase in stability. The spacers still give same % stability increase as before because this is depended on the ratio of old wheel width to new wheel width. Not real scientific but will give you a feel for the relative effects of these changes. And remember, these numbers don't even try to address rollover angle, safe mowing slope, speed, etc.

 

[number9L]

Yes, that is a good drawing, picture worth a thousand words, right.

Gotcha 8080, I see where you are coming from now.

My TnT setup allowed the RH QH handle to get up into the tail light and busted it. I removed them both to keep from happening again. Yea, it looks BAD, but I am going to make a cap plate and mount in their place to tidy the tail up a little.

New 5" spacers anodized black.

Pic of "before" with 3" wheel spacers, R1's set all the way out.

First new 5" spacer on.

Both new spacers installed.

Pic of excersize weights I mounted to the drawbar. 130# total.

Hopefully I can get this thing lined out to be real good on the slopes I need to use it on from where it was stock.

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[number9L]

Well I mowed Monday for the first time with the weights and new spacers. The tractor went across all spots that I usually mow, even the steepest part by the tree on the pond bank in the pics, which is a solid 25*, with no pucker factor. It did crab, but didn't feel tippy at all.

So then I went and swapped out the finish mower for the bush hog (not running) and just drove around the new slopes that I was concerned about. This was the first time I'd been on them side slope simulating mowing and it felt fine. The area is a little bumpy from ruts forming and clumps of dirt left from having to get on it and rework the ditch. Once I get the clods smoothed out I think it will be fine on most all of it, the parts I crossed were hitting between 20-25*. There was a spot or two that I may have to do backing down, they were a little steeper and the ground / grass is still a little tender so I didn't want to make opportunities for new ruts to form.

All in all I am really satisfied with the changes. The weights made a good difference in feeling planted and taking away some pucker factor. The added width just seemed to multiply the planted feeling.

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[TomSeller]

Great news!!

 

[dragoneggs]

I am a big fan of the spacers! 2in on the rears and 1.25in on the fronts. Haven't filled my tires because of the potential hassle and not sure I wanted more weight on back as long as I have a rear implement on which I always do for balance reasons. I do a lot of FEL work.

 

[Brown Dog]

#9,
How wide is your mower ?
How Wide is your rear tires now, with Spacers ?

Glad you got your problem solved

 

[number9L]

Finish mower is 72"
Bush hog is 60"
Tractor rear is 72" (outside tread)

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[vtsnowedin]

All in all I am really satisfied with the changes. The weights made a good difference in feeling planted and taking away some pucker factor. The added width just seemed to multiply the planted feeling.

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Glad to hear it. happy mowing to yah.

 

[skyhook]

Good to hear it worked out well for ya, number9L.
With all that extra width and weight, be careful not to run over anybody's toes.

 

[TomSeller]

Right. Wide tractors take a little getting used to so you don't hit things with your wheels

 

[HandyDanny]

Gary, I do have the tires filled (all 4) and currently have 3" rear wheel spacers.

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Sorry to resurrect an old post - I'm curious about your front tires being filled. I've been told I shouldn't fill my front tires because of extra stress it puts on the steering. Hasn't made complete sense to me as the steering has at least a ton of weight on it, plus more once the FEL bucket is full. Any issues with your steering after filling the fronts?

 

[vtsnowedin]

Sorry to resurrect an old post - I'm curious about your front tires being filled. I've been told I shouldn't fill my front tires because of extra stress it puts on the steering. Hasn't made complete sense to me as the steering has at least a ton of weight on it, plus more once the FEL bucket is full. Any issues with your steering after filling the fronts?

Not going back to read the whole thread I'll take the risk of contradicting myself. Ballast on the front is usually needed when pulling some heavy implement through heavy cohesive (sticky) soil. If you mount a front end loader they will tell you to remove any front weights (including tire fill) you have on as the loader more then balances them out. The front end is designed to take the load of a front end loader or filled tires and front weights. BUT!!! Not both at the same time.
Then you have the issue of how much weight you carry on the 3PH when you are loading heavy material.? The right amount for your tractor can greatly reduce the wear and tear on the front axle parts and having your front tires loaded would not help this at all.
Hope this helps. Others with more time at the computer will undoubtedly try to help you further.

 

[dragoneggs]

I think filling the fronts, especially if FEL and bucket are in place is a waste of time. Maybe in some large tractors where the tires are bigger, but speaking for my BX, it is much much more efficient to utilize the weight of the bucket than add a relatively small amount of weight to the tires.

 

[AxleHub]

I've read the whole thread from its Sept. 2014 posts till current.

There was considerable good ideas suggested and the ever present center of gravity issues and calculations.

However I was quite surprised that all the focus was on center of gravity.

Because there was concern about slippery conditions and turf damage . . . I would have thought turf tires where more rubber grip contact with lawn would have reduced ripping turf . . and would greatly improved traction . . Especially on side hills. The aggressive nature of ag tires is welcome for dirt but "too cutting" in sidehills with grass.

The other thing . . is the idea that pulling a trailer or 3pt hitch mower or brush hog doesn't alter sidehill issues greatly. A pull behind item wants to create its own path or direction when on sidehills or hills. While center of gravity is "the thing" on sidehills on a lone tractor . . When a fel or rear pull-behind item gets involved . . then CG is only part the solution.

 

[Brown Dog]

I fluid filled All 4 tires 90% full, on all 3 of my JD's
:-D

The traction is so much better, rides better & sticks like glue on hills.

It keeps the weight OFF the front axle & pivot pin.

I can feel light resistance in steering with FEL in place, on any of my 3 tractors.

 

[HandyDanny]

Vermont, Dragon, and Axle - thanks. Appreciate your responses.

 

[vtsnowedin]

I've read the whole thread from its Sept. 2014 posts till current.

There was considerable good ideas suggested and the ever present center of gravity issues and calculations.

However I was quite surprised that all the focus was on center of gravity.

Because there was concern about slippery conditions and turf damage . . . I would have thought turf tires where more rubber grip contact with lawn would have reduced ripping turf . . and would greatly improved traction . . Especially on side hills. The aggressive nature of ag tires is welcome for dirt but "too cutting" in sidehills with grass.

The other thing . . is the idea that pulling a trailer or 3pt hitch mower or brush hog doesn't alter sidehill issues greatly. A pull behind item wants to create its own path or direction when on sidehills or hills. While center of gravity is "the thing" on sidehills on a lone tractor . . When a fel or rear pull-behind item gets involved . . then CG is only part the solution.

Center of gravity is such a big deal because that is what determines when and where a roll over occurs. I give a rats pa tout about whether my ag tires tear up a bit of turf just as long as I keep it wheels down and my creaky old self in the seat surrounded by the Rops.
A brush hog on behind helps with the COG if you are holding it at grade with the 3PH but if it's riding on the tail wheel and side plates the weight they are bearing is subtracted from the COG computations. Anything in tow on a pin type drawbar hitch will not help at all until you are already starting to lift a rear tire and that is way WAY beyond any margin of safety you should be using.

 

[number9L]

Sorry to resurrect an old post - I'm curious about your front tires being filled. I've been told I shouldn't fill my front tires because of extra stress it puts on the steering. Hasn't made complete sense to me as the steering has at least a ton of weight on it, plus more once the FEL bucket is full. Any issues with your steering after filling the fronts?

Nope none at all. I'm at 340 hrs now with no front end problems yet. I think I put about ??gal in each front tire?? I do remember it was about 80# added weight. I did it to help keep the front wheels down when bush hogging going UP hills, some areas they would skim above the ground and it's a little hard to steer like that

I don't mow or cut at all, anywhere with the FEL on, TOOOOO much weight up high (weight of the loader arms) near or above the hood level to be on any kind of slope.

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[FTG-05]

Nope none at all. I'm at 340 hrs now with no front end problems yet. I think I put about ??gal in each front tire?? I do remember it was about 80# added weight. I did it to help keep the front wheels down when bush hogging going UP hills, some areas they would skim above the ground and it's a little hard to steer like that

I don't mow or cut at all, anywhere with the FEL on, TOOOOO much weight up high (weight of the loader arms) near or above the hood level to be on any kind of slope.

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I filled my front tires as well. Much more stable - to me - while going up my hill while bushhogging it. One of the better things I've done IMO.

I put 12 gallons of RV antifreeze/water mix into each tire, about 95 lbs or so. Well worth it.

 

[AxleHub]

Center of gravity is such a big deal because that is what determines when and where a roll over occurs. I give a rats pa tout about whether my ag tires tear up a bit of turf just as long as I keep it wheels down and my creaky old self in the seat surrounded by the Rops.
A brush hog on behind helps with the COG if you are holding it at grade with the 3PH but if it's riding on the tail wheel and side plates the weight they are bearing is subtracted from the COG computations. Anything in tow on a pin type drawbar hitch will not help at all until you are already starting to lift a rear tire and that is way WAY beyond any margin of safety you should be using.

Greetings Vtsnow, turf issues might not be your concern, but they were for number9's point of view as he stated . . plus if you are ripping turf you are losing the traction stability beneath you. And certainly traction is all of our concerns and tire profile of an ag tire vs turf tire on a sidehill advantages the turf tire for roll over concerns (side hill).

But for all the science type of center of gravity ( COG) physics . . . I had mentioned when a unit adds either front torsion leverage or rear torsion deflection . . COG is also only part of the story. Often times in our battles to defeat gravity on tractors or motorcycles or atv or bicycles for that matter . . forward momentum (or inertia) helps keep people upright . . . And the loss of that inertia or a forced slowdown of that inertia hurts your "staying upright". A fel on a sidehill or a brush hog behind on a sidehill causes drag on inertia and torsion twist because of gravity. Those implements are at the influence of gravity . . and they are being "pulled down" while we are trying to go sideways on hills.

A mid mount mower or a "direct side" batwing can aid in keeping you upright on a sidehill . . but a fel or trailer/3 pt attachment is never your sidehill friend in the effort at staying upright. You might stay upright in spite of them . . but not because of them.

Those who say COG is the only thing that keeps you upright have apparently never seen a motorcycle race or driven a motorcycle where COG is regularly and continually defeated by "a controlled" momentum or forward inertia . . and the rider continues upright while their COG is far outside their wheels.