Loader GC2310 FEL very weak

[crazyjncsu]

I've always felt the entire tractor was a bit slow/weak, but today the front loader was a huge disappointment. I was trying to do some grading, and the loader just wasn't able to lift much of anything. I couldn't even empty a bucket full of dirt from pushing, which made the whole exercise very frustrating.

It seems to lift relatively fast when the bucket is empty, which would seem to indicate there is not a restriction in the lines (???).

It drives pretty good and pushes dirt pretty hard, so it seems the drive is unaffected (???).

The backhoe has always seemed slow, but I have watched other videos and it doesn't seem out of the ordinary. The hoe does seem a little weak, but with my disappointment in being slow, that didn't seem out of the ordinary either.

The loader doesn't have a fast weep when the bucket is empty or full, which would seem to indicate the cylinder seals are fine (???).

I'm aware of the issue with the short spline shaft, but that seems to affect the drive also, and the drive seems unaffected in this case.

This shows the issue:
http://youtu.be/3cvNxkM77d8 (1:42 long)

This shows other functions that seem to be unaffected:
http://youtu.be/pkOXrtHZvMQ (1:24 long)

Can you guys suggest anything to look at? Thanks!

 

[crazyjncsu]

But after looking at this thread:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...e/240084-mf-135-loader-hydraulics-weak-3.html

It's probably relevant to point out that my loader bucket seems higher on one side than the other. It was like that when I bought it, so I figured it was due to damage, but maybe one of my lift cylinders is bad...

 

[ray66v]

The first ting I would do is check the hydraulic pressure to the FEL.

You will need a gauge you can put in the line, and see what kind of pressure is available to the valve, when it fails to lift anything.

Then, you want to check the pressure coming out of the valve, to see that it is the same as coming in.

I do not know what you should have as far as pressure goes, but it's in the thousands. Someone will chime in with that information.

If you have pressure, going to the cylinders, they may be bad. If you don't, you may only have a clogged strainer, or filter. But, it could be a bad pump.

Keep in mind the drive pump for the wheels, is a separate one.

 

[crazyjncsu]

Thanks, I have a hydraulic gauge and fittings on the way. But I've also gotten a little ahead of myself....

The more I read, this is starting to seem like the 2005 year spline issue. I bought the machine with just over 300 hours, and it's always seemed disappointingly slow/weak (but much more so lately). My dealer seemed to agree on everything and contacted his service rep. The service rep denied our initial request to have some assistance from MF on the issue. I'm taking it up with ACGO answers.

The spline issue wouldn't be so egregious if there wasn't the 8mm void filled with gasket compound. Someone clearly miscalculated dimensions in the design. It's so half-assed they should fix it just out of embarrassment.

 

[ray66v]

Yes, we are aware of that.

If the pump shears, it usually stops working all together.

AGCO's has fixed only those which failed under warranty. The rest have only gotten parts out of them.

It's totally wrong. But, so far haven't seemed to feel that bad about it.

If that is determined to be the case, it is important that you let us know what they did for you. There are still many of these out there.

 

[Fiziksgeek]

Relief valve maybe?

 

[crazyjncsu]

The gauges got to my house yesterday, but I haven't been able to put them on yet.

I was running the tractor yesterday and maybe have a more specific idea on the symptoms:

It operates much worse when warmed up for 10-15 minutes. FEL can lift full bucket when first started up. After 10 minutes it gets really weak.

There is lots of slop/slack/play/whatever in bucket and backhoe curl. I can move the edge of the bucket up and down 4-5 inches with my hands without hydraulic resistance. Same for backhoe bucket. It's not so much 'spongy' though.

The hydraulic oil fills up the sight glass. Too full? And I saw an air bubble through the sight glass. (the previous owner just changed the fluid 20 hours ago)

 

[ray66v]

You could try jacking it up in the back, to see at what point the sight glass shows the oil level.

Draining some out is no big deal, I doubt too full is the problem.

I can't imagine cheap fluid causing that much of a problem. Some members use the generic with no issues. Still, can't help but wonder what they put in there.

There is a suction pick up screen, behind the left tire. A long shot could be that he did not remove it, and clean it when they changed the oil, and it's obstructed with debris.

You can remove it without draining all the oil. You will need a pan to catch what comes out. and someone to put their finger over the hole, while you clean it.

Did he use a genuine MF hydraulic oil filter? Look for some writing on it. There are no known generic filters. People do experiment with these.

 

[TSO]

The fluid should go halfway up the sight glass for proper level. Also, you may need to bleed air out of the system. There should be a bleeder bolt on the pump housing ... Check your manual, instructions should point the way.

 

[ray66v]

The fluid should go halfway up the sight glass for proper level. Also, you may need to bleed air out of the system. There should be a bleeder bolt on the pump housing ... Check your manual, instructions should point the way.

Dual acting cylinders are usually self bleeding.

My manual lists no bleeder screw, or procedure for doing so.

 

[TSO]

Dual acting cylinders are usually self bleeding.

My manual lists no bleeder screw, or procedure for doing so.

Right ... But when you change your hydraulic fluid and filters, there's an opportunity for air to get into the system. On my Massey, there is a bleeder screw on the hydraulic pump (or near it, can't remember exactly) that you can loosen to bleed air out of the system.

 

[DMW]

Does the bucket curl and lift show the same symptoms? If it's just the lift, try uncoupling the quick disconnects and reconnect ensuring they are fully seated. Sometimes they look ok, but may not be fully engaged. Otherwise it sounds like air is getting into the system. Suction line may be damaged, or strainer not properly installed after oil change. Both are easily accessible by jacking up the back and removing the left rear tire.

 

[crazyjncsu]

Thanks guys! Next time I get out there I'm going to test/document pressures first.

Then check quick connects (I've checked the ones at the FEL already but not backhoe).

Then check suction screen.

If those don't work I'll try new fluid.


I think the curl is weak too, but it's not as noticeable. I can't tell if there is the flop in the lift because I can't lift it with my arms. I'll try to tell by pushing down on the ground.

 

[ray66v]

Thanks guys! Next time I get out there I'm going to test/document pressures first.

Then check quick connects (I've checked the ones at the FEL already but not backhoe).

Then check suction screen.

If you do change the fluid, put the MF Permatran in it.

 

[crazyjncsu]

I checked quick disconnects and checked several fittings for hoses I had recently replaced. Everything seemed fine.

I removed the suction filter bolt. The suction filter had become detached, and was kind of floating around in the chamber. It looks like the previous owner had broken it somehow and tried to fix it with JB Weld.

I let all of the fluid drain out and then put the bolt back in until I get the new suction screen from jacks (part 4265208M91) ... The fluid had lots of little air bubbles in it.

I also took the hydro filter off and let out another little bit of fluid. The inside of the filter looked clean. I think the end of the filter had imprinted "DK11".

I'm still not 100% certain the suction filter contributed to the issue (even though it should certainly be addressed) ... I'm thinking the JB Weld signifies the previous owners willingness to cut some corners, and likely the fluid is just under-spec. Is fluid foaming common? Is there any way to quickly test the fluid to determine the type or the presence of an anti-foaming agent? I'm not crazy about driving an hour each way to my dealer for permatran ... but I will if necessary.

 

[TSO]

Permatran compatible is fine. I believe it's "Permatran III" compliant. Go to your local TSC or similar farm supply store and buy it there.

 

[DMW]

If a Kubota dealer is closer, SUDT2 (not the UDT or SUDT) is an excellent (better IMO) alternative to Permatran . Try not to use a cheaper "meets permatran standard" house brand oil. They may meet the minimum requirements, but suffer when used in a subcompact. The SCUTs are a lot harder on oil than larger tractors. The oil will probably be in the tractor for the next 5 years., so a few extra dollars are well spent.
In your picture of the strainer plug/suction line, I believe there is an o ring that fits between the tractor and the suction line (can't really see in picture), and another on the plug that goes against the suction line.

Don't worry about any oil left in the cylinders, it will have a negligible effect when you refill the reservoir.

 

[TSO]

If a Kubota dealer is closer, SUDT2 (not the UDT or SUDT) is an excellent (better IMO) alternative to Permatran . Try not to use a cheaper "meets permatran standard" house brand oil. They may meet the minimum requirements, but suffer when used in a subcompact. The SCUTs are a lot harder on oil than larger tractors. The oil will probably be in the tractor for the next 5 years., so a few extra dollars are well spent.
In your picture of the strainer plug/suction line, I believe there is an o ring that fits between the tractor and the suction line (can't really see in picture), and another on the plug that goes against the suction line.

Don't worry about any oil left in the cylinders, it will have a negligible effect when you refill the reservoir.

Most of these oils come from the same tank. I believe that Kubota oil is from Valvoline. My "Motorcraft" oil is from Conoco Phillips. Massey doesn't refine their own special Permatran oil. Don't get me wrong, I like using quality fluids. But, I haven't read anything suggesting that the store brand hydraulic fluid, that is listed for Permatran, or any other brand spec, is less than adequate.

And, I was considering swapping mine to Amsoil, until I learned about this.

 

[DMW]

Most of these oils come from the same tank. I believe that Kubota oil is from Valvoline. My "Motorcraft" oil is from Conoco Phillips. Massey doesn't refine their own special Permatran oil. Don't get me wrong, I like using quality fluids. But, I haven't read anything suggesting that the store brand hydraulic fluid, that is listed for Permatran, or any other brand spec, is less than adequate.

95%+ of the time I would agree with you.The higher cost of premium fluids is usually due to the additive package that is added to the "generic" base oil. They can dramatically increase the effectiveness of a lubricant. SubCUTs , due to their small sump size, operate at higher temps than most tractors , less time to get rid of entrained air, water contamination due to hot/cold cycle. The additives add a lot of goodness to the oil that allows it to function longer, with better qualities.

 

[TSO]

95%+ of the time I would agree with you.The higher cost of premium fluids is usually due to the additive package that is added to the "generic" base oil. They can dramatically increase the effectiveness of a lubricant. SubCUTs , due to their small sump size, operate at higher temps than most tractors , less time to get rid of entrained air, water contamination due to hot/cold cycle. The additives add a lot of goodness to the oil that allows it to function longer, with better qualities.

I'm sure that there is probably a certain point in the duty cycle life of hydraulic fluid in these machines where what you are saying makes sense, in regards to excessive heat and wear. I probably put more hours on my CUT in a year than the majority of owners on this forum will do in 5 or 10 years. And I probably also get my fluid to a higher temperature as well. That's because I use mine commercially and often for hours and hours at a time. But even then, I don't think that I can get the oil hot enough to break it down to the point of losing protection in the manner it was designed for. Maybe if I ran it 20 hours a day and never gave it a chance to cool down, maybe then that would apply. I just don't see it happening, especially at the rate that most users work their machines.

You are correct that additive packages are proprietary to brand, and each package is touted for specific benefits. But I doubt that an adequate additive package is lacking from the "store brand" oils that are spec'd for specific compatibility.

Here's a picture of the label on the bulk hydraulic fluid I use. Clearly, it meets numerous manufacturers base specs, and it also claims to have an advanced additive package as well.