The Log house Project begins........

[EddieWalker]

What I would do before tearing anything apart is run a hose over each panel, one section at a time, and let it run for awhile. In the case of my clients house, once I got the hose up to the peak of the roof, I found multiple leaks all over the place and concluded that the original contractor used cheap or defective screws. I thought that it would be a gamble to try and just replace the bad ones, so I did all of them. It's been a few years and everything is still good. I don't know if that's your problem or not, but it sounds similar.

Another thing to consider is how hard it's raining. A light rain didn't cause any problems, but a heavy rain sure did!!

Screws should be snug tight so the rubber just starts to bulge. Too tight and the rubber breaks, which is a fairly common reason for leaks. The cost of the screws reflects the quality of the rubber used. I don't trust Home Depot or Lowes for screws. I spend twice as much for them by going to Mueller's, which is a metal building company here in my area. I think they are the best, and worth the added expense.

Eddie

 

[pacerron]

I don't know the proper way to secure screwed down roofs, but I notice looking at the picture again that you have the screws going through the flat part of the metal.

I've got some very large barn roofs that haven't leaked in over 20 years. They are nailed on with special painted barbed roof nails that have rubber washers under them.

But.... they are nailed through the high ridges of the metal roofing so that contraction and expansion of the metal does not effect the washer seal.
One of the barns is 64 feet wide with single lengths of metal from the ridge to the spouting. Even though my metal is white and insulated underneath, instead of brown like yours, it has to do a lot of expansion and contraction, but the ridges take care of it without loosening the nails.

In comparison, I have preformed white aluminum over and lipped under the gable end overhangs of my house. There are small ridges rolled in them for strength but the white aluminum barbed nails are nailed on the flats of the metal (common practice) No worry about leaks on the vertical trim but the metal does expand and contract a lot from summer to winter, particularly at the soffit box end where the L had to be cut off. I can see a number of nails have popped a little as a result.

I'm not saying emphatically, that your placement of the screws is wrong, because I don't know, but from a point of logic I would not do it that way.

 

[EddieWalker]

While there are a few companies that recommend attaching their metal through the ridges, they are the exception. In almost every case, you want to attach the screws through the flat of the metal so you have a SOLID attachment. Going through the ridge means you have to stop screwing when you touch the metal or you will push the ridge down and deform it. It does allow you to keep the holes in your metal above the majority of the water, but not all of it and this is where all the leaks occur on those types of fasteners.

Nails should never be used on metal roofs. They work themselves loose over time and it's much harder to get the rubber snug. If it's not leaking, either you're not seeing it, or it will. It's just a matter of time. Movement causes leaks. Going through the top off the ridge means there will be movement, and there is only so much movement that the building can take before it starts to leak.

Eddie

 

[MotorSeven]

Ron, that used to be the accepted practice, through the ridge, but almost all metal roof mfg's recommend through the flats like Eddie mentioned. I have done 2 houses and several barns this way and not had one leak anywhere.

Eddie I get my screws through the metal "broker" here so I am not sure of the brand. It is possible one of the two drills used was not adjusted right and either overtightened or not tightened enough. If mistakes were made, there were only two men up on the roof, so it must have been the other guy :laughing: When we get a warm/dry day I will rig the safety harness, throw a rope over the roof and tie off on the truck bed in the driveway. That way I can work my way up and down this area checking screws without taking a flying leap of 60'.

 

[brin]

Ron, that used to be the accepted practice, through the ridge, but almost all metal roof mfg's recommend through the flats like Eddie mentioned. I have done 2 houses and several barns this way and not had one leak anywhere.

Eddie I get my screws through the metal "broker" here so I am not sure of the brand. It is possible one of the two drills used was not adjusted right and either overtightened or not tightened enough. If mistakes were made, there were only two men up on the roof, so it must have been the other guy :laughing: When we get a warm/dry day I will rig the safety harness, throw a rope over the roof and tie off on the truck bed in the driveway. That way I can work my way up and down this area checking screws without taking a flying leap of 60'.

Please remember to take the keys out of the truck...leave a big note on the steering wheel if no one is home...

 

[pacerron]

While there are a few companies that recommend attaching their metal through the ridges, they are the exception. In almost every case, you want to attach the screws through the flat of the metal so you have a SOLID attachment. Going through the ridge means you have to stop screwing when you touch the metal or you will push the ridge down and deform it. It does allow you to keep the holes in your metal above the majority of the water, but not all of it and this is where all the leaks occur on those types of fasteners.

Nails should never be used on metal roofs. They work themselves loose over time and it's much harder to get the rubber snug. If it's not leaking, either you're not seeing it, or it will. It's just a matter of time. Movement causes leaks. Going through the top off the ridge means there will be movement, and there is only so much movement that the building can take before it starts to leak.

Eddie

Eddie,
Anything is possible. So far my barns have withstood 70 mph winds, driving rains, and a foot or more of snow and ice on them for over 20 years.
All the materials came from Morton who is a big supplier in the Northeast.
My barns were built by a crew of Mennonite barn builders who had been and are still doing it this way. Barns are their business.
The problem I personally see with washered screws or nails used in the flats between the ribs is they are exposed to all the water between the ridges
running over them, from the ridge to the bottom, just as if they were in the bottom of a creek.
Fastening through the ridges only exposes each nail head to the water that directly rains on it. It and the rest, by gravity runs down the sides of the ridge to the creek.
If there ever were a leaking nail head the drop/drops of water would likely bounce off, evaporate or cling to the underside of the ridge and slowly crawl or be evaporated by the airflow up the ridges from the bottom to the ridge which has a vented top cap.
There is probably more sweat accumulation on the bottom of those ridges on a daily basis and evaporating than a leaky nail or screw would ever supply.

Regardless, Rick is looking for sources of his leak and is not about to replace his roof.
Since it is the porches where the water is showing up it is likely his transition or like you said a leaky, loose, or crooked screw.
Since his back porch faces north it is less likely to dry out from the sun in the winter.

A little further north of him most everyone has mold growing on the north side of their house and roof in a few years because of lack of sun in the winter.
I hope if he does take your suggestion of running a hose all over his roof there are not leaks down into his finished ceiling.
I know from doing engineering work on large commercial buildings in the past that the source of a roof leak can be clear across the building from where the drip is occurring. That happens just as well in residential structures.

 

[Josh Shoemaker]

WOW!!! I am impressed to say the least. Not with the building of the house but with all the ideas of using old stuff and making something that looks like it would cost about 4 to 5 times what you got in it. I just read 221 pages of pure American Inguenity in 10 hours. Rick, I have a bottle of Markers Mark and we need to empty it over discussing plans I have to do basically what you just have accomplished. I live in the suburbs and grew up in the country surrounded by pastures and creeks. I purchased 40 acres 3 years ago and would like to build out there. We both have a lot of same instrest, I would like to raise a few cows, sheep, and bale hay. I have an XR 650 that loves to rip up some gravel roads and I want to build something like you have now.

That sucks about the roof leak. Since I just read the entire thread there are some things fresh in my memory like when you got ready to put the roof on you pre drilled the holes. Is there by any chance you might have missed putting a screw in a hole you drilled? Just a thought. I wish I lived in place where you live where the neighbors help one another. When you got some free time I would like to see that house. Maybe if you got enough time I can bring my XR up and you can show me some of those gravel roads. Hey are you ADVrider.com?

 

[MotorSeven]

Thanks Josh, I was the other way around...grew up in the 'burbs, and now live out beyond the sticks. Yep, I'm on ADV and was at "Notarally3" in Oct....had a blast. I have had a couple of members swing by & you're more than welcome...bring a tool belt, safety harness and 120' rope:laughing:

Yes we did pre-drill, and yes it is possible we missed one or didn't torque one right. It's the leak intermittency that buggs me the most, I feel like I have been chasing my tail. As soon as we get a break in the weather, I'm going up there to take a close look.

 

[MotorSeven]

Here is Hurricane Creek from the Rally:

 

[pacerron]

M-7
I wondered if my many years of retirement and spending lots of time in the woods had caused me to lose track of current technology

Checking my suppliers fastener page I see the same nails are used today as well as a stainless steel screw option.

Fasteners » Morton Buildings

In both cases they are pictured in the ridges.

So it comes down to, as in most cases, what is popular in an area and what the owner is comfortable with.

Good luck on your leak. If it is coming from a hole in the roof, rather than the transition, and is big enough to drip clear down at the porch level
you may have a lot of water that has soaked into the wood under the tin.

 

[bindian]

I get my "R" panel metal and screws from Mueller, like Eddie. Their manufacturer instructions call for the screws on the flats between the ridges. Until I built my barn with Mueller's products, I used corrugated tin, with the NAILS (no rubber washer) going into the ridges. Screw placement might go to match a certain wind rating.
hugs, Brandi

 

[MotorSeven]

Ron, yes some still recommend the ridges, but if you google the subject you will find more mfg's using the flats method & I don't think region has much to do with it. Both methods have their weaknesses, and the bottom line is when you put a hole on your metal roof, it is always a possible fail point. I have an idea of why the flats are getting the nod in recent years, the metal used now is thinner, and deforms much easier than the old galvanized stuff that weighed a ton. I think the metal from 50 years ago stood a much better chance against a guy with a heavy hammer than the stuff nowadays. Yes, you can get thicker Galvalume panels, but the cost is way up there. No way would I try screw the metal I used on my roof through the rib because even with the clutch set properly, when screwing into a softer area of the purlin, I would over drive it. I know, because I have tried in the past. I used to be a ridge guy, but switched to the flats a long long time ago.

If I have a leak through a screw hole it's going to be operator error, not because it's in the flat. And if this is in fact the case, I'll find it come eLL or high wat.........e.....r:laughing:

 

[Josh Shoemaker]

Can you still purchase roofing nails with a lead washer? I thought that someone told me that the EPA banned it.

 

[pacerron]

Ron, yes some still recommend the ridges, but if you google the subject you will find more mfg's using the flats method & I don't think region has much to do with it. Both methods have their weaknesses, and the bottom line is when you put a hole on your metal roof, it is always a possible fail point. I have an idea of why the flats are getting the nod in recent years, the metal used now is thinner, and deforms much easier than the old galvanized stuff that weighed a ton. I think the metal from 50 years ago stood a much better chance against a guy with a heavy hammer than the stuff nowadays. Yes, you can get thicker Galvalume panels, but the cost is way up there. No way would I try screw the metal I used on my roof through the rib because even with the clutch set properly, when screwing into a softer area of the purlin, I would over drive it. I know, because I have tried in the past. I used to be a ridge guy, but switched to the flats a long long time ago.

If I have a leak through a screw hole it's going to be operator error, not because it's in the flat. And if this is in fact the case, I'll find it come eLL or high wat.........e.....r:laughing:

Yep,
There were various quality levels, of what looked to be the same panel to the average person, even back then.
Even the design of the rolled arches is significant to the strength. That is why we built "wonder arches" to protect
our multi-million dollar aircraft on the ground in hostile places in the world.
Prices have risen and quality has gone down, particularly with the imported stuff that is taking over our economy.
People want cheap and don't want to believe " You get what you pay for" Most have no concept of negotiating a deal.
They think what ever the price is marked is what they have to pay.

At the time of my barns building I was still working 50-60 hours a week so doing the barns couldn't be a DIY project.
One person couldn't handle the size of the material anyway. Morton was the only supplier in the area that could provide
trusses for a 64 foot wide barn completed. The other suppliers had to do it in 2 pieces and scab them together in the field.


I just wanted to clear up your statement.
My barns are not galvanized and the nails do not have lead washers.

I'm sure you will find the source of your leaks. I figured you had done it last summer.
Those roofs are slick, even with just DEW on them so be careful.
A piece of foam rubber can help with the traction if you are on your knees or sitting.

 

[PAGUY]

I have an idea that could be an answer to the problem. When installing a metal roof use the membrane that is used to protect against ice damming at roof edges by cutting strips and attaching to the purlins so that by screwing into the purlin in valley metal roof it would be leak free from under the metal.

 

[MotorSeven]

I did consider running a strip of ice shield 2' wide by 44' half under the main roof & half under the porch roof at the transition(is this what your talking about?). However, if the transition is leaking, it would still run down hit the ice shield run another foot then drip out onto the porch....right?

 

[PAGUY]

Actually I meant strips along each purlin (cut the width of each purlin).

A manufactured product would probably be a big seller for metal roof installation. The combination of rubber/nylon washer on outside of nail/screw and the strip under would make it leakproof.

 

[pacerron]

Actually I meant strips along each purlin (cut the width of each purlin).

A manufactured product would probably be a big seller for metal roof installation. The combination of rubber/nylon washer on outside of nail/screw and the strip under would make it leakproof.

It might help with leaks. There are materials that create a gum seal around punctures like nails/screws.
The problem might be, since his metal is so thin, it would increase the "dimple factor" depressions around the screw seal/head base
that would hold water. Instead of the metal being on a hard surface, like wood, it would be on a soft surface.

Rick, do you know what gauge yours is without the paint?
It looks like 29 gauge or 26 which is a little thicker is common these days.

 

[s219]

I helped an uncle do a pole barn roof about 15 years ago using galvanized panels. Towards the end, we ran out of special roofing screws, so he pulled out some regular sheet metal screws and caulked each one. Those caulked screws have never leaked, but many of the roofing screws have started to leak in the last 1-2 years. Upon examination, it looks like the rubber gaskets have begun to break down.

I have never been real comfortable with metal roofing that gets screwed down through the sheet, even though it should be OK if done right with proper screws. However, we did standing seam on a neighbor's place, and that is a great system. All hidden brackets and snap together crimps, so there are no exposed fasteners. Material cost wasn't bad, but the labor increases quite a bit.

 

[sld]

Installing wet with sealant is an aircraft method to prevent corrosion and leaks.

I would think that would be a good method on a metal roof, but maybe time consuming.