Ford 8n Windsor 351 conversion

[wploetz]

Yes, there are lots of Ford/NH Diesel sitting around. But how cool are they? (not).
I already have a NH Boomer DA-40 Diesel. Wonderful tractor, sounds like a UPS truck.
And if Marvin Baumann can put a turbine and a Windsor 351 in his 8N, maybe there is hope for me yet!

 

[Stimw]

An old V-8 Ford Flathead would have a lot more class than the boat anchor you are considering! And 4-X the hp of a stock tractor.
The original 4 cylinder block is also the frame, how do they get around this?

 

[wploetz]

I am not known for having a lot of class! I agree, but there are other advantages of the small block ford. It is already has 12 volts, parts are cheaper, etc. I really don't care about the HP. I will use restrainst! I sold my flathead V8 for $1325 and I have a 351 Windsor lined up for much less. Plus, I don't have to cut the transmission case for the starter access for the 351 where I would have to for the flathead.
The kit from Awesome Henry has a steel adapter that goes from the transmission to the front motor mounts and front end so that has already been engineered for me.

 

[sixdogs]

He's building a great "street rod" type tractor and it sounds like a great idea and admirable way to show mechanical aptitude, quality of construction and is a great project. That's the kind of talent so many on this site are so good at. Plus, it's relatively low cost fun.

The street rod cars most of us admire are not an exercise in practicality and would not do well driving in the snow but that's never going to happen anyway and is not the point. A cool tractor in a parade or something done just because it can be sone sounds great to me and I look forward to the photos. Lots of photos, please.

 

[wploetz]

Thanks, you are the first encouraging person I have run across on this forum. And I think it can be a little practical too. Can you imagine how much more fun it will be to grade & plow our 3/4 mile driveway? And you like dogs too!

 

[Fordman1981]

I also encouraged you a few post back. I have to say to the guy calling a 351 a boat anchor has no clue. The 351 in my mach 1 is anything but a boat anchor. I know you don't need a High hp 351 for your project but 351's can be a very powerful engine. Isn't the 351 what they ran in NASCAR for a long time? I'm not a NASCAR fan so I don't know for sure. I just want to say again good luck and have fun with your project.

 

[RickB]

I also encouraged you a few post back. I have to say to the guy calling a 351 a boat anchor has no clue. The 351 in my mach 1 is anything but a boat anchor. I know you don't need a High hp 351 for your project but 351's can be a very powerful engine. Isn't the 351 what they ran in NASCAR for a long time? I'm not a NASCAR fan so I don't know for sure. I just want to say again good luck and have fun with your project.

Too bad he wasn't using a 351 Cleveland.

 

[sixdogs]

Thanks, you are the first encouraging person I have run across on this forum. And I think it can be a little practical too. Can you imagine how much more fun it will be to grade & plow our 3/4 mile driveway? And you like dogs too!

Well, don't plan on actually using it to any serious degree unless you have lots of spare parts. You'll bust the rear end, flip it over or get stuck and rotate the thing over on top of yourself. This is an object of art you're building that is pleasing to look at and a highlight of your building skills. Maybe mostly a parade tractor or wagon puller.

I built a wild street rod that is so small I can barely get in and it is is open wheeled, etc., with spotless black paint, polished aluminum and obviously fair weather intensions only. At car shows evey now and then some one will ask me how it is in the snow? Huh? Or. does it have a radio? I say they "didn't have radios back then" and the people nod "OK" and walk away satisfied. Some ask if I drove it there. What?, I'm in a parking lot of a grocery store. Oh, well.

They mean well but don't understand the expression of this type of art. It's why we wax tractors and paint implements that will never see the rain or even get used very often. Remember, we need your build pictures. Take your time and do a first class job.

If it matters, I have thought of putting a Kubota diesel in a 1500 lb street rod but can't figure out the acceleration thing. In a sense I would have to use the engine like a gas engine in that I would have to accelerate to control speed. Diesel trucks do it but tractors are fixed idle and variable ground speed? I keep thinking about it and how to solve the idle and acceleration aspect of a diesel tractor engine in a street-driven application and maybe one day 'll be in your shoes.

 

[wploetz]

Cool. Here is what I found about that. "In 1991, Ford switched from the Cleveland-based small-block V-8 to the venerable 351 “Windsor” engine. Other than minor cylinder head updates over its 18 years of service in NASCAR, the basic Windsor block configuration has remained unchanged. "

It is fun already just batting thoughts around with people. The research has been fun too. I have been gathering info and searching for parts. It started with a 1948 ford 8N, now it is a 1952, better steering gear. I added to the list of requirements the Sherman Over Under so I could get gearing low enough to actually do some work with it at less then supersonic speeds, especially in reverse. Went from modifying the original 4 cylinder to a Flathead V8 from 1950 ford sedan to a 302 to a 351 Windsor from an LTD with only 12,000 miles on it. Added a ROPS to my requirements. I also am trying to figure out if I want to add some type of auxiliary hydraulics, I certainly will have enough power to run a pretty good pump, just not sure about how to go about that. I am going to add a sub-frame from in front of the axle (to mount things) all the way to the read axle, just to tie it all together, hydraulically driven to lift a snow plow at the front.
Anyone with thoughts on a easy or at least straight forward way to add a decent sized pump, reservoir & controls? Wood a small beer keg mounted ahead of the front bumper be a good reservoir? It would look cool. I could clear coat it for a decent finish. Maybe a belt drive pump like a Prince High Pressure Hydraulic Clutch Pump — 2.32Cu In..
Then does there need to be some type of un-loader or pressure relief valve? to reduce pressure build up when the hydraulics are not in use?

 

[Stick895]

Don't forget the wheelie bars!!!

 

[sixdogs]

You can run auxilliary haydraulics off the PTO shaft onto a pump but it might look awkward. You could also run a PTO pump to a hydraulic motor and do other things as well. From the site you linked to--- Marvin Baumann Antique Tractors :: Welcome ---most of these tractors are "lookers" that are clean and sleek and will see limited actual use. The parts in that 8N will not take much abuse and then you'll be taking it apart to replace very expensice and difficult to access things you wished you didn't break. Tractors are no fun to split on July 4th when everyone else is having a picnic.

Building a show tractor is one thing but actually trying to do some of the things you mention are probably more than than 8N can handle. You can beef up everything but the weakest link is the problem that will fail and bend things like a pretzel. A 12,000 lb alloy log chain with one link of grade 30 in the middle will fail at that point and then you have two unusable chains of little use.

You mention to maybe sell at a profit but that is unlikely. Even if you build a lot of them the learning curve and level of passon required probably exceeds that of someone with a day job. I have done these things in cars for decades and only now could turn a profit and that's if I'm lucky. Rule of thumb is you get back 50%-60% of money invested. Labor is for free and I know it's not fair but unless someone is found that wants the exact same combination you built and with their desired of workmanship quality, no dice.

I have done things like this with cars for decades and have learned, the hard way, of the limitations of old and fatigued metal designed and built when the engines of today were unimaginable. The only way I would build a re-powered early Ford with a modern gas engine is for the fun of the experience and the satisfaction of doing a really high quality build. The thrill is in the chase of the build in my view.

This photo from your link look pretty appealing.



He needs to bend the headers up but it looks clean and appealing. With that Sherman trans to gear it down it could pull a hay wagon or pull a rear lawn mower. Plowing would get it dirty or risk damage and, well, that's what I would do with it.

This is appealing--a narrowed Ford for vineyard work. It's very do-able and not a difficult job. A real head turner at the parades.





I would really like to encourage you to do such a build as that website shows so just my two cents here on the practical applications as well.

 

[wploetz]

Can I use my 800 pound box scraper as a wheelie bar?
Also, the 351 Cleveland doesn't fit the adapter kit from Awesome Henry so the 351 Windsor became my motor of choice.
Hey, maybe a turbo diesel in your street rod?

 

[wploetz]

Actually not looking to sell it or as an investment, just for my own pleasure. And thanks everyone for your input.

 

[Verticaltrx]

I also encouraged you a few post back. I have to say to the guy calling a 351 a boat anchor has no clue. The 351 in my mach 1 is anything but a boat anchor. I know you don't need a High hp 351 for your project but 351's can be a very powerful engine. Isn't the 351 what they ran in NASCAR for a long time? I'm not a NASCAR fan so I don't know for sure. I just want to say again good luck and have fun with your project.

I agree, the 351w is arguably the best small block Ford ever built. IMO it has so much more potential than the 302 which everyone seems to love. For those who love the 351c, simply bolt the Cleveland heads on a 351w and you have the same performance with much cheaper and readily available parts.

FWIW, the 351w in my '79 F-150 is making over 400lb-ft of torque just above idle, I wouldn't call that a boat anchor...

 

[ericher69]

Horespower TV did a side by side tear down and rebuilt of Cleveland and Windsor

They then rebuilt Windsor with Cleveland heads and called it Clevor

http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2012-11

 

[Fordman1981]

Too bad he wasn't using a 351 Cleveland.

The 69 mach 1 was. 351W the 351 Cleveland was not available until 1970 in the mach1.

 

[wploetz]

Your 79 F150 351W, what mods did you do?

 

[dave1949]

If it matters, I have thought of putting a Kubota diesel in a 1500 lb street rod but can't figure out the acceleration thing. In a sense I would have to use the engine like a gas engine in that I would have to accelerate to control speed. Diesel trucks do it but tractors are fixed idle and variable ground speed? I keep thinking about it and how to solve the idle and acceleration aspect of a diesel tractor engine in a street-driven application and maybe one day 'll be in your shoes.

This Mother Earth News series on building a 100 mpg vehicle might help. MAX is powered by an 1100cc Kubota turbo diesel.

 

[ovrszd]

I wanna jump in here on the positive side. I'm proud of you for attempting this "out of the box" plan. I'm also sure your Dad would be proud of you as well. He didn't teach you to be a duckling and stay in line. That seems to be the mentality of some of the posts on this thread.

I once bought a new Jeep and with 79 miles on the odometer, sat it on jack stands and cut all the suspension off, everything below the frame. I built a rock crawler and added a Kenne Bell Supercharger to the engine. It would white smoke 37" tires in 2wd on pavement. Why??? Because I wanted to see if I could build a successful rock crawler that would also drive across the U.S. to find those places to play. Did it have restrictions?? Of course. Every build does. That's not the point. The point is to see if a man has the ability and talent to do such a thing. My Jeep was good for my Soul.

Build your tractor. Only request is you post a thread on here marking your progress when you do. :thumbsup:

P.S. When I was a kid my neighbor put a Dodge Hemi V8 in an M Farmall. He used it daily in his farming operation, plowing, discing, mowing hay, baling hay, etc, etc. I thought it was the absolute coolest thing I had ever saw!!!

 

[wploetz]

I like the Jeep and The M projects. Those would be much more than I would be willing to tackle.
There are lot of real talented people out there.
I will post pics as I go. It will take a couple weeks or more to get all the parts here.