Another looking for a welder guidance thread

[IXLR8]

I am getting a bonus this year, about $1000, so that is about my budget. I have an O/A setup I have been using for the last 30 years, self taught, I get the job done but it is not pretty. I tried stick welding about 35 years ago with an old gas powered Lincoln, mid-60's vintage, and didn't have much luck with it. Most of what I will be doing with it is body/exhaust work with an occasional repair to some of my tractor implements, which are generally about 1/4" thick steel or less. If I get good at it, there maybe some .030 steel tubing for art work down the road. Most of what I will be doing is steel, but I think I might want the option to do aluminum, if it doesn't break the bank to get there. I don't see any stainless steel work in my future. I like the way a good TIG weld looks, so that is the direction I am leaning. I understand it will take me more work with TIG than MIG to learn to make a good weld and from quick looking around.. the TIG machine will also cost more. I have a shot at a Miller Syncrowave 300 with all accessories, no bottle, for $800.00, but I only have 60 amp service to my shop and no plans, $$$, to upgrade in near future. I am leaning towards a new inverter machine but I am thinking there are some good used 'old school' machines that would suit my needs for less money, I just need to be educated about them. This will strictly be for personal, occasional, 1-2 times per month use, I am open to new or used, what would you recommend and why. I am also going to need a gas bottle, face shield and most all the accessories that go with arc welding as well, so I need to keep them in mind when spending $$$. I am trying to find a local place to get some arc weld training, but not having much luck. The nearest good welding supply place is about 45 miles from me. I might try what I saw somebody else do, post an add on Craigslist for instruction wanted. Guess I need to decide on MIG or TIG before I get too deep in training. From what I remember reading, with MIG you need different gases for alum and steel, is that true for TIG as well?

TIA

 

[yomax4]

Many on here will be Stick Welding advocates and that's an inexpensive way to weld. For a Grand, You would be looking at a small mig unit with spoolgun for aluminum. The problem with a spoolgun is welding thin aluminum. If you opt for a transformer tig unit you could use the Sync.300 and just not turn it up over 200 amps. Problem with that is you are back to old tig technology with balling the pure tungsten and a large heat affected area. You have a tough research project to find steel and aluminum capabillity for 1K. Good Luck .

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

I think it really depends upon the amount of aluminum welding you plan to do. Yes, TIG uses one gas. MIG two, but it really is going to depend upon how much you plan to weld with steel vs. aluminum. TIG is a slower process. MIG is much faster. For MIG, a small bottle of argon is likely all you will need to keep around, and an 80 cuft. bottle is all you need for that. The rest will likely be steel, unless you plan on fabricating a bunch of specialty equipment. For steel I suggest a minimum of a 125, if not larger. TIG is great, but it's a process that many seasoned stick and mig welders fear...and not everyone can do it, and do it well.

 

[IslandTractor]

I am getting a bonus this year, about $1000, so that is about my budget. I have an O/A setup I have been using for the last 30 years, self taught, I get the job done but it is not pretty. I tried stick welding about 35 years ago with an old gas powered Lincoln, mid-60's vintage, and didn't have much luck with it. Most of what I will be doing with it is body/exhaust work with an occasional repair to some of my tractor implements, which are generally about 1/4" thick steel or less. If I get good at it, there maybe some .030 steel tubing for art work down the road. Most of what I will be doing is steel, but I think I might want the option to do aluminum, if it doesn't break the bank to get there. I don't see any stainless steel work in my future. I like the way a good TIG weld looks, so that is the direction I am leaning. I understand it will take me more work with TIG than MIG to learn to make a good weld and from quick looking around.. the TIG machine will also cost more. I have a shot at a Miller Syncrowave 300 with all accessories, no bottle, for $800.00, but I only have 60 amp service to my shop and no plans, $$$, to upgrade in near future. I am leaning towards a new inverter machine but I am thinking there are some good used 'old school' machines that would suit my needs for less money, I just need to be educated about them. This will strictly be for personal, occasional, 1-2 times per month use, I am open to new or used, what would you recommend and why. I am also going to need a gas bottle, face shield and most all the accessories that go with arc welding as well, so I need to keep them in mind when spending $$$. I am trying to find a local place to get some arc weld training, but not having much luck. The nearest good welding supply place is about 45 miles from me. I might try what I saw somebody else do, post an add on Craigslist for instruction wanted. Guess I need to decide on MIG or TIG before I get too deep in training. From what I remember reading, with MIG you need different gases for alum and steel, is that true for TIG as well?

TIA

Hi Jim, long time no see.

I went through this exact process a few years ago. I can tell you what I ended up with. First, I got an oxyfuel set up. Easy and useful in many ways as you know. I then got an inverter based MIG (Miller Passport). That is probably more machine than I need in terms of toughness etc but it is portable and seemed a good idea at the time as I got it used. I do use it and it is an excellent 110/220 MIG that handles 1/4" easily on 220 and barely on 110. I next talked myself into a Miller Maxstar 150STH, again used, because I had enjoyed TIG in a welding class and that seemed the cheapest non HF entry point. The little Maxstar is also an excellent very portable 110/220 stick machine that tends to be the first thing I reach for when doing field repairs. Sadly I never have used the TIG function but it has a reputation as a very good basic DC TIG unit too (steel only). The STL is the same machine but with lift start only while the STH has HF too. If you want to do aluminum with TIG, prepare yourself for sticker shock. AC TIG machines (from Lincoln or Miller) with even limited capability (less than 1/4" Al) will cost about $2000 ready to weld.

If I were buying something new today I would take a serious look at the new Miller portable multiprocess machine, the Multimatic 200. It is a bit pricier than you are considering but it does have MIG, TIG (DC) and stick. It is essentially the combination of my Passport and my Maxstar STH in a single package that weighs considerably less than the Passport alone. It is also 110/220 so would be very handy. Not designed for heavy duty fabrication but it should be a brilliant one stop shopping solution for general tractor repairs etc. Again, it is pricey at about $1700+ but try to come up with a solid 110/220 MIG, TIG and stick for that budget and it puts things in perspective.

 

[IslandTractor]

Just a comment on TIG v MIG: as you already are familiar with oxyacetylene, I would guess that the TIG learning curve would be easier than the MIG learning curve. MIG has a reputation of being easy but that reputation is based on pulling a trigger and seeing metal deposited. Making a good weld with MIG takes some time to learn. TIG may look harder because of the need to introduce filler independently from the torch but you are already familiar with that sort of welding as it is virtually identical to oxyacetylene hand/eye coordination. Much better control over the weld with TIG than MIG too (at least for less experienced weldors IMO).

Also, think hard about whether you want or need aluminum welding capability. To weld Al properly takes a lot of heat/power and ends up being pretty expensive. Cheap spool guns added to a $1000 MIG machine are not going to allow you to weld 1/4" aluminum if I recall correctly. To do serious aluminum welding means investing a few thousand bucks if you stick with the US manufacturers machines. Everlast and Longevity can get you into Al for maybe half.

 

[deereman75]

I think that if your good at gas welding, tig would be the way to go. I haven't done tig, but I hear it is a lot like gas, and I am fairly good at that. If I was buying a tig, I would look for an old idealarc tig, or Miller 330, dialarc hf, or syncrowave. There are also some nice old hobart units out there. Never ran a hobart tig, but I have used a nice old 300 amp hobart stick, and it was great. If your going to buy new, then I would take a good look at longevity, they have some new tigs that look real good. But really for ac/dc tig, I really do think your best bang for your buck is an old miller, Lincoln, hobart, or possibly an old linde heliarc (also sold as union carbide) I have heard some of the old airco machines are orange painted millers, so that is another option.

 

[mrmikey]

For MIG, a small bottle of argon is likely all you will need to keep around,

TIG=straight argon, MIG=argon/mix usually C02.
IMHO I'd go with a multi-process machine, adding AC TIG with HF is going to add a fair amount of dollars to the price so unless you're really stuck on it I'd do without.
A few months ago I bought a TA 181i, Thermal Arc it's stick, MIG and DC lift TIG, good working machine fro under $1K. An aluminum gun is available as well, not a real heavy duty gun by any stretch but for a home user it works great...Mike

 

[k0ua]

if you are interested in just doing steel TIG welding and have a cheap DC Stick welder you are half way there to a Scratch start TIG machine. That is what I am doing for small thin steel on my Everlast PA160.. Or you can buy the newer PA160sth with hf start and provision for a foot pedal.. i think they are 469 list. See Mark at Everlast, I think he gives a discount for TNB members. I comes with everything but the argon bottle. I am able to weld about anything I have needed to so far with the stick side for heavy steel and the TIG for light work. Your needs may vary, but works for me. As others have said if you can gas weld, I know you can TIG weld.

James K0UA

 

[Shield Arc]

I am getting a bonus this year, about $1000, so that is about my budget. I have an O/A setup I have been using for the last 30 years, self taught, I get the job done but it is not pretty. I tried stick welding about 35 years ago with an old gas powered Lincoln, mid-60's vintage, and didn't have much luck with it. Most of what I will be doing with it is body/exhaust work with an occasional repair to some of my tractor implements, which are generally about 1/4" thick steel or less. If I get good at it, there maybe some .030 steel tubing for art work down the road. Most of what I will be doing is steel, but I think I might want the option to do aluminum, if it doesn't break the bank to get there. I don't see any stainless steel work in my future. I like the way a good TIG weld looks, so that is the direction I am leaning. I understand it will take me more work with TIG than MIG to learn to make a good weld and from quick looking around.. the TIG machine will also cost more. I have a shot at a Miller Syncrowave 300 with all accessories, no bottle, for $800.00, but I only have 60 amp service to my shop and no plans, $$$, to upgrade in near future. I am leaning towards a new inverter machine but I am thinking there are some good used 'old school' machines that would suit my needs for less money, I just need to be educated about them. This will strictly be for personal, occasional, 1-2 times per month use, I am open to new or used, what would you recommend and why. I am also going to need a gas bottle, face shield and most all the accessories that go with arc welding as well, so I need to keep them in mind when spending $$$. I am trying to find a local place to get some arc weld training, but not having much luck. The nearest good welding supply place is about 45 miles from me. I might try what I saw somebody else do, post an add on Craigslist for instruction wanted. Guess I need to decide on MIG or TIG before I get too deep in training. From what I remember reading, with MIG you need different gases for alum and steel, is that true for TIG as well?

TIA

Boy I just don't see how you can get there from here. Too many limitations. Your budget, and your power.
Aluminum Tig welding is the most expensive of all the processes.

 

[lostcause]

your location says midcoast maine, which is also where i fall. problem is, midcoast covers some decent area. i'm about half way between rockland and augusta, so i'm on the border of central and midcoast, but i have the same problem with a good distance to a welding shop. advantage gases / valley and maineoxy have the most loctions, but there is also lynox (outskirts of bangor) and there are some independent shops too - regulator service (augusta).

in looking for instruction, mcst in rockland usually has classes for stick, mig, and tig welding in the evenings. they aren't cheap - probably $200-$300 for a 10~ish week class. if they aren't close then there may be another school that offers them too.

i agree that tig is a great process, though it's the one i use the least, and ultimately the one that i am the least proficient in, since i get so little practice with it. my favorite thing about it is that i have much more control over how much filler metal i add, particularly compared to using wire feed. though i must say that it is my belief that limiting that to your primary / only welding choice for exhaust or body work is not the right choice. unless you are doing restorations on $100k vehicles, i think that using tig for body work and exhaust work is like putting lipstick on a pig. sure, it will work fine, and you will get good results, but it's a lot more tedious process for something that will be hidden under the vehicle, or sanded and covered with filler and paint.

as others have said, the $1k mark is going to be a hard one to hit - even worse where you live. there aren't a lot of pieces of machinery sold used in this state, and many of the ones that are listed are pretty old and used up. my guess is that you will have more luck going to a new import to meet your wants before finding a used domestic unit in your price range. i paid either $800 or $900 (can't remember anymore) used for my miller econotig setup which will do stick and tig on all metals, though it is a very rudimentary machine with virtually no fine tuning control, but the thing that many forget when debating machines is that even a low end machine in your shop is better than not having one at all.

 

[Bday]

Spend the extra money and look at the Lincoln 216. Go Mig, it's so much more versatile than Tig. Mig works great where poor fit up could be an issue. Tig is awesome, but more specialized to certain situations usually not farm related. Mig is great for around the farm issues! Of course you need a spool gun to shoot aluminium, but still mig is more versatile even if you spend more for a spool gun. just my 2 cents!!

 

[IXLR8]

your location says midcoast maine, which is also where i fall. problem is, midcoast covers some decent area. i'm about half way between rockland and augusta, so i'm on the border of central and midcoast, but i have the same problem with a good distance to a welding shop. advantage gases / valley and maineoxy have the most loctions, but there is also lynox (outskirts of bangor) and there are some independent shops too - regulator service (augusta).

in looking for instruction, mcst in rockland usually has classes for stick, mig, and tig welding in the evenings. they aren't cheap - probably $200-$300 for a 10~ish week class. if they aren't close then there may be another school that offers them too.

i agree that tig is a great process, though it's the one i use the least, and ultimately the one that i am the least proficient in, since i get so little practice with it. my favorite thing about it is that i have much more control over how much filler metal i add, particularly compared to using wire feed. though i must say that it is my belief that limiting that to your primary / only welding choice for exhaust or body work is not the right choice. unless you are doing restorations on $100k vehicles, i think that using tig for body work and exhaust work is like putting lipstick on a pig. sure, it will work fine, and you will get good results, but it's a lot more tedious process for something that will be hidden under the vehicle, or sanded and covered with filler and paint.

as others have said, the $1k mark is going to be a hard one to hit - even worse where you live. there aren't a lot of pieces of machinery sold used in this state, and many of the ones that are listed are pretty old and used up. my guess is that you will have more luck going to a new import to meet your wants before finding a used domestic unit in your price range. i paid either $800 or $900 (can't remember anymore) used for my miller econotig setup which will do stick and tig on all metals, though it is a very rudimentary machine with virtually no fine tuning control, but the thing that many forget when debating machines is that even a low end machine in your shop is better than not having one at all.

Lostcause and all,
I want to thank everybody for their input so far, much appreciated, lots to think about. I even had a PM from a brave/foolish guy offering to loan me his TIG machine to try out. For what it is worth, Rockland is 2 towns NE of me. In my experience, Advantage Gases / Valley in Rockland has been a joke to deal with. I work in Hudson MA 3 days a week, spend the rest of the week in Maine. Because of this, I have found the MCST class schedules don't work for me, otherwise I would go there.
From what what I have found so far, to add alum capabilities to TIG in a US based machine adds at about $1000 to the price, to add it to an off-shore brand adds about $300 to the price. You are correct in most cases, using TIG on an exhaust is like putting lipstick on a pig... but I do have a Miura I am restoring... which I think is a nice pig and worthy of a TIG welded exhaust. The key reason for TIG is wife wants to experiment with some metal artwork. She designs, I weld, and we want the welds to look the best we can. I also tend to be a perfectionist, if it means a better looking weld, that takes longer, that is okay as this is for hobby use, not for making any money. Based on every bodies input, I am seriously rethinking the requirement to do alum. I am starting to think that for the expense of adding alum capabilities, and the time to learn alum TIG... I should just hire that out as I don't think it will be all that much alum work. With all the input I have received so far, I am leaning more to TIG than MIG as quality is more important than speed.

 

[Shield Arc]

If you think you can live without the aluminum option, you can poor boy Tig welding with any CC machine. You won't have a foot pedal, but xray welds are made everyday with scratch start Tig rigs. Here is a Tig weld I made with my Tig rig, and my Everlast PowerArc 200 stick welder.
Remember now I'm not much of a Tig weldor.

 

[lostcause]

Lostcause and all,
I want to thank everybody for their input so far, much appreciated, lots to think about. I even had a PM from a brave/foolish guy offering to loan me his TIG machine to try out. For what it is worth, Rockland is 2 towns NE of me. In my experience, Advantage Gases / Valley in Rockland has been a joke to deal with. I work in Hudson MA 3 days a week, spend the rest of the week in Maine. Because of this, I have found the MCST class schedules don't work for me, otherwise I would go there.
From what what I have found so far, to add alum capabilities to TIG in a US based machine adds at about $1000 to the price, to add it to an off-shore brand adds about $300 to the price. You are correct in most cases, using TIG on an exhaust is like putting lipstick on a pig... but I do have a Miura I am restoring... which I think is a nice pig and worthy of a TIG welded exhaust. The key reason for TIG is wife wants to experiment with some metal artwork. She designs, I weld, and we want the welds to look the best we can. I also tend to be a perfectionist, if it means a better looking weld, that takes longer, that is okay as this is for hobby use, not for making any money. Based on every bodies input, I am seriously rethinking the requirement to do alum. I am starting to think that for the expense of adding alum capabilities, and the time to learn alum TIG... I should just hire that out as I don't think it will be all that much alum work. With all the input I have received so far, I am leaning more to TIG than MIG as quality is more important than speed.

i'll wish you good luck in your search. i also haven't had the best of luck with advantage in rockland. my mig came from there and at a great price, but it took a weird set of circumstances to get that price from them. i recently talked with them about a hypertherm plasma, explaining my intent to purchase, and willingness to buy local if the price was even close - it wasn't. everything there seemed a little lackluster. a couple weeks later i was in bangor, and the advantage store there had a great guy behind the counter, so i explained how i was going to purchase one soon, and if i could get a good price... and so on. he came at me with a price nearly $200 better than the rockland store, and was just more personable in general. i ended up buying there.

as far as the miura goes... if that is what i think it is, then the exhaust may well be worth more than any of my entire vehicles i DO expect to see you at the owls head foreign auto festival now. ironically, when i go there i drive a 2 seater european car designed by an italian, but it's not quite in the same class as yours. mine's also not made in italy, but sweden instead.

i can't give you any firsthand knowledge of import tig machines, but if i were unable to find anything used and the big name brands were outside my price range, i think i'd opt for the import. the one thing i would do is to make sure to get the ac and dc capability though. it's a lot of money to spend, but it's even more to have to purchase another later. if you're getting it for hobby / artistic use i would almost guarantee that you will find something aluminum that you would want to weld if you had the capability.

 

[cowski]

60 amp service limits you to about 200 amp with transformer machines.acdc inverters cost more than your budget. my neighbor ,years ago,had a miller econo twin ac/dc with high frequency that worked good for him.i have seen them advertised less than $500.that would leave plenty for a bottle and supplies.miller also makes a econo tig acdc.never been around one but one can be bought less than $1000.for a little more money you can sometimes run across a syncrowave 200.that is what i would recommend.i would not buy a bigger one that you do not have the power to run.try to buy one equipped not stripped.the first two should max out at 3/16 aluminum the last one 1/4 according to miller.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

60 amps will buy you about 300 amps or a little more with an inverter...for stick anyway. TIG will buy a little more. MIG would be between stick and tig demands.

 

[deereman75]

60 amps will buy you about 300 amps or a little more with an inverter...for stick anyway. TIG will buy a little more. MIG would be between stick and tig demands.

You sound dead on, if not a little conservative, I have got 180 amps out of mine on a 30 amp circuit without tripping. It is incredible how efficient the modern inverters are. I would trip the circuit with 125 amps account on a tombstone after 1 rod. If your low on power,(ie less then 40 amps) an inverter is the only real option if your doing serious work. And my 180 amps was with a fairly high ocv stick machine. One of these days I am going to hook an ammeter up to see what it really is drawing, and see if it's output display is spot on.

 

[CNC Dan]

. One of these days I am going to hook an ammeter up to see what it really is drawing, and see if it's output display is spot on.

I did that with an everlast and a longevity inverter stick welders.
Both were within 5% of the display.
Haven't got a chance to measure the AC input yet.

 

[medic0648]

If you'd be willing to go to PA there is usually a lot of good machines on eBay in PA for good prices in the 300amp range from the big names. Most are 60-70s models.

 

[IXLR8]

After a bit of research, and really examining my needs vs possible maybe wants, I have decided to eliminate TIG welding alum from my requirements. I am going to stay with TIG for quality of the weld appearance. Most of my welding will be thin wall, mild steel and chrome-moly tubing, .025-.050", with an occasional repair of 1/4" thick tractor attachments. Will something like a Miller Maxstar 160 handle that range of material or would you recommend stepping up to a more powerful unit? I am also leaning towards something new so I have a warranty, just in case. Also, I have no arc welding experience so I am not sure how effective I would be checking out a used machine. I would rather spend a little more and get everything I need at once, not scrounging up pieces here and there, even if it means taking a little longer to save up for it.