Looking for some Pole Barn framing suggestions

[sdkubota]

Makes me wonder how anything got done "back in the day" before these engineers??

If done right, you can build your own trusses and not have a single of issues. I am 100% certain of that. I built my own for my pole barn. And dad has a machine-shed that has homemade trusses that has stood for about 60 years now. It most certainly CAN be done successfully

The science of engineering is to evaluate materials for strength and then place those materials to support a load safely. It isn't magic but it is based on science. Many backyard projects can be over built and not suffer failure but there is a waste of materials that weren't needed and didn't add anything to the required strength. Engineering identifies how much load any member may experience and what size member is needed to safely resist those anticipated loads.

Engineered lumber is 3 times as strong as what is found in the lumberyard. Engineered lumber is graded to prevent knots or other inherit lumber faults to be eliminated in critical tension members. Yours might still be standing but I can gaurantee there have been 1000 collapse for everyone that doesn't. Not sure of your potential for snow in your area but will state you are living on a wing and prayer. Good luck!

 

[LD1]

The science of engineering is to evaluate materials for strength and then place those materials to support a load safely. It isn't magic but it is based on science. Many backyard projects can be over built and not suffer failure but there is a waste of materials that weren't needed and didn't add anything to the required strength. Engineering identifies how much load any member may experience and what size member is needed to safely resist those anticipated loads.

Engineered lumber is 3 times as strong as what is found in the lumberyard. Engineered lumber is graded to prevent knots or other inherit lumber faults to be eliminated in critical tension members. Yours might still be standing but I can gaurantee there have been 1000 collapse for everyone that doesn't. Not sure of your potential for snow in your area but will state you are living on a wing and prayer. Good luck!

I would rather overbuild something and waste a little material than waste my hard earned money just to have someone else make it and tell me it wont fail.

The 30' span scissor trusses I made for my pole barn would have cost me $100ea. I made all of them (14) in a day with only $30 in material for each one.

How many structures being built today with this "engineered" crap is going to last as long as barns built 100+ years ago???

When we had our blizzard in 2008, My barn handled it just fine. But I know of one that collapsed about 5 miles down the road with "engineered" trusses. Go figure.

Let me venture a guess here: In your opinion, you probabally think that someone building a simple 10 x 12 yard barn should probabally hire an engineer to approve his 2x6 rafters and to make sure they are "engineered" boards??

 

[sdkubota]

I would rather overbuild something and waste a little material than waste my hard earned money just to have someone else make it and tell me it wont fail.

The 30' span scissor trusses I made for my pole barn would have cost me $100ea. I made all of them (14) in a day with only $30 in material for each one.

How many structures being built today with this "engineered" crap is going to last as long as barns built 100+ years ago???

When we had our blizzard in 2008, My barn handled it just fine. But I know of one that collapsed about 5 miles down the road with "engineered" trusses. Go figure.

Let me venture a guess here: In your opinion, you probabally think that someone building a simple 10 x 12 yard barn should probabally hire an engineer to approve his 2x6 rafters and to make sure they are "engineered" boards??

A short span building is not the same as a long span and doubt you would need any engineering. If you have such contempt for the profession, you should consider taking "engineering" out of your occupation listing. You do realize using that term without the proper accredidation and licensure is illegal.

 

[LD1]

A short span building is not the same as a long span and doubt you would need any engineering. If you have such contempt for the profession, you should consider taking "engineering" out of your occupation listing. You do realize using that term without the proper accredidation and licensure is illegal.

Wow, somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. I am all for doing things safely. BUT, we dont need to have an "engineer" stamp on everything. This whole website is about doing things yourself. And building trusses is something that can be DIY IMO. AND if done correctly, there is NOTHING wrong with it. I dont know the OP's skills, and I am sure he knows the risks. If he is comfortable doing it himself, I am not going to argue with him.

AS to your last comment There is nothing illegal about what I have. Even if I didnt have proper accreditation, it dont matter. This is a free public forum. I could tell you I'd a nuclear scientist if I wanted and it still isnt illegal. There is more than one type of engineer FYI.

And I will make this promise: If I give ANYONE on here bad advise, and whatever they are doing fails because of my advise, I will refund 100% of what they paid for my advise

 

[mx842]

A pole barn does not really stiffen up solid until you put on the siding. Once your siding is on and screwed properly the building will be able to withstand the normal movements from heat, cold, wet and dry periods with no problems. The most common problems with foundations are with shrink swell type soils where the soil expands when it is wet and contracts when it dries out. You don't have this problem but depending just how close to the surface the shale material is could present problems especially in traditional pole barn construction. If the hard shale is very close to the surface you may have no choice but to drill holes and install anchor bolts or drill holes large enough to put rebar in and seal around. Either way can be done easy enough with a good hammer drill and masonry or rock bit. Just pouring a 12" round pier on top of the shale probably wont cut it unless you anchor it somehow to the shale. I guess also, if the shale is solid enough you could even anchor the post directly on top of the shale if you could find the right kind of anchor bolts either way you still need to connect what ever, either concrete pier or post directly sitting on the shale with a good connection point to hold it in place.

 

[john_bud]

If I don't want to pay several thousand dollars to have 20+ holes drilled through the shale for the 6x6's, and I don't want to put in a complete foundation with footing, what are my options? Can I sit the poles on footer blocks directly on the shale and compensate for the poles only being 2 feet in the ground with extra diagonal bracing in between the 6x6's ? Or is sheathing the whole building in osb required to get the same stability as a buried pole?

I
-H.

Just had one put up. The crew that did it had a hydraulic 24" auger on a track skid steer. Like you, we have soil then shale. They had no problem. I just posted a thread on the build. 36x48x12. They were in and out in 2 days. The build used laminated posts. I think it's both cheaper and more stable than 6x6's.

I was going to build mine myself but time crunch happened. But I found a crew that was basically only 500-1000 more than the parts costs. And they did a vastly superior job of it than I would have and in a tiny fraction of the time!

 

[john_bud]

And I will make this promise: If I give ANYONE on here bad advise, and whatever they are doing fails because of my advise, I will refund 100% of what they paid for my advise

Always good to see someone standing behind their free advice!

Like you, my advice is 100% guaranteed*.







*Guaranteed to be advice! Not right. Not smart. Heck, probably not even safe!

 

[LD1]

Always good to see someone standing behind their free advice!

Like you, my advice is 100% guaranteed*.







*Guaranteed to be advice! Not right. Not smart. Heck, probably not even safe!

:laughing: BINGO :drink:

 

[BeezFun]

Never, never, never attempt to "build" your own roof trusses. Lumber used in them is engineer rated and comes from old growth forests. If you go to the lumberyard and build your own they will collapse. I am 100% certain. Just a tip.

Not sure where you're getting your info, but I'm looking at the truss specification sheet for my building and it's made from SPF No 2 lumber, same stuff they sell off the shelf at Menards. These are 32' trusses designed for 25psf snow load. I think you're mixing terms in a way that is confusing. Lumber carries a grade stamp (like SPF No 2), but I don't know what "engineer rated lumber" would mean in this context because the grading is done by the timber industry. Engineers do provide a stamp indicating that the design of the truss meets some set of building codes for certain conditions and doing those calculations is probably beyond the ability of the average homeowner. But saying that you can't buy the same material that is used in trusses is not correct. I would agree that designing a long span truss probably falls in the same category as doing your own brain surgery, in both cases you'll save money but the outcome may not be as planned.

 

[sdkubota]

Not sure where you're getting your info, but I'm looking at the truss specification sheet for my building and it's made from SPF No 2 lumber, same stuff they sell off the shelf at Menards. These are 32' trusses designed for 25psf snow load. I think you're mixing terms in a way that is confusing. Lumber carries a grade stamp (like SPF No 2), but I don't know what "engineer rated lumber" would mean in this context because the grading is done by the timber industry. Engineers do provide a stamp indicating that the design of the truss meets some set of building codes for certain conditions and doing those calculations is probably beyond the ability of the average homeowner. But saying that you can't buy the same material that is used in trusses is not correct. I would agree that designing a long span truss probably falls in the same category as doing your own brain surgery, in both cases you'll save money but the outcome may not be as planned.

Try structural grade then but it doesn't matter...you have two forum members that gave everyone a warranty because theirs haven't collapsed yet. Print out that post and keep it in your safe.

 

[LD1]

Try structural grade then but it doesn't matter...you have two forum members that gave everyone a warranty because theirs haven't collapsed yet. Print out that post and keep it in your safe.

:confused2::confused2:

 

[doohicky]

I guess we should have NEVER EVER used trees as rafters for our one equipment shed then. They were sorta straight but had knots in them, and were tapered. It was up for 25 years and then came down to make way for a larger HOME MADE 32 x 70 shed.

 

[sdkubota]

(Facepalm)

Carry on...natural selection shouldn't be tampered with.

 

[LD1]

Makes me wonder how we ever got anything done years ago without a civil engineer to give permission?

 

[sdkubota]

Makes me wonder how we ever got anything done years ago without a civil engineer to give permission?

Why do you have it listed under your occupation? Maybe you should call yourself a brain surgeon and make some serious $$$ or airline pilot or attorney ...

 

[LD1]

Why do you have it listed under your occupation? Maybe you should call yourself a brain surgeon and make some serious $$$ or airline pilot or attorney ...

I dont have civil engineer listed for an occupation. There is more than one type of engineer.

I think we got off on the wrong foot here. And I probabally didnt help matters any but thats just me

So in interest of taking the higher ground here (since I dont know you and you dont know me), lets start over. I think we can agree to disagree on this topic and no since in beating a dead horse. Cause it aint gonna get any deader.

Some people feel more comfortable doing or designing things without an engineer. Tables and formulas are out there for everyone to use if they are comfortable and like doing their own "homework". I am one of those. I know how to look up load ratings of different things, and apply the formulas and math to it. Sure, if anything goes wrong I have no-one to blame but myself. Others may not feel comfortable doing this. And I certainly wont advocate anyone doing anything they arent comfortable with. But barns have been built for YEARS without "engineering" stamp of approval. Some can do it, others cant.

I do respect your opinion as a civil engineer though. I am sure you have to deal with hundreds of people like me that "think they know it all". And I am sure that must be tough. No to metion that it is your way of life.

But when you stop and think about it, anything and everything you could possibly do youself at home, there is a professional that could do it. If you talk to an arborist, he will ALWAYS advise you have a professional cut down "that" tree and not attemp yourself. If you call an excavation company, they will ALWAYS advise that you hire that trenching done and not attempt yourself. If you talk to a remodeler, he will always advise you hire a professional to do you bathroom. If you talk to an electrician....you get the idea. So...its nothing against you or any other civil engineer, and its not just the profession either. Certain people have a "knack" for certain things. And peoples comfort levels are different too.

For me personally, I have NO problems desiging my own building. From trusses to I-beams for the loft to floor joists for the loft. I have no reservations doing my own plumbing and electric and pouring te floor. While others may be different.

Maybe this will help you a little to understand where I am coming from on my side of the fence. Maybe not. But it is worth a try and maybe we can call a truce?? Because none of this is good for anyone.

 

[hkhi]

BACK TO THE TASK AT HAND.


Any thoughts on pros and cons of having premix delivered vs mixing sacks of 4000lb quickcrete bags in a Lowes 3 cuft mixer? Since we're doing everything ourselves, it's more convenient to mix bags and not have to rush around while worrying about paying a concrete guy to wait for you. That way we can fill each footer as time allows.

 

[sdkubota]

BACK TO THE TASK AT HAND.


Any thoughts on pros and cons of having premix delivered vs mixing sacks of 4000lb quickcrete bags in a Lowes 3 cuft mixer? Since we're doing everything ourselves, it's more convenient to mix bags and not have to rush around while worrying about paying a concrete guy to wait for you. That way we can fill each footer as time allows.

I think the delivered would be better and contain larger aggregate. Problem is the delivery chanrge is normally high regardless of how little you order.

 

[sdkubota]

I dont have civil engineer listed for an occupation. There is more than one type of engineer.

I think we got off on the wrong foot here. And I probabally didnt help matters any but thats just me

So in interest of taking the higher ground here (since I dont know you and you dont know me), lets start over. I think we can agree to disagree on this topic and no since in beating a dead horse. Cause it aint gonna get any deader.

Some people feel more comfortable doing or designing things without an engineer. Tables and formulas are out there for everyone to use if they are comfortable and like doing their own "homework". I am one of those. I know how to look up load ratings of different things, and apply the formulas and math to it. Sure, if anything goes wrong I have no-one to blame but myself. Others may not feel comfortable doing this. And I certainly wont advocate anyone doing anything they arent comfortable with. But barns have been built for YEARS without "engineering" stamp of approval. Some can do it, others cant.

I do respect your opinion as a civil engineer though. I am sure you have to deal with hundreds of people like me that "think they know it all". And I am sure that must be tough. No to metion that it is your way of life.

But when you stop and think about it, anything and everything you could possibly do youself at home, there is a professional that could do it. If you talk to an arborist, he will ALWAYS advise you have a professional cut down "that" tree and not attemp yourself. If you call an excavation company, they will ALWAYS advise that you hire that trenching done and not attempt yourself. If you talk to a remodeler, he will always advise you hire a professional to do you bathroom. If you talk to an electrician....you get the idea. So...its nothing against you or any other civil engineer, and its not just the profession either. Certain people have a "knack" for certain things. And peoples comfort levels are different too.

For me personally, I have NO problems desiging my own building. From trusses to I-beams for the loft to floor joists for the loft. I have no reservations doing my own plumbing and electric and pouring te floor. While others may be different.

Maybe this will help you a little to understand where I am coming from on my side of the fence. Maybe not. But it is worth a try and maybe we can call a truce?? Because none of this is good for anyone.

We actually have many things in common based on your bio. Probably be good friends if we lived close and at the very least beer drinking buds. Believe me, I don't engineer everything I do but have been around buildings, construction, and building failures enough to know what problems may lie ahead given certain circumstances. Sometimes even when everything is done correct, there are still problems. I normally am screamed at by irate contractors and ignored by paying clients so I don't see why we can't start over on better terms. By the way...my hide is pretty thick and generally don't take criticism to heart. Punch me in the face, make disparaging comments about my mother, and I could still have a beer and forgive and forget.
:drink:

 

[Cat_Driver]

I think the delivered would be better and contain larger aggregate. Problem is the delivery chanrge is normally high regardless of how little you order.

I just went through this with a small load last week. After doing all the numbers, from getting a bring home load of concrete in a trailer mixer, to having the load brought in, from mixing it myself, to pre bagged mix.

Price only varied by $100.00 one way of another and the bring my own would have been cheaper but by the time I left a huge deposit, cleaning charge, bringing it back and forth....it wasn't worth saving the $100.00.

The one plus with mixing it myself is I was able to take my time and not feel rushed by a truck driver, and I was able to add as much fiberglass fibers as I wanted.

Really wasn't that bad after all was done. The one thing that helped was I used a SPADE NOSE on my skid steer. I mixed the concrete in the bucket and if you see the bucket it has a very narrow point on the bucket. It was brilliant for pin point accuracy when dumping the mix.

My spade bucket has larger sides like a wheelbarrow, but here's an ideas.

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