Low hour diesel engine failure.

lilranch2001 · Jul 28, 2012

ORCM said:
So, its been so long that I don't know what information I've posted on here. Anyway long story short, the drive line broke and hit the steering valve and the housing started leaking. So I pulled it out to check the housing to see where it was leaking. I found a couple of bolts lose, so I re-torqued them to see if that would fix the problem. Well here's the part where I screwed up, when I put it back in I reversed two of the hoses on the steering valve (Really pissed at myself, but that’s what happens when you’re doing it at 10pm.). There is a flow through circuit through the valve, and the one hose I swapped was the supply. The supply was now dead-headed so it was putting a load on the pump from the start, thus putting too much load on the motor to start up. This was the initial problem, so there was really nothing wrong with anything else. I couldn't get it to start, and not thinking that the hydraulics had anything to do with it I called the dealer to come get it.

So now the dealer has it, and I told them EVERYTHING (Yes including the valve.) that has happened and what I had checked (Mainly electrical.). They told me that they would check everything, which made me kind of mad because I didn't want to pay them to check something that I already checked. So they went to work on it, they had it over a month and a half test the electrical, and then the fuel systems. Also messing with the injector timing a lot. According to the first service manager (The one that was fired.) he told me a couple times that they had it running a little bit, and thought they were getting close to having it running again. The first time I saw it in their shop, they had the cover plate off the injector pump. Oh yeah, the radiator and hydraulic cooler were off the tractor too. So they probably were running it a little with this hardware off the tractor. I have no doubt in my mind that this is where the motor damage happened. I had never over heated the tractor, and now the head is warped.. Rings are all stuck, and the valves are jacked up.

So they get the motor back together and get it running, and at this point they haven't figured out the hoses are on there wrong. So they run it for a while, find that the steering is not working right. So this is when they find they hoses are on there wrong. They fix this and the steering works fine, but now the hydraulic lines are getting hot. So they then find a bunch of brass in the filter screen, which indicates the pump is jacked up. They rebuild the pump, and supposedly everything is working/running fine. I must note, that I am going off what they have told me. So, what happened behind the seen I do not know. Or what lies I have been told. Remember first they said I dump gas in it.

I fully admit the I missed up on those hoses, but they instant on re-checked my electrical testing. Why didn't they re-check my work on the valve? They are "Factory trained" Deere techs., and they charge $95hr for their work. Any damage that happens behind their doors, they should be responsible for correct?

It does make you wonder what they teach at those Deere factory trained sessions...... Beer drinking 101?

ORCM · Jul 28, 2012

lilranch2001 said:
It does make you wonder what they teach at those Deere factory trained sessions...... Beer drinking 101?

:drink:

I have a meeting today with the manager at 3pm. I am defenatly not paying for any of the motor work, and I'm really thinking I shouldn't pay for the hydralic problems either. Everyone I have talk to about this, and including what you guys are saying is I should demand a different tractor/new motor.. Over all I think I've been pretty cool about the whole thing, I haven't gotten irate or cussed them out. I think most people that have not had their tractor for over three months, probably would have done one of these at this point.

Zebrafive · Jul 28, 2012

I hope all comes out to the good for you. I can understand them wanting to recheck you trouble shooting work. You may not have done things the the same way they would and they would want to know from their own testing where they stand. Since you told them you worked on the steering valve, they should have KNOWN to check your work. Tractor was fine until you worked on the steering valve. Now it will not start. That's the first thing I would have checked. Since you told them about your working on the valve they have no excuses. The shop should have insurance to cover their mistakes. Time for them to make a claim and make things right. If they are self insured, they may fight it, but they caused the damage time for them to make it right.

kuboman · Jul 28, 2012

Well I will likely be the odd one out here but I think you are the one to blame. You handed the dealer a puzzle with no clear picture to follow and expect him to just find your screw up right off the bat. Come on, put yourself in that situation and I bet you would do no better. And to expect them to pick up the whole tab.

ullinghair:

megaboz · Jul 28, 2012

kuboman said:
Well I will likely be the odd one out here but I think you are the one to blame. You handed the dealer a puzzle with no clear picture to follow and expect him to just find your screw up right off the bat. Come on, put yourself in that situation and I bet you would do no better. And to expect them to pick up the whole tab.ullinghair:

Well he did tell the dealer what he did. But seems to me that the dealer was the one that screwed up the engine.

Diesel engines are fairly simple, somewhere they should have noticed the extra load or something.

Spraying ether into an engine that is getting fuel doesn't seem to be a smart thing to do.

Also if they were running it with no cooling, again not a smart thing to do.

They probably should have benched the engine and they would have known then that the motor was fine.

Of course pointing fingers and blame is always easier in hind sight.

ORCM · Jul 28, 2012

kuboman said:
Well I will likely be the odd one out here but I think you are the one to blame. You handed the dealer a puzzle with no clear picture to follow and expect him to just find your screw up right off the bat. Come on, put yourself in that situation and I bet you would do no better. And to expect them to pick up the whole tab.ullinghair:

I didn't say I should not pay anything, I just think I should pay for parts of the problems that I didn't cause. They get paid big bucks an hour, and should not damage the equipment when they are working on it.

Cpjlube · Jul 28, 2012

Switch the steering hoses, this causes the motor to be unable to start up due to the load from the pump. If the OP's description of previous work wasn't relayed properly to the techs, this tractor becomes their nightmare. I bet less than 10% of JD techs would find this problem in a timely fashion if they were never told of the initial problem. Obviously there was a series of errors that lead up to the result. Diagnosis, turning into guessing. Then at some point it was run hot.

Give the new service manager the opportunity to make this right. I'm not sure a new tractor is viable. Even a complete motor might be more than they are willing to go for. A complete rebuild with a warranty might be doable. There has been no harsh words yet and that may work to the OPs advantage. Of course, if they can't find a solution there is always the courts.

Chuck

ORCM · Jul 28, 2012

So, I talked to the Manager (Nice guy). Told him that I'm sure that all the motor damage happened out in their shop. I said there was no issues with my tractor before, and it ran fine. I basically told him that I would be willing to pay for my screw up with the steering valve, because I obviously have responsibility for that. I told him I was going off the information that I was told, which the reliability of that is questionable with the old service manager. So basically I have to go on what my own evidence, and understanding the situation. He really didn't say too much about it, and just said he couldn't authorize this on his own. He has to call his boss to get approval for this. He is losing his position in a month with the new company takes over, so he has to run big decisions by the powers that be. So I should find out Monday.. I haven't had my tractor for over 3 months, and I really need to mow my lawn.

Code54 · Jul 28, 2012

Wow -I hope they pick up a nice sized part and make it right for you. Good luck!

yelbike · Jul 28, 2012

I would not want a rebuilt engine, op had a low hour tractor that would have likely lasted longer him. I agree it was a really tough trouble shooting job, but using ether......on a such a new,low hour machine, thats just reckless. ( I bet thats not in any Deere training manual)
I can understand them tearing the cooling system off, but running the engine for more than only a few seconds( maybe a minute or two at most) is asking for it to overheat.....again reckless.

I would talk to the Deere field rep rather then the dealer. I would tell the rep you've lost all confidence in the dealership. It s not like you took the tractor to a back yard mechanic, you expected to pay dollar for top dollar workmanship, instead you got recklessness. I would put the ball back in his court. I'd push for a new machine, definitely not rebuilt pump or rebuilt engine.

Don't feel bad about switching the hydraulic lines. I come across that all the time, as a good tech, my job is to find the problem without burning the homeowners house done.

clemsonfor · Jul 28, 2012

This is the problem with new things and dealerships. They want to satisfy a customer, but also want to make money. They will lie and say things to cover themselves and you will never know or prove it unless its documented. This thing is still under warrenty right?

I would talk to a regional guy in Deere fast and let them know your not impressed with thier service, timewise and mecanical ability of the pros. The vavle was the problem, but like you said a few failed starting attempts will not pit the valves and seize the rings in it, this has to be from shop neglect. You can say you will pay a few hours labor to diagnose and repair the valve but you cant possibly be responsible for engine damage cause by eccessive cranking and possible "starting aids" being used, which you know is obvious from the pitted valves warped head (know its not over heated from the swapped hoses and deadheading pump). Also the pump could be your problem, it could be tearing up on the second crank deadheading?

Hope its resolved for the good.

jenkinsph · Jul 29, 2012

Since the tractor was under warranty why did you have to work on it at all? Seems that the steering valve repair and hose reversal and ultimately the engine problems could have all been a dealer problem without muddying the waters.

As a technician business owner selling and maintaining equipment with warranties I can say for a fact that I don't wan't the homeowners and myself both working on the equipment I am responsible for. Better to have the dealership do the wrenching under warranty and then take over afterwards if you wan't to.

Sure hope everyone can step up and be fair to all involved, hope you can get your tractor home soon.

ORCM · Jul 29, 2012

clemsonfor said:
This is the problem with new things and dealerships. They want to satisfy a customer, but also want to make money. They will lie and say things to cover themselves and you will never know or prove it unless its documented. This thing is still under warrenty right?

I would talk to a regional guy in Deere fast and let them know your not impressed with thier service, timewise and mecanical ability of the pros. The vavle was the problem, but like you said a few failed starting attempts will not pit the valves and seize the rings in it, this has to be from shop neglect. You can say you will pay a few hours labor to diagnose and repair the valve but you cant possibly be responsible for engine damage cause by eccessive cranking and possible "starting aids" being used, which you know is obvious from the pitted valves warped head (know its not over heated from the swapped hoses and deadheading pump). Also the pump could be your problem, it could be tearing up on the second crank deadheading?

Hope its resolved for the good.

No out of warrenty.

Not knowning much about the pump, and what exactly happened in the shop I can't say were the pump damage started. I do know that I was in there when they got the motor back together for the second time, that they started it for about 10-15 secs. The Tech. told me that he had run it before, after he got it back together (Note:radiator, and hydralic cooler were off. Which confuses me, because if the lines were off the fluid should be shooting out.). I would think they would have waited to hook the drive line up until they had tested the motor out. Come to find out these motors are all aluminum, so it wouldn't take long to heat them up.

I've thought long and hard about this, and ask people that I respect their oppions. I was think of paying some for the pump, but since they jack the motor up and I've put up with their shop drama. I have decided not pay for any of it. Other than my screw up with the valve.

lilranch2001 · Jul 29, 2012

What a total clusterf...!

logankelly · Jul 29, 2012

If you do not get satisfaction spend the $25.00-$35.00 small claims court and once they get served a summons then see what John Deere does to solve your problem. Work twice for me a few years ago with the people with the orange tractors

Gator6x4 · Jul 29, 2012

ORCM said:
No out of warrenty.

I've thought long and hard about this, and ask people that I respect their oppions. I was think of paying some for the pump, but since they jack the motor up and I've put up with their shop drama. I have decided not pay for any of it. Other than my screw up with the valve.

Given that you have admitted starting the tractor down the slippery slope to the junk yard by switching the hoses and destroying the pump, then probably deliverying to the dealer without disclosing your previous attemps at repairs might make a "I have decided not pay for any of it" stance not a good one to adopt when talking to the dealer. It sounds like now that more information has been provided a ton of mistakes in attempting to repair the unit have been made.

Did you tell the dealer this is what I did and then the motor locked up when you delivered it to the dealer for service?

lilranch2001 · Jul 29, 2012

Gator6x4 said:
Given that you have admitted starting the tractor down the slippery slope to the junk yard by switching the hoses and destroying the pump, then probably deliverying to the dealer without disclosing your previous attemps at repairs might make a "I have decided not pay for any of it" stance not a good one to adopt when talking to the dealer. It sounds like now that more information has been provided a ton of mistakes in attempting to repair the unit have been made.
Did you tell the dealer this is what I did and then the motor locked up when you delivered it to the dealer for service?

I believe, that had you read the whole thread, you would have noticed that when the dealer picked the unit up, he had disclosed to the service manager that he had worked on the pump. At that point the dealer should have looked at that aspect of the issue.

DK35vince · Jul 29, 2012

lilranch2001 said:
I believe, that had you read the whole thread, you would have noticed that when the dealer picked the unit up, he had disclosed to the service manager that he had worked on the pump. At that point the dealer should have looked at that aspect of the issue.

Maybe, But we are only hearing one side of the story.
If an owner worked on the tractor while under warranty that led to many of the problems caused later, warranty may not cover a thing.

ORCM · Jul 30, 2012

I not only told the service manager, I also told the Tech. that first worked on it. He called me and I told him everything that had happend, I also told some of the othe mechanics that worked on it.

It sounds like this period has been a transition period for them, and I can't help it if the dealer has employee issues. After talking to some of the Techs., it sounded like the 2 or 3 of the previous Techs. couldn't wait to get out of there, and followed the old service manager (The one manager that got fired, that took the place of.).

Like I told them, I have proof that the tractor was runing fine just a couple of weeks before that, because it was into another dealer to get the shaft repaired. You have to remember that they had it over a month and a half before they even tore the motor down, so what were they doing with it then? A. Not much, and just letting it sit there (which is not what they told me.). OR B. Jacking with it for a month and a half. They were telling my things like "I think we almost have it, it blowing out white smoke now instead of black." "Its runing longer than it did before".

Yep you are hearing one side of the story, but I'm also sure I wasn't hearing the whole story..