Ideas for felling this tree

[tbutman]

I always grab the trees with broken tops or the blow downs before cutting my big healthy stuff it's all about wood lot management and keeping your forest clean and healthy. I assume your interested in that blow down for the firewood is that correct?

 

[cqaigy2]

The picture I'm seeing is that of limb size on the Hemlock and the Hemlock has very little to do with this hanger but the root ball is what is supporting this cantilever.

If the tree isn't causing a danger to human or animal life I wouldn't touch it and let nature take its course. How many owls would we suspect may perch on that snag watching for rodents before it finally gives way sometime in our life.

And before we know it a seed will lodge in the root ball void to be nourished by leaf litter and another species will emerge to prevent erosion on that steep hill side just as the fallen tree did for years.

I agree, this would be the best use of that tree.

 

[arrow]

If you cannot invent a suitable and reliable support for the root ball, ( trust me, it is meaningless to attempt to put dirt back in thinking it is enough of support) then I'd have to agree with 20-20. Have it done. A skidder with a 20 ton winch brings a whole different meaning to this scenario. When this type of fall occured, we'd prop up the tree (root ball) with the skidder if they were small enough to drop (4-10" dbh) we'd side cut them on both sides first (about 2" deep) and then notched and felled them. With a big tree, we never did that. If the winch couldn't pull the rest of the tree down enough to cut the crown off, we'd notch the trees as if they were going to fall side ways and then winched them over until they snapped off. With this method, it was not important to prop up the ball as no one was close enough to get hurt. With the side notching, the tree still supported the root ball. Then it was simply positioning the winch to pull it sideways. These winches were strong enough to snap a 9" tree all by themselves without any cut. The smaller skidders could snap a 6" tree. The safest way to do this job is to have the correct equipment. Some things were not meant for the homeowner , as independent as he may feel, to go up against. Use your head here until you either know your chances of getting hurt are nil if you do the job. Your chances of not getting hurt are excellent if you have it done. That's the only part you know for sure.

 

[newbury]

Interesting problem.
With the apprehension of the OP I think C4 or a black powder charge applied about where the tree splits would be appropriate. It would leave two stems to come down and the separate rootball.

However based on

if I was to try and take it down with the OP's assets (pole saw, chainsaw, tractor, ropes, chains, lots of apprehension) I'd toss ropes over the stems sightly down from where it's hung in the hemlock and then slightly above. Tie those off with tension so I could cut between them with the pole saw (looks like they are only about 4" to 6" thick up there) and be sure the top pieces pulled away and didn't drop on my head and the bottom pieces didn't do anything wild. Then clean up the top pieces, let the bottom pieces stand up if they needed to, then make them small.

If the entire base is 18" across before the split then the two stems look to be be less than 8" each slightly after the split.

If I didn't have the OP's apprehension I'd tie the two stems about a foot above the split to that nearest small hemlock up high so it was bent over a bit, tight enough so when I cut the stems they would be pulled over to it. Then I'd use my 660 to slice the stems about 6" above the split.

But before you do anything have two chainsaws, so when you pinch one you can cut it out with the other.

 

[crazyal]

I know how I would do it, done it plenty of times. But me trying to tell you how to is not going to me much help if something goes wrong. When I say "goes wrong" I don't mean deadly unexpected wrong but something like the tree shifts or you pinch your bar. Small things that will require you to change your plan, once you start you really can't come back here and ask for advice easily.

Are both trees hung up or just one? If just one, which one? Can you get your bar in to cut the bottom tree from the top or are they too tight? Do you feel comfortable making a plunge cut if they are too tight? If you cut the top tree first which way will it want to go when it hits the bottom tree? You said something about being steep, once you cut either tree will the butt of either tree kick up? Are you the nervous type (will the sudden movement of the root ball flopping back into it's hole cause you to react even though you expect it)?

Those are the kinds of questions I would ask myself before starting to cut them.

 

[Tollster]

I took it a different way today as I woke up on the other side of the bed. I simply went out today and said I have so many issues going on with this such as the counter weight root ball, the compression, tension with the hang up, the cliff edge and areas of safey being limited.
I said to myself, what if I could at the very least remove any of those issues perhaps one at a time,so that any additonal problems can be clearly identified without compounding another problem? And err of a conservative approach?
With that in mind I placed a cableon the tree out towards the hemlock on the bottom lead, and ran the cable from the angle of the picture above. Hook up to the toyota and pulled....did not move it an inch. So I ask myself if perhaps I can tie off on the upper lead and rotate it out of the hemlock? I was able to break off the upper leader. Then with that done,I tied off one more time only further towards the top of the oak hoping for more leverage. It rolled off the hemlock...and actually pulled the toy backwards about a foot in the process.
Now I eliminated the hemlock and the main leader is much close to the ground, I just have to clear of a safety zone for cutting it off the root ball. There is no dubt in my mind the root ball is gonna flop back to where it was now. With that in mind I want to clear the area in the picture between the root ball and that dead pine stump to sever it in that area. It will be about 4' away from the ball. With that in mind, should I notch the bottom of the log about 20-40% through, then slowly make a top cut about 6 inches towards the top of the tree? That should make a hinge but I guess I need to proceed slowly an ensure the top of the cut opens? Keeping my distance at arms length in case the stump end should roll when it comes up? I do feel better with it down now,but still nervous with the rootball caterlever acting on the whole thing. The tree end will also want to spring up towards the sawman as the top is hanging off the ledge as well.
Thank you all for all your comments and suggestions on this one,I never realized I would ever have so many ideas, and hidden dangers, but it help me break it down into different dangers it posed, thereby giving me the idea to work further back and remove one or two of the dangers at a time so they would not act on one another creating a truely unforseen and deadly incident.
I know there is no training that could ever measure up to real field experince and working with some old hands in the woods, but combining all the experince here into one thread has helped me very much and I am very appriciative for ya'll helping me out,and by the way,my knee is healing very good from the full chisel incident a few weeks ago...http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/235723-skidding-logs-6.html

Tol

 

[tcreeley]

I'd do a couple of top cuts on the top one- 1/2 thru just to see the hinge action. I might follow up with a bottom cut if it made sense. V notches 1/2 way thru reduces the likelihood of pinching blades.
Pole saw works well from a distance. Chainsaw up close. Just watch the movement of the wood and act accordingly. Can't really fight the tree, just manipulate it with its own weight.

 

[arrow]

Tollster, lets take the root ball out of the equation. There might be two ways:1.build a support for it so it will not tumble back then just cut the trees off. This support would look like when trying to hold up a porch temporarily because it needs to have its original posts cut out because they've rotted. 2. If you can get a pull in a side ways direction, notch and cut the trees as if to fall them to the left or right if they were standing up. Attach a pull line toward the top of the tree and keep yanking until the tree snaps off its stump. In other words, your notch is facing left or right depending on direction of pull and your finish cut is opposite the notch of course. Instead of gravity falling the tree in the direction of the notch, its gonna be the Toyota. The Toyota should give you enough force with this kind of leverage. You will leave a hinge just as if it were an ordinary drop. With you being out of harms way, you will not have to contend with being in the area for a final detachment cut and no matter what the root ball does, you are safely in the truck. Hope I've described this well enough for you to picture what I am trying to explain.

 

[Tollster]

Tollster, lets take the root ball out of the equation. There might be two ways:1.build a support for it so it will not tumble back then just cut the trees off. This support would look like when trying to hold up a porch temporarily because it needs to have its original posts cut out because they've rotted. 2. If you can get a pull in a side ways direction, notch and cut the trees as if to fall them to the left or right if they were standing up. Attach a pull line toward the top of the tree and keep yanking until the tree snaps off its stump. In other words, your notch is facing left or right depending on direction of pull and your finish cut is opposite the notch of course. Instead of gravity falling the tree in the direction of the notch, its gonna be the Toyota. The Toyota should give you enough force with this kind of leverage. You will leave a hinge just as if it were an ordinary drop. With you being out of harms way, you will not have to contend with being in the area for a final detachment cut and no matter what the root ball does, you are safely in the truck. Hope I've described this well enough for you to picture what I am trying to explain.

I like that idea as with the hinge laying perpendicular to the ground,the weight of the top should not break it off while I am cutting. Lettle nervous about the toyota though, as i think the top is big enough to pull it like it did today,so If I break the hidge with the toy, the tree top will go over the edge. It was getting pretty tight today with trees where i was pulling in the truck.

It may be one for a coos bay cut. I will just have to go slow like ya'll said and pay attention to what its doing

 

[arrow]

It may be one for a coos bay cut. I will just have to go slow like ya'll said and pay attention to what its doing

You do not want to leave too much wood at the cut that a Coos Bay has or else the Toy will have a more difficult or an impossible time to help you. Because you are making a hinge that is vertical to the ground, that should be enough to hold the tree from falling in its current lean. So its acting as a Coos Bay would anyway. Just do not saw through the hinge. The Toyota is going to be the felling agent and not gravity.

 

[s219]

I wouldn't mess with a vertical hinge and horizontal pull unless you are 100% sure the tree is loaded/balanced symmetrically. If it's not, something pretty exciting is going to happen while you're sawing. This would be no different than using a traditional cut on a tree that wants to twist, lean, or sit on the saw while you're cutting. Best case, your saw gets stuck. Worst case, something leans or twists and then it blows up on you.

Really, the best option would be to isolate the loads before cutting, so that the saw is not tickling the tree's funny bone into failure. It could be as simple as blocking up the trunk and propping up the rootball with some timbers. You want the wood fibers to not be in tension or compression where you are cutting.

If in doubt, then I would work with gravity and use a Coos Bay cut with a traditional hinge, as if you're felling towards the ground (so the hingeline would be horizontal in this case). In that scenario, you're accepting that the fibers will be in tension and compression, you know the load bias (due to gravity) is acting perpendicular to the hinge, and you're making a cut that manages the tension and compression to prevent a shear.

 

[arrow]

I wouldn't mess with a vertical hinge and horizontal pull unless you are 100% sure the tree is loaded/balanced symmetrically. If it's not, something pretty exciting is going to happen while you're sawing. This would be no different than using a traditional cut on a tree that wants to twist, lean, or sit on the saw while you're cutting. Best case, your saw gets stuck. Worst case, something leans or twists and then it blows up on you.

Really, the best option would be to isolate the loads before cutting, so that the saw is not tickling the tree's funny bone into failure. It could be as simple as blocking up the trunk and propping up the rootball with some timbers. You want the wood fibers to not be in tension or compression where you are cutting.

If in doubt, then I would work with gravity and use a Coos Bay cut with a traditional hinge, as if you're felling towards the ground (so the hingeline would be horizontal in this case). In that scenario, you're accepting that the fibers will be in tension and compression, you know the load bias (due to gravity) is acting perpendicular to the hinge, and you're making a cut that manages the tension and compression to prevent a shear.

I described to this gentleman that which we did on numerous occasions in my own career. On one occasion, it was all I did in one day where 2 dozen of these things were dealt with with some trunks over 25". Horizontal pulls were done on the largest of blow downs. Your suggestion and one of mine earlier certainly includes the propping up of the root ball as but one method. With my second suggestion and taking into account the ops concern and hesitation, I am trying to get him out of the way of 1. the root ball. 2. the area before any separation occurs. Not to dismiss your points entirely, we did this with proper equipment that averted much of the danger. It may be a mistake on my part to begin to say "do it this way" without him having access to that which would keep him safe without compromise. These differentiated ideas might be the most dangerous thing here as opposed to the trees. There are things on my own property that even as a former professional woodsman, I wouldn't attempt to accomplish without the proper heavy duty equipment. On trees this size, we would prop the root ball with the skidder, make the felling notch, cut into the either side a couple of inches, and wack through that tree with an 80 cc chainsaw on a 48" bar. We'd be done in a breath and never gave it a second thought. Can he do it? Sure he can. Can he do it safely at his experience level is the big question here and in reality, what other's capabilities and methods are do not and should not mean squat to this gentleman. To the original op: You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. That above all else will get you through as you have more than enough of our diatribe of how to do it.

 

[northpolefolks]

If you not comfortable with the saw-

Pull it down hillwith a come-along. Get behind the rootball with an axe and cut roots. It won't take much until it falls over.

If you comfortable with a saw, put a couple large rounds under the rootball so that it doesn't fall all the way back down, and then cut the trunk like any tree.

 

[Tollster]

I was hanging free off the ledge with the root ball acting as a canterlever. I slowing cut the upper lead and watch for movemnet on the root ball, none. So I continued to trim the upper lead back as far as I could. I then was able to put a vee notch about 6' up from the root ball in the bottom of the lower lead about 40% through wall. This was all about waiste level or a bit lower. I then went up about 2" and make a top down cut very slowly, and keeping my distance, it started to open about 20% through. I slowed my cut and assesed the rootball to be sure it was not gonna twist or roll. It started to come up slowly and I increased my speed as it went up untill the hinged broke away.
All worked well, I kept my distance at arms length,and cleaned the work area up before working so I had lines of escape. It was very controlled and actually better than I thought it would be. Thank you all!

 

[Piperflyer]

I can't believe it isn't down yet.

 

[Nasty135]

Just this winter one of our local papers had a story of some locals cutting up trees after Irene went through, Big root ball opened up the ground and one of the cut logs rolled into the crater one of the guys went in after it and the root ball went back into the hole crushing the guy to death. Perhaps one of the other guys was cutting the trunk logs making the balance of weight change letting it fall back to the ground...Very sad

 

[newbury]

No pictures, didn't happen

 

[MossRoad]

...should I notch the bottom of the log about 20-40% through, then slowly make a top cut about 6 inches towards the top of the tree?

Go back and look at that picture I posted of how to trim a branch off of a tree. It is the same thing. Since there is no longer a hang up, all of the pressure is outward of the rootball going down. Cut up 1/3 of the way from the bottom. No more or you may pinch your bar. You don't need to notch it. Make your 2nd cut from the top side down about 2" outward of the 1st cut.

But be careful of that rootball falling backwards and squishing you.

 

[MossRoad]

I was hanging free off the ledge with the root ball acting as a canterlever. I slowing cut the upper lead and watch for movemnet on the root ball, none. So I continued to trim the upper lead back as far as I could. I then was able to put a vee notch about 6' up from the root ball in the bottom of the lower lead about 40% through wall. This was all about waiste level or a bit lower. I then went up about 2" and make a top down cut very slowly, and keeping my distance, it started to open about 20% through. I slowed my cut and assesed the rootball to be sure it was not gonna twist or roll. It started to come up slowly and I increased my speed as it went up untill the hinged broke away.
All worked well, I kept my distance at arms length,and cleaned the work area up before working so I had lines of escape. It was very controlled and actually better than I thought it would be. Thank you all!

I guess I should have read to the end. Glad it is down for you. Good experience too.

 

[crazyal]

Nice. Plus it was a chance to learn for the next tree.