Buying Advice New Products for 2012 ???

[AxleHub]

Has anyone else been reading about the new diesel engines that were announced 3 days ago by the competition?

I predict that Kubota will introduce a series of new, highly efficient diesel engines during 2012. Likely for their higher end zero turn diesel models, their BX and B products.

Why? Because Kohler is leap frogging many in the small diesel market. Highly fuel efficient AND 10 times less particulate emissions. Engine costs are higher but eliminate the higher cost egr type canisters and filters.

More power, less fuel used, less emissions concerns right in time for the new regs..

Great for gov't type bids. Kubota is competitive and regs. Require change anyway.

I predict Kubota has also been working on similar type improvements but Kohler has an early lead. Watch and see.

Opinions ??? I also predict the dealers haven't heard a word about it yet. Could be any time in 2012 imo.


Why

 

[Verticaltrx]

I personally kind of doubt they'd be introducing anything like that in the near future. Kubota tends to stick with tried and true designs on their equipment as long as they can. 'Updated' models generally only have some new features, improved styling, and any necessary fixes to correct problems that a previous model had.

This is one reason why Kubotas are viewed as being so reliable. They don't just start with a clean slate every couple models like other manufactures, a lot less bugs to work out that way.

I also doubt Kubota worries much about what Kohler is doing. It is a miniscule company in comparison and Kubota is still the name everyone knows and trusts when it comes to small diesel engines. I can't say for sure they aren't working on something similar, but I would doubt it is one of their top priorities. Now they might be working on some new emissions related changes, but I doubt they'd start with a clean slate on their diesel engines.


Also, while the new 'highly efficient' diesel engines may sound good on paper, out in the field they aren't what diesels used to be. We got a Deere 5045e last fall and it is a great tractor, but the new turbo charged 'efficient and clean' engine leaves something to be desired. They took a well proven engine, turbo charged it and leaned it way out, and now have something with no low end torque, very poor throttle response, added complexity and presumably lower longevity. As soon as the warranty runs out we'll be pulling the turbo off and tuning it back to the specs of the prior models.


Maybe others have more insight on what Kubota may be planning, I'd be interested to hear it if they do. I'm planning on buying another Kubota for my business in the next couple years so it'll be interesting to see what they will have to change by then.

 

[Jon Chanoski]

I personally kind of doubt they'd be introducing anything like that in the near future. Kubota tends to stick with tried and true designs on their equipment as long as they can. 'Updated' models generally only have some new features, improved styling, and any necessary fixes to correct problems that a previous model had.

This is one reason why Kubotas are viewed as being so reliable. They don't just start with a clean slate every couple models like other manufactures, a lot less bugs to work out that way.

I also doubt Kubota worries much about what Kohler is doing. It is a miniscule company in comparison and Kubota is still the name everyone knows and trusts when it comes to small diesel engines. I can't say for sure they aren't working on something similar, but I would doubt it is one of their top priorities. Now they might be working on some new emissions related changes, but I doubt they'd start with a clean slate on their diesel engines.


Also, while the new 'highly efficient' diesel engines may sound good on paper, out in the field they aren't what diesels used to be. We got a Deere 5045e last fall and it is a great tractor, but the new turbo charged 'efficient and clean' engine leaves something to be desired. They took a well proven engine, turbo charged it and leaned it way out, and now have something with no low end torque, very poor throttle response, added complexity and presumably lower longevity. As soon as the warranty runs out we'll be pulling the turbo off and tuning it back to the specs of the prior models.


Maybe others have more insight on what Kubota may be planning, I'd be interested to hear it if they do. I'm planning on buying another Kubota for my business in the next couple years so it'll be interesting to see what they will have to change by then.

Not sure about your 5045E but my 5075E is a differant animal plenty of low end torque and pretty darn snappy throttle response!!! Where are you getting your info from on the lower longevity?

 

[Verticaltrx]

Not sure about your 5045E but my 5075E is a differant animal plenty of low end torque and pretty darn snappy throttle response!!! Where are you getting your info from on the lower longevity?

I guess it may be because the 45hp version is at the lower end of the hp range, but it still doesn't act the same as our old International 454 diesel, which is the same displacement engine and same hp.

As for the longevity, that is just my speculation. Partially because being turbocharged it needs longer warm up and cool down times which it frequently doesn't get with the type of work we use it for.

 

[MHarryE]

Sure Kubota will introduce engines with 90% less particulate emissions by the end of 2012. Its the law. They either introduce the cleaner engines or they stop selling tractors.

 

[Monster5601]

Sure Kubota will introduce engines with 90% less particulate emissions by the end of 2012. Its the law. They either introduce the cleaner engines or they stop selling tractors.

Where are their engines at now on the emission standards? I'm not familiar with the new laws so 90% less particulates is based off of...

 

[High Compression]

It's hard to speculate what a manufacture will do when government regulations kick in. In late 1994, Ford (International) came out with what became one of the best diesel engines to ever be put in a truck. The "Powerstroke". It was powerful, reliable, and almost indestructible.
Ford saw the 2010 emission regulations coming and discontinued the engine in late 2003 stating that they would not be able to get that engine to pass those emission requirements. We all know what happened from there.
That really hurt Ford. Maybe they screwed up, but they still sell trucks. It's open to speculation, but the point is, sometimes manufactures are forced to make changes that they don't want. Making a transition to a "new" engine can never be easy. The only way this will stop, is if we someday go electric.

 

[kuboman]

Or get rid of the EPA and California:thumbsup:

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Opinions ??? I also predict the dealers haven't heard a word about it yet.

Your right about that part anyway.

BX's don't go Tier4i until 2014 (i think). Mid year product introductions are never revolutionary stuff. I'd be pretty surprised to see a mid year BX as it would miss the selling season for that size tractor.

 

[AxleHub]

Your right about that part anyway.

BX's don't go Tier4i until 2014 (i think). Mid year product introductions are never revolutionary stuff. I'd be pretty surprised to see a mid year BX as it would miss the selling season for that size tractor.

I'm curious - Kohler's new, just announced small diesel engines are supposed to be the largest investment in r & d they have ever done, (ever in their history). Of course they provide engines for many competitors of Kubota (some of their prime competitors).

If, as you suggest, Kubota is not in any rush to produce new and more efficient product in the B and BX line, wouldn't that be a gaping hole for them while new exciting advanced product is released thru the competitive channel?

 

[Monster5601]

I'm curious - Kohler's new, just announced small diesel engines are supposed to be the largest investment in r & d they have ever done, (ever in their history). Of course they provide engines for many competitors of Kubota (some of their prime competitors).

If, as you suggest, Kubota is not in any rush to produce new and more efficient product in the B and BX line, wouldn't that be a gaping hole for them while new exciting advanced product is released thru the competitive channel?

The size of Kohler's investment in R&D is relative and the only way to actually measure their investment is to compare it to competitors costs to develop a similar product. The size of an R&D investment alone doesn't equate to a quality product. The experience level of their engineers, their domain knowledge with diesel technology, their ability to manufacture, etc:, are all part of the equation to success.

You seem to have a special interest in Kohler's diesel engine success, what is your relationship with them?

 

[CHDinCT]

If I read the PR correctly (a week or so ago), didn't Kohler buy Lombardini? If so, they are not starting at ground zero designing diesel engines. I'm sure Kubota has lot's of diesel tech in the pipeline too, but just what and when it is implemented in their production engines who knows (beyond what's needed to meet the increasingly stricter EPA regs).

The other thing to keep in mind is that Kohler is an engine supplier exclusively AFAIK, while Kubota's tractor, etc., division provides a set market for a large share of their engines. For Kohler to gain share, they will need some advantage in cost, performance or technology. The new engines just announced are a play for that additional market share, and a welcome one. We'll see what the competition comes out with in due time.

 

[equipman]

A few years ago, at at Kubota Dealer Meeting, I was told that 80% of Kubota Diesel engines were used in other than Kubota equipment. The Engine Division sells many more engines than the Tractor Division sells.

 

[MHarryE]

The Lombardini/Kohler engine announcement is for an engine to meet Tier 4 final and will not be available until the end of 2012. They are 42 to 71 HP. The big news is they will be Kohler engines worldwide instead of Kohler where Kohler name is well known and Lombardini where Lombardini is well known. They will be built in Reggio Emilia, Italy, which is about a half hour from the Ferrari plant in Maranello. They announced they will get to the required particulate level without a particulate trap. I don't know Kubota's plan for getting to that level.

 

[AxleHub]

The size of Kohler's investment in R&D is relative and the only way to actually measure their investment is to compare it to competitors costs to develop a similar product. The size of an R&D investment alone doesn't equate to a quality product. The experience level of their engineers, their domain knowledge with diesel technology, their ability to manufacture, etc:, are all part of the equation to success.

You seem to have a special interest in Kohler's diesel engine success, what is your relationship with them?

I have no relationship with Kohler. However, there is a dual purpose in my focus on Kohler.

1. There is regulatory compliance requirements for all diesel manufacturers which includes Kubota. many here seem to believe there will be no changes to BX and b models during the 2012 calendar year. that viewpoint seems illogical if compliance is mandated by 2013 and 2014 (unless your belief is that Kubota is merely a "'me too" producer). by comparison, in 2006 or 2007 imagine the perspective difference in Ford versus GM. One was visionary and one was absolutely not. I happen to believe Kubota is far more like Ford was and not like GM was. Which means Kubota will not wait to the last seconds of 2013 and 2014 deadlines.

2. a strategic shift in the market. I believe the size of kohlers effort will put great pressure on kawasaki and sugar for several reasons. Kubotas largest competitors use many Kohler and kawasaki engines now. But if Kohler has designed a more competitive and efficient diesel design that SURPASSES compliance standards with greater efficiency, then Kubotas largest competitors would greatly benefit in tractor sales IN ADDITION to the engine sales business of Kohler. Again - compare the huge success Ford had compared to GM in the past 4 years because they were visionary. Kohler has invested major money on this effort for very specific reasons. That tells me if Kubota is as Sharp as I think they are, then they are doing the same thing right now and have yet to announce it. OR we can go with the premise Kubota isn't a Ford and is more like GM was.

My conclusion then, is that Kubota is more visionary than many others here are giving them credit for, and is much busier in r and d right now, than many here are giving them credit for, BECAUSE Kohler developments are bigger than many here are giving them credit for on an impact in the industry. This is more than an engine issue, its about the products those engines go into.

Simple question to explain a great deal: in virtually any country on the planet - why is it that diesel fuel costs less to manufacture, yet is priced higher by ten to twenty percent than gasoline? Answer: diesel engines on a worldwide basis are in greater demand and future usage than are gas.

 

[Grandad4]

Er, I don't know a whole lot about diesels compared to many here at TBN, so excuse me for pointing out that Kubota already has several series of diesel engines on the market that meet full Tier 4:

Frontier Power Products - Kubota liquid-cooled diesel engines

Other diesel manufacturers like Yanmar also have Tier 4 diesels on the market.

Here are the major diesel manufacturers who actually signed the agreement in 1996 with the EPA that put the whole diesel emission standards system into effect: Caterpillar, Cummins, Deere, Detroit Diesel, Deutz, Isuzu, Komatsu, Kubota, Mitsubishi, Navistar, New Holland, Wis-Con, and Yanmar. I'm thinking Kohler's "new" introduction isn't the breakthrough it's made out to be in the marketing hype... it's their way of saying "me too" for what the big boys are already heavily into.

Here's a nice summary of the emissions standards, by the way:

Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

Something tells me they're not trembling in their boots over in Osaka about Kohler and Tier 4... they have it pretty well covered.

 

[AxleHub]

Er, I don't know a whole lot about diesels compared to many here at TBN, so excuse me for pointing out that Kubota already has several series of diesel engines on the market that meet full Tier 4:

Frontier Power Products - Kubota liquid-cooled diesel engines

Other diesel manufacturers like Yanmar also have Tier 4 diesels on the market.

Here are the major diesel manufacturers who actually signed the agreement in 1996 with the EPA that put the whole diesel emission standards system into effect: Caterpillar, Cummins, Deere, Detroit Diesel, Deutz, Isuzu, Komatsu, Kubota, Mitsubishi, Navistar, New Holland, Wis-Con, and Yanmar. I'm thinking Kohler's "new" introduction isn't the breakthrough it's made out to be in the marketing hype... it's their way of saying "me too" for what the big boys are already heavily into.

Here's a nice summary of the emissions standards, by the way:

Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

Something tells me they're not trembling in their boots over in Osaka about Kohler and Tier 4... they have it pretty well covered.

You offered some fine points and links for readers to consider.

However, a key point of my perspective, is not merely achieving tier 4 requirements. What Kohler new designs do, if true, is they accomplish ALL the tier 4 requirements WITHOUT the filtering mechanism that everyone else is using.

Today I talked to a design engineer for engines for semi tractors. He said, if the claims are true, it would be the same as not having an egr in a semi but fully qualifying anyway. in his world, that means a semi owner would save at least $1600 to $2000 per year in maintenance and add 20% mileage improvement EVERY year. In car parlance, its the development of fuel injection as a technology impact.

My point is, Kohler announcement and materials - if true, would alter diesel impact far beyond TIer 4 issues. It's a technology step, just as fuel injection in cars and trucks forever altered carburetor and acceleration issues and reliability in car technology.

I believe Kubota is capable of competing, but the point is, at present, if Kohler new designs match their claims, Kubota has nothing currently out to match it, nor does any other engine manufacturer that I am aware of based on target market and costs. if Kohler can deliver as promised, if if if, kawasaki may have significant problems keeping their engines in our competitors units and same for some others - and Kubota will be late to the party.

 

[grsthegreat]

My Kioti DK45 has what they call an interim tieir 4 engine..... what is that exactly

 

[Grandad4]

My Kioti DK45 has what they call an interim tieir 4 engine..... what is that exactly

The way I read it, EPA gave certain categories of engines a temporary break on one category of pollutants - particulate (soot) emissions - required under the full Tier 4. The time window for the temporary standard is about to expire.