Anyone Use a Trash Pumpt to Clean pond?

[20 20]

CollinLeon; I realise there are floating excavators, but we were discussing getting across muck. Not very many of the floating excavators around atleast not cheap. I do know of a place in central NY along I90 that has had a floating excavator, dozer with swamp tracks, and a tracked dump working in wet lands. They are using the floating excavator because the area can not be pumped out.

 

[CollinLeon]

CollinLeon; I realise there are floating excavators, but we were discussing getting across muck. Not very many of the floating excavators around atleast not cheap. I do know of a place in central NY along I90 that has had a floating excavator, dozer with swamp tracks, and a tracked dump working in wet lands. They are using the floating excavator because the area can not be pumped out.

Just pointing out that there are always options no matter how bad the "terrain" might be, although they aren't cheap... One of the things that I noticed a few years ago when I was working in New Orleans is how they had basically drained a swamp and make "dry" land out of it... Basically, they dug a bunch of drainage ditches (they called them "canals") in the swamp, which then let the water from the swamp go to a lower place. They then pumped all the water out of these "canals" which resulted in the "land" above them being dry. The fact that this "land" was perhaps below sea level didn't matter as long as they were able to get any additional water to flow to the lower elevation of the "canals" and then eventually to get pumped higher into the Mississippi River or Lake Pontchartrain. It didn't make for all that solid of a foundation for a house though, as they learned from some of the slab-on-grade houses that were built in the 1950s and 1960s. All in all, it worked pretty good as long as you didn't have a large storm that deposited more water than the pumps could handle... Or as long as the levees keeping out the water from the Lake didn't fail... Like what happened during Katrina... In the short run, man can bend nature to his needs, but in the long run, nature always wins... Just like in this case... In the short term, we can build a pond, but in the long term, nature will fill that pond back in... It might not be quick, but nature has the advantage of extreme patience...

 

[boggen]

Good info Mike, I will have to look into a centrifugal also.

Anyone have any experience with one of these? FA Series Diaphragm Pumps - Mud Sucker Pumps

I emailed them and they suggested models 2FA or 3FA.

the linked peaked my interest. it more like a piston pump. but has a rubber O-ring / diaphragm. to allow for a bigger piston. at same time keeping oil and like out of the water.

never done it myself, but just over years on farm and ponds and like. and diaphragms. just scare me, when i start thinking about amount of pressure that would be putting on them. then the abrasive nature of all the mud/silt/sand/small rocks. that will take a toll on the diaphragm rubber. plus if ya let it set and try to re-use it a couple months later possible cracking of the diaphragm and need to do a replacement of it.

on other hand. looking at it. if the diaphragms were cheap and easy to replace without much effort or tools needed. i would think this setup might be more forgiving long haul to motor, shafts, seals, piston, etc... just not on the diaphragm itself.

as far as centrifuge pumps, *cringes* i would be looking at a "rock pump" or "concrete pump" knowing my luck, if i went with anything less, i would be cracking blades, blowing seals, bending shafts. if it was pure sand like mixture on other hand. i might go with something less.

my worry is, the mud/sand/silt/etc... acting like sand paper, and just eating away at any sort of blades. or internals of pumps. not to mention the occasional rock that will go through and be like a gun hitting the insides of the pump.

on another note. the diaphragm pumps you noted. i would assume has 2 check valves, one to let water in, and one to let water out. as piston raised and lowered. these could get pretty banged up. or get stuck open with a rock or something. or perhaps with some wear not close all the way. would be a concern.

 

[Don in LA]

I helped my brother-in-law clean the silt from his pond several years ago. We used a trash pump and a long suction hose with a strainer. I secured the suction hose in the middle of a rope and we had 50' of rope on both sides going to the banks of the pond. With that arrangement we were able to drag the suction hose back and forth across the pond. Depending on the configuration of the pond, you may have to float the pump on a small flatboat, etc. The process worked pretty well for us but digging would have been more effective.

 

[moored4]

I have been thinking!! "we are in trouble now"

Here is what you do!!

Go to the state prison and ask a bank robber to tell the warden that he hid the heist money in the bottom of your pond!

The Feds will come out and drain out the pound. :confused3: They won't find anything!

The bank robber gets a :laughing: out of it, they love playing with "The Boss Man's head" and you get your pond cleaned for no cost!

Sounds like a plan to me!:cool2:

 

[moored4]

Thinking again!
To get the settled silt into a suspended solution that will be easier to pump out have you thought of taking an air lance (long piece of pipe) conecting it to an aircompressor and agitating the bottom! The silted bottom and clear top water mixed up to become a more pumpable slurry. :thumbsup:

 

[scesnick]

I have been thinking!! "we are in trouble now"

Here is what you do!!

Go to the state prison and ask a bank robber to tell the warden that he hid the heist money in the bottom of your pond!

The Feds will come out and drain out the pound. :confused3: They won't find anything!

The bank robber gets a :laughing: out of it, they love playing with "The Boss Man's head" and you get your pond cleaned for no cost!

Sounds like a plan to me!:cool2:

HA !!!! That is too funny.... Especially since I actually work at a Federal Penitentiary !!

 

[moored4]

HA !!!! That is too funny.... Especially since I actually work at a Federal Penitentiary !!

OOOOPS!!

That explains you avatar picture!



Oh! How about a little supervised outing for the 'buckett bergade'!
:laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

[scesnick]

OOOOPS!!

That explains you avatar picture!



Oh! How about a little supervised outing for the 'buckett bergade'!
:laughing::laughing::laughing:

LOL !!!!!

 

[MikeD74T]

Good info Mike, I will have to look into a centrifugal also.

Anyone have any experience with one of these? FA Series Diaphragm Pumps - Mud Sucker Pumps

I emailed them and they suggested models 2FA or 3FA.

I've used mud suckers, they're great for what they are for. They will move water, slurry - even with stones sand etc & will usually pass anything that fits thru the suction port. In many ways they're more versitile than centrifugal pumps. They just don't move anything very fast. As I said, you won't find any commercial dredges with diaphram pumps.

 

[palmerdad]

I'm really curious to hear what happens with the diaphragm pump as I'm going to be trying the same thing soon up here in Northern Michigan. I have a creek fed pond roughly 45' by 20' that is 30 years old. I believe it should be roughly 15 feet deep but is only about 5 or 6 on the one side sloping up to about 1 foot deep on the incoming water side. The sediment is a muddy muck, no rocks to contend with and the bottom should be a heavy clay (the sides all are). I'd like to be able to add some trout when done if all goes well. Or at least not have a dangerous quick sand pit in my backyard since I have small kids.

Last year I tried pumping it out with a 6" trash pump. The pump did a great job of getting all of the top water out but once I got down to the muck it just clogged the screen head. So this spring I hired a friend who owns an excavating company. We can't get a large excavator to the pond due to a number of large trees that I'm not willing to sacrifice so he brought a mini excavator and a bobcat. Again we pumped off the top water with a trash pump and he was going to try and drive down into it and scoop his way across the pond. When he tried to descend the steep bank he found that the pond was deeper than he thought with the mud and we didn't want to risk sinking the machine by going in. So he scooped from the two sides he could but barely put a dent in it. (The other two sides are where the sludge is the deepest and are protected by big trees.)

So in my research I've arrived at my next possible solution, a 3" Wacker diaphragm pump. From what I read they are able to move water with more than 25% solids and are built to handle mud. My thought is to stir up the muck as much as possible and start pumping. In order to stir it up I'm considering putting a fishing boat with an outboard in the pond. Tie it off to a couple of the large trees and letting the engine rip. I know it sounds unconventional, but who knows, sometimes unconventional ideas are the best... right?!

I have found I can rent the pump for $70 for a weekend or $170 for a week so I'm not out too much money. And as far as the spoils, yes, I know it's a lot but I have a sloping hill side to pump it over so I should be ok.

Sure would love to hear from someone who has tried a diaphragm pump first for any tips or tricks or reports on how it went.

 

[jonyyuma]

Years ago, we used diaphram pumps to pump out deep manholes. Many of them held a lot of clay sediment.. They worked pretty good. Something you will find out, water with sediment is very hard to raise. I mean the head pressure, or lift ability..Far as the boat motor just watch the water pump on it to be sure to have adaquate flow into the engine cooling.

 

[jinman]

I'mSo in my research I've arrived at my next possible solution, a 3" Wacker diaphragm pump. From what I read they are able to move water with more than 25% solids and are built to handle mud. My thought is to stir up the muck as much as possible and start pumping. In order to stir it up I'm considering putting a fishing boat with an outboard in the pond. Tie it off to a couple of the large trees and letting the engine rip. I know it sounds unconventional, but who knows, sometimes unconventional ideas are the best... right?!

I have found I can rent the pump for $70 for a weekend or $170 for a week so I'm not out too much money. And as far as the spoils, yes, I know it's a lot but I have a sloping hill side to pump it over so I should be ok.

Sure would love to hear from someone who has tried a diaphragm pump first for any tips or tricks or reports on how it went.

I think you are going to waste your money on that pump. With your limitations I think you need a dredge style pump that removes water and solids, filters out the solids, and returns the water. I think you are going to find that the mud/muck is 75% or greater solids and the pump simply cannot pump out the muck. Think of a concrete pump. That's the kind of pump you need for the described task in your pond. Otherwise, you will just have to sacrifice some trees so a large excavator can get into the pond.

Silt is something I have a lot of experience with. Mud/muck takes forever to dry. It can look dry and crusty on the surface and be "pudding" underneath. My pond had been dry for 6 months when this dozer arrived. He had to dig a trench deep enough to be on the native dry soil while removing the silt. At some places, the silt was 10' deep in my pond. An excavator with a very long arm can reach in and dig out the silt, but I think your silt is too dense to pump and to thin to drive in a dozer or other tracked vehicle.

 

[jonyyuma]

I think you are going to waste your money on that pump. With your limitations I think you need a dredge style pump that removes water and solids, filters out the solids, and returns the water. I think you are going to find that the mud/muck is 75% or greater solids and the pump simply cannot pump out the muck. Think of a concrete pump. That's the kind of pump you need for the described task in your pond. Otherwise, you will just have to sacrifice some trees so a large excavator can get into the pond.

Silt is something I have a lot of experience with. Mud/muck takes forever to dry. It can look dry and crusty on the surface and be "pudding" underneath. My pond had been dry for 6 months when this dozer arrived. He had to dig a trench deep enough to be on the native dry soil while removing the silt. At some places, the silt was 10' deep in my pond. An excavator with a very long arm can reach in and dig out the silt, but I think your silt is too dense to pump and to thin to drive in a dozer or other tracked vehicle.

I remember watching a bulldozer sink into an old pond years ago. It was old silt, nearly solidifyed bottom.

 

[palmerdad]

I looked briefly at concrete pumps but I'm not sure how you get the sludge into one. sure there is a long out pipe but most of them just have a box to dump in the concrete. Maybe I'm missing something? When I do a search for "dredge pump" all i come up with our basically trash pumps which say they can pump water and up to 25% solids. The best pump available to be rented by an individual that claims to be able to handle more than 25% solids is a diaphragm pump. Anyone else ever tried one (for any purpose)? How much solids did it pump? How fast/slow was it?

 

[jinman]

I looked briefly at concrete pumps but I'm not sure how you get the sludge into one. sure there is a long out pipe but most of them just have a box to dump in the concrete. Maybe I'm missing something? When I do a search for "dredge pump" all i come up with our basically trash pumps which say they can pump water and up to 25% solids. The best pump available to be rented by an individual that claims to be able to handle more than 25% solids is a diaphragm pump. Anyone else ever tried one (for any purpose)? How much solids did it pump? How fast/slow was it?

I didn't really mean that you could actually use a concrete pump. I meant that it would take a plunger style pump to move solids like your mud.

A dredge pump moves water to stir up mud in a high concentration with the water and then the silt is allowed to settle out and the water recycled. I would think you need one pump making a water jet to stir up the mud and another one sucking the muddy water up. If you had a settling pond, you could dump that water into it and let the silt settle. If you just pump out the available muddy water and don't recycle it, your pond empties out and you are trying to pump mud that is too thick.

There is mechanical dredging using a scoop, but you need to get around the pond just like using the excavator. I think to preserve your pond environment, the only thing is a pump dredge done by professionals. I just don't think you will be able to afford the equipment you need for a 1-time job. You can try that pump, but I think you will be disappointed.

Here's info I just found. I think this guy has it right. Pay close attention to where he says dredges normally move 10% solids and 90% water.

 

[palmerdad]

I was hoping that the boat engine would have the effect of stirring the mud up into the water. when I run out of muddy water that the pump can handle (I'm thinking that could take 4 or 5 hours) I will have to wait overnight for the pond to refill via the stream. (When I pumped it down with the trash pump it refilled overnight) I have a week off work coming up and thought I might rent it for the week so I could repeat the process a couple of times and see how much mud I could remove. I am hopeful that the diaphragm pump will be able to handle a good muddy mix without clogging allowing me to pump more than just storred up water but I might be deluding myself.

I was hoping perhaps SCESNICK would have tried this by now and could give some insight on what he found to lend some first person experience. If not, I guess I'll have to go first and relay on the experience!

 

[scesnick]

I was hoping perhaps SCESNICK would have tried this by now and could give some insight on what he found to lend some first person experience. If not, I guess I'll have to go first and relay on the experience!

Nope, haven't done this yet. I am currently building a stone wall and now I have my back all out of whack so it will be atleast another month or so till I try this.

 

[leonz]

I'm really curious to hear what happens with the diaphragm pump as I'm going to be trying the same thing soon up here in Northern Michigan. I have a creek fed pond roughly 45' by 20' that is 30 years old. I believe it should be roughly 15 feet deep but is only about 5 or 6 on the one side sloping up to about 1 foot deep on the incoming water side. The sediment is a muddy muck, no rocks to contend with and the bottom should be a heavy clay (the sides all are). I'd like to be able to add some trout when done if all goes well. Or at least not have a dangerous quick sand pit in my backyard since I have small kids.

Last year I tried pumping it out with a 6" trash pump. The pump did a great job of getting all of the top water out but once I got down to the muck it just clogged the screen head. So this spring I hired a friend who owns an excavating company. We can't get a large excavator to the pond due to a number of large trees that I'm not willing to sacrifice so he brought a mini excavator and a bobcat. Again we pumped off the top water with a trash pump and he was going to try and drive down into it and scoop his way across the pond. When he tried to descend the steep bank he found that the pond was deeper than he thought with the mud and we didn't want to risk sinking the machine by going in. So he scooped from the two sides he could but barely put a dent in it. (The other two sides are where the sludge is the deepest and are protected by big trees.)

So in my research I've arrived at my next possible solution, a 3" Wacker diaphragm pump. From what I read they are able to move water with more than 25% solids and are built to handle mud. My thought is to stir up the muck as much as possible and start pumping. In order to stir it up I'm considering putting a fishing boat with an outboard in the pond. Tie it off to a couple of the large trees and letting the engine rip. I know it sounds unconventional, but who knows, sometimes unconventional ideas are the best... right?!

I have found I can rent the pump for $70 for a weekend or $170 for a week so I'm not out too much money. And as far as the spoils, yes, I know it's a lot but I have a sloping hill side to pump it over so I should be ok.

Sure would love to hear from someone who has tried a diaphragm pump first for any tips or tricks or reports on how it went.

The only way your going to move any dirt with the diaphram pump is to rent a second PRESSURE pump to break up the mud and allow the Diaphram Pump to work at avery low head pressure as more water than dirt will be entering the pump suction line.

The problem is going to be one of having and maintaining enough water to do the job, this is the only realistic way to be able to move all this muck and it will take you a long time to do this.


Unless you both have a drilling mud cleaning system or a roll off container to drain the water back the water wil be wasted and less dirt will be removed in either instances.

 

[leonz]

I was hoping that the boat engine would have the effect of stirring the mud up into the water. when I run out of muddy water that the pump can handle (I'm thinking that could take 4 or 5 hours) I will have to wait overnight for the pond to refill via the stream. (When I pumped it down with the trash pump it refilled overnight) I have a week off work coming up and thought I might rent it for the week so I could repeat the process a couple of times and see how much mud I could remove. I am hopeful that the diaphragm pump will be able to handle a good muddy mix without clogging allowing me to pump more than just storred up water but I might be deluding myself.

I was hoping perhaps SCESNICK would have tried this by now and could give some insight on what he found to lend some first person experience. If not, I guess I'll have to go first and relay on the experience!

Referring to my last posting the issue is dirt and clay and returning the water for reuse.

The more ideal method would be to use a 20 foot roll off container and pump the muddy water into the container and the water will drain away back to the pond and the mud will settle out in the container and be a more efficient use of the diaphram pump and a pressure pump for the rental.

Even the purchase of a small pressure pump with a one inch line will not be a waste if you
use a roll off container to hold the dirt and drain the water back for reuse by the pressure pump.