Anyone ever permit a 'Farm Pond' or borrow pit

[plowhog]

What I don't get is, in my state, beaver can make a pond without a permit.

During a series of heavy rainstorms a river otter thought the outflow from my pond was a creek. It found the pond by traveling up the outflow, and began devastating all my 20+lb catfish that had taken 20 years to mature from fingerlings. I learned that otters can kill "just for the fun of it."

I made the mistake of calling the County, who also got the Department of Agriculture involved. By the time it was over, the quoted fees to install a single trap was over $1,000, and the trap application had pages of requirements including getting a "registration number" that had to be placarded on the trap. Then they asked if I had a valid State of CA hunting license?

Along the way, I complained about the slow pace of any response while the fish were being actively killed each night. The response was: "we have a lot of urgent priorities to deal with, far beyond just a beaver." In short order, their lack of response no longer mattered because the otter had wiped out all the fish and left.

I will not make that mistake again.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

I was hoping you would show up on this Lineman. Any experience with this?

The map attached; the yellow blob would be a likely home site; the green-teal would be a trail; and the blue circle would be kinda the preferred pond location, but the red circle (which IS upland) would also work well.

I know you do a mix of contracted work; you build an farm ponds or borrow pits? Not asking you to out yourself if you did something shady, and not looking for a bid View attachment 871071

I don't dig ponds, but I have pumped some down and put in some spillways and over flow pipes nothing more but the one thing I do know is if asking questions do it in general not in specifics and do not give them the location specifics or you will have more people and more departments from more agency's than you ever knew existed in the middle of your business, the county I live in broke me a long time ago from asking questions that I didn't already know the answer to, which is why I said it's always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

 

[jyoutz]

This is exactly what I would not do. Keep asking questions and every regulatory agency in the free world will have their hand in it. Why not ask NATO or WEF also lol.

My, my, my. NRCS isn’t a regulatory agency. They exist to help farmers and landowners with technical assistance. And the state water quality agency has the authority to fine. May as well find out the law before breaking it, because they will find out.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, I guess I will share some real world, non pond, permitting things I've dealt with, on the Imperial side, while hopefully staying out of trouble;
1) Several years ago, a gentleman calls about getting a permit for a driveway to his horse boarding farm. At the time my roll was temporarily a bit different, I get all his info, prepare all his stuff. My boss tries to argue that he should only get a 16 ft max driveway, with 25 ft radius; I find in the regs he absolutely can have a 24 ft, with 25 ft radius; but potentially, you could argue he could have upto 50 ft radius. Anyways, get it approved; and meet with him in the field to discuss what he really wants. He mentions that in the longer term he wants to put a RV campground in. I immediately tell him, 'you didn't say that, we didn't talk about that, and don't bring it up until your actually ready to move forward with that phase". That 'future' RV park would have changed the construction cost of the driveway from maybe $10k to possibly up around $250k; maybe needing a Right turn lane, and certainly a left turn in....

2) Maybe the opposite side of the equation; a family is trying to self build a storage yard, where you rent space to store boats, rvs, tree trimming trucks, whatever, fenced secure storage. Multiple times while they are working onsite, I mention to them, you Need to come in and talk about permits. 'yeah, yeah, we know, we will get on it in a few months'. We'll, they finally come in, and the driveway will not be permitted in the location their entire site is lined up with... yes, they will get a driveway to the road, but not in the location their entire site is build for....

3) a contractor I know fairly well, and I would say I'm personally friendly with the owner, calls me about a small commercial property, guy has a boat mechanic shop, and he just recently purchased the adjacent lot for overflow storage, customer parking, ect. Contractor states, he wants to make some minor improvements, do I need to get a permit... I look at it on aerial; "if he comes to us, he's going to have to remove both driveways and property 1, and the 1 driveway on property 2, and construction 1 large access servicing both parcels if he wants to permit, so, maybe we never talked" and no problem ever came up

 

[EddieWalker]

Can't speak for Florida.

Here in Texas, I was informed that a Land Owner can dig a pond without a permit if it's less then 90 acres in size. You can also dam up a creek if it is not named on a map. Named creeks belong to the local Dam Authority for whatever big river has a dam on it. You have to deal with them if you want to dam up a named creek.

Back in California, where I grew up, I knew a guy that worked for one of the big cities and loved fighting with different government agencies. Going to court was fun for him. He almost always won, and he enjoyed digging into the people who worked at that agency, and exposing them.

On his land, he had a guy come out with a dozer to build a one acre pond. He didn't get any permits, and when the different government agencies went after him, he claimed that the pond had always been there, and he was just cleaning it up after decades of neglect. Since areal photo's only went back so far, he claimed the pond was before then. They went to court, he won.

If I was in Florida, and I wanted to dig a pond, I would go to the local Ag Extension and ask for their advice in how to go about doing this. Once you have them on your side, it should be easy to get it done.

 

[Gator6x4]

Don’t ever forget the liability that comes from having a pond because we live in the “Us Sue All”.

I am considering building a pond on my property. What are the liability issues I should be aware of? – Freshwater Aquaculture

 

[JJT]

I'll second the don't ask for permission advice.

I've built two ponds, both in NY state. The first was at our previous house. We had a low, wet spot bulldozed and backhoed out, about 40x60 and 8' deep, (1 day job). A neighbor complained to DEC, and they did an inspection. The officer said nice pond, better than the low lying wet spot that existed earlier and asked to see my permit. Back then the permit application was $100 and required DEC approval which was hard to get, (as told to me by my excavator), and would take weeks/months. The DEC officer said I have to issue a fine since you didn't get a permit. "How does $50 sound?" SOLD....

My second pond was on our new property in farmland, well outside the Adirondack park and DEC's oversite. 1/4+ acre this time, 14' deep, no permit required. To stock it with fish the local soil and water guy had to inspect the pond. "Nice pond, your fish will arrive next week."

 

[tractortroof]

My, my, my. NRCS isn’t a regulatory agency. They exist to help farmers and landowners with technical assistance. And the state water quality agency has the authority to fine. May as well find out the law before breaking it, because they will find out.

When I had the local agricultural agent out to give advice on a planting, he warned me not to ditch any of the land because it violated the water act. How the f#%* am I supposed to grow anything around here if the field won’t drain? He says don’t worry about it the water will dissipate. It’s clay you $$#^^%.

So yeah I’d say be careful about who you ask, there are probably 100,000 laws in this country and no one abides by them all. Especially when it comes to water.

 

[tractortroof]

Can't speak for Florida.

Here in Texas, I was informed that a Land Owner can dig a pond without a permit if it's less then 90 acres in size. You can also dam up a creek if it is not named on a map. Named creeks belong to the local Dam Authority for whatever big river has a dam on it. You have to deal with them if you want to dam up a named creek.

Back in California, where I grew up, I knew a guy that worked for one of the big cities and loved fighting with different government agencies. Going to court was fun for him. He almost always won, and he enjoyed digging into the people who worked at that agency, and exposing them.

On his land, he had a guy come out with a dozer to build a one acre pond. He didn't get any permits, and when the different government agencies went after him, he claimed that the pond had always been there, and he was just cleaning it up after decades of neglect. Since areal photo's only went back so far, he claimed the pond was before then. They went to court, he won.

If I was in Florida, and I wanted to dig a pond, I would go to the local Ag Extension and ask for their advice in how to go about doing this. Once you have them on your side, it should be easy to get it done.

In north Florida or local Ag rep (who holds a doctorate) feels the need to enforce laws that have nothing to do with his office. I would never invite him back. You don’t know people’s political leanings. First clue should have been the mask he put on (outside)

 

[dodge man]

I’m a retired land surveyor and worked for a civil engineering company. In Illinois a pond or lake needed permits if it was a certain size and/or had something downstream from it. The one I worked on were larger, more of a small lake and our fees for the engineering and surveying got into thousands of dollars. They also required a regular inspection by an engineer and a short report written, I think yearly.

In your case I don’t think you would need any permit in this area which is pretty rural. There are all sorts of farm ponds around here. Of course where you live there might be all sorts of local or state regulations that kick in.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, the short answer is, it's complicated. Without being at all political, there are potentially like 5 government agencies that could be involved; and just cause 1 doesn't regulate at say a state level, it doesn't mean one doesn't at the county level. You have FDEP/Water Management District; potentially ACE; County building department; County public works department; possibly FDOT (only if the property touches their ROW or drainage Easements).

 

[1 Old Man]

Always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

If you're in a rural area, and buy 20 ac; digging 4-6' deep, 80' open pond shouldn't be a big deal.
That's about 1/8 of an ac. Just a nice tank for animals or fish etc. Just make sure you're not in
protected wetlands or interfering with a navigable waterway. Good luck.

 

[paulsharvey]

If you're in a rural area, and buy 20 ac; digging 4-6' deep, 80' open pond shouldn't be a big deal.
That's about 1/8 of an ac. Just a nice tank for animals or fish etc. Just make sure you're not in
protected wetlands or interfering with a navigable waterway. Good luck.

Yes, I was just mostly looking into the permitting to place it in the wetlands, which would be ideal from multiple angles; should stay full, not wasting useful property, and all that. Doesn't look like it's worth the hassle to dig it in wetlands; although some things imply if it's consistent with agricultural activities, it's exempt.

 

[paulsharvey]

The pond I ended up with. It's kinda made up of two bowls with a narrower, shallower area between the two bowls. Each bowl is roughly 2.5-3 acres, for a total of 5.5 to 6 acres. The side is boarder js the one over grown with lily's and weeds. Deeper areas are maybe 4.5-6 ft deep right now, but it seems to seasonly vary by several feet.

Happy to report we ended up finding the property we wanted, with a natural small lake/large pond boarding it, no need to dig.

 

[jyoutz]

The pond I ended up with. It's kinda made up of two bowls with a narrower, shallower area between the two bowls. Each bowl is roughly 2.5-3 acres, for a total of 5.5 to 6 acres. The side is boarder js the one over grown with lily's and weeds. Deeper areas are maybe 4.5-6 ft deep right now, but it seems to seasonly vary by several feet.View attachment 3176808View attachment 3176809

Happy to report we ended up finding the property we wanted, with a natural small lake/large pond boarding it, no need to dig.

Just a question: being Florida, wouldn’t a pond be an alligator attraction?

 

[paulsharvey]

Just a question: being Florida, wouldn’t a pond be an alligator attraction?

Sure, even if they don't currently have gators, they move around, and I'm sure it will at some point. Gators are pretty much a non issue. Leave them alone, and you can be swimming, wading, fishing 50 ft away. Now, a 9 foot gator, I'd keep away from, but I've caught a 5 footer on land (funny story, but it was actually inside a fire station), and been swimming within 40 ft of 7 footers. Water Moccasins worry me more than gators.

 

[jyoutz]

Sure, even if they don't currently have gators, they move around, and I'm sure it will at some point. Gators are pretty much a non issue. Leave them alone, and you can be swimming, wading, fishing 50 ft away. Now, a 9 foot gator, I'd keep away from, but I've caught a 5 footer on land (funny story, but it was actually inside a fire station), and been swimming within 40 ft of 7 footers. Water Moccasins worry me more than gators.

You’re braver than me. Both of those are something I would stay clear of. I’ll take our small prairie rattlers to those huge moccasins and those mini dinosaurs.

 

[paulsharvey]

You’re braver than me. Both of those are something I would stay clear of. I’ll take our small prairie rattlers to those huge moccasins and those mini dinosaurs.

I'm not one of those people that are scared to death of snakes, nor one of those guys that seems to be missing that caveman instinct to avoid them. I know guys that will pick up rattlesnakes. Me, I'm the type that doesn't really think about them too much, but after I spot a snake, I'm definitely cautious.

 

[mikester]

Always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Around here that could be a very expensive mistake. Our government agencies have pretty steep penalties and forced land reclamation on your dime. Satellites and aircraft keep updating those government databases...

 

[Lineman North Florida]

Around here that could be a very expensive mistake. Our government agencies have pretty steep penalties and forced land reclamation on your dime. Satellites and aircraft keep updating those government databases...

Another reason for me to be thankful that I don't live and work where you are, point being some government agencies will make it virtually impossible for a landowner to do anything on their own property simply by asking a few questions, yet they will gladly accommodate you if you are willing to shell out many thousands of $ to them for permits and supposed reviews, and after that has been done everything is suddenly okay.