Bumper Vs. Gooseneck Payloads

[Iplayfarmer]

Brian,

I understand what you need in a truck for your work, but that was an unfortunate blanket statement to all of us who beat our 1/2 tons to death with no issues. I would like to have a 1 ton Dmax but can't justify the cost, plates, insurace etc for something I'll actually need 6 times per year. My half tons have never, ever failed me. You wouldn't believe what I've done to them.

No argument here, just defending the rest of us.

Likewise, no arguement from me. If I were working my truck everyday like Brian said, I'd have a 3/4 ton or bigger. As it is, it's likely that 170,000 of my 175,000 miles have been driven empty. The rest are pretty light duty stuff. On a rare occasion I'll overload my truck, but it's rare. I'm willing to admit that I'm the exception. I don't have a lot of ground or a big tractor, or most of the other reasons why most of you have heavy loads that you haul.

I pulled gooseneck trailers when I was in college hauling pigs from farm to slaughter. I really learned to appreciate the tow quality and all of the other benefits that I mentioned. In fact I was sold wholesale on goosenecks until I started figuring my load capacity based on the necessary percentages of tongue weight.

So what is the concensus? I've read a lot of pro/con of goosenecks and bumper pulls based on a lot of factors, but what are your thoughts when specifically considering the load capacity. On a 3/4 ton, aren't you held to the same limitations. Can't you haul more bumper pull trailer than gooseneck? Is 25% tongue weight necessary or can you comfortably get by with less?

 

[fowllife]

I say that if you want to go for it. You like how the GN pulls, and you have the capacity that you need so why not.

Of course I am one of those guys who has a 1/2 ton and works the **** out of it, probably 55k of my 61k miles were towing or hauling. And a lot of those miles I was overloaded, 10k-13k trailers. A set of bags for the back and a brake controler and I was off.

On a side note though, 3/4 tons don't always tow better then 1/2 tons. If you look at the GCVW, and allowable trailer weights of some of the newer 1/2 tons they are really close to some of the 3/4 tons when you figure in the weight of the truck. My brother in law has a newer 3/4 ton Ford, and his buddy with a '10 1/2 ton can out pull him all day long pulling identical campers.

 

[MD09]

Likewise, no arguement from me. If I were working my truck everyday like Brian said, I'd have a 3/4 ton or bigger. As it is, it's likely that 170,000 of my 175,000 miles have been driven empty. The rest are pretty light duty stuff. On a rare occasion I'll overload my truck, but it's rare. I'm willing to admit that I'm the exception. I don't have a lot of ground or a big tractor, or most of the other reasons why most of you have heavy loads that you haul.

I pulled gooseneck trailers when I was in college hauling pigs from farm to slaughter. I really learned to appreciate the tow quality and all of the other benefits that I mentioned. In fact I was sold wholesale on goosenecks until I started figuring my load capacity based on the necessary percentages of tongue weight.

So what is the concensus? I've read a lot of pro/con of goosenecks and bumper pulls based on a lot of factors, but what are your thoughts when specifically considering the load capacity. On a 3/4 ton, aren't you held to the same limitations. Can't you haul more bumper pull trailer than gooseneck? Is 25% tongue weight necessary or can you comfortably get by with less?

For what it's worth department,

Weight is yoru main concern along with vehicle capacity. The truck is set up to haul just so much either on the bumper or bed over that and the equipment starts working hard. Goosenecks gererally pull better due to the weight f the hitch being centered over the rear axle less trouble with "the tail wagging the dog". I have both GN and Bumper pulls, between the two teh GN trailer is much easier to pull and maneouver. GM will have a the tow ratign information for you rig, Combined Gross Vehicle Weght rating is a very good measuring stick if you do this a lot or run long distances. what ever you do Make sure the bake system on both the truck and trailer are in good working order.

Cheers
Rob

 

[Iplayfarmer]

...what ever you do Make sure the bake system on both the truck and trailer are in good working order.

Cheers
Rob

That is one of the motivations for the re-build. I bought new brake axles to replace the current no-brake axles.

I'm still hoping someone can chime in and clarify the 25% tongue weight for a gooseneck...

Is that max or is that what is needed? That makes a big difference whether I can make a GN work or not.

 

[slowzuki]

There's quite an overlap now, like I said, the 7700 kg pkg 1/2 ton Fords have the big V-8 and are great tow rigs, certainly outpower an older v-8 superduty, but not always outstop or out handle with a large trailer.

And if you notice, the current 3/4 ton tow ratings are creeping up as fast as the 1/2 ton's.

Not all 1/2 tons have the high tow rating, even with the V-8, many without max tow packages are still 6000-8000 lbs.

On a side note though, 3/4 tons don't always tow better then 1/2 tons. If you look at the GCVW, and allowable trailer weights of some of the newer 1/2 tons they are really close to some of the 3/4 tons when you figure in the weight of the truck. My brother in law has a newer 3/4 ton Ford, and his buddy with a '10 1/2 ton can out pull him all day long pulling identical campers.

 

[MD09]

That is one of the motivations for the re-build. I bought new brake axles to replace the current no-brake axles.

I'm still hoping someone can chime in and clarify the 25% tongue weight for a gooseneck...

Is that max or is that what is needed? That makes a big difference whether I can make a GN work or not.

To make a trailer pull correctly it has to be loaded evenly. A majority of the weight will be carried by the trailer axles, some will be carred by the hitch.
My question in what are you trying to load and carry? if this is a tractor you can adjust it to load but not overload the tow vehicle suspension/tires. Some amount of load will be on the truck rear suspension. Exactly how much that depends on the load and it's size. This methode is the most common way to load up with out a scale to measure weight per axle.

The difference between 20% and 25% visually will be hard to judge. I would not use up more than 1/2 of the vehicle suspension travel, and make sure the tires are not square on the bottom. if you are past this condition you are most likely over loaded to the point that soemthing is going to fail. Too heavy and the tail will wag the dog or the trailer will drive the tow vehicle.

Your question on loading GN vs bumper , the GN will handle the loading better due to removing the lever arm between the hitch point and the rear axle.

With 14K# behind my 450 I have about 3500 on the pin (GN)

I have had over 25K on a GN trailer behind my 350..... had to work to Balance the load correctly to keep from over loading the truck.

 

[fowllife]

No, you do not NEED 23-25%, that is the recommended MAX tongue weight. With the setup you are talking about you should be fine. Generally speaking I would think that tractor & GN flatbed would have a similair tongue weight as your camper or horse trailer. Those probably put more weight on your truck then you think they do.

 

[MD09]

PS the 350..... was over it CGVW by about 10K. Short trip and ended up killing on eof the rear tires.

 

[RobertN]

I have towed many 16' 2 axle 7000lb BP's, a few 8' single axle BP's, our Scout Troops 14' enclosed dual axle BP, and now a 27' 5th wheel(7500lb).

I find the 5th wheel is easy to back. But, it takes getting used to after years of using various BP's. After two years, I still find myself trying to back the 5th wheel like a BP; that is where I get messed up. When I back it like a 5th wheel instead of a BP, it backs very nicely.

The WORST, is the little utility trailers. My 16' flatbed BP tows nice and and backs nice; it tracks with the longbed xcab truck nicely. The short utility trailers though, wont turn, and wont turn, and then presto are jack-knifed.

You are correct. A properly installed GN hitch is 6" forward of the rear axle. I do not like them for off road stuff at all. Its easy to get the trailer into the tailgate or bed sides. Also as mentioned by Brian they are tougher to back up. Its all because of the ARM. On a BP you have a long arm from the rear axle to the pivot point, the ball. Maybe 4' on average. On a GN you are talking 6".

 

[slowzuki]

Thats strange, you can usually twist up a GN pretty good offroad without crunching anything, thats why farmers and offroaders use them. I have heard if you lift your superduty 6" and run 37" tires, there isn't a lot of room left and you can crunch your boxsides. The chevs sit a lot lower to start with and can go a bit bigger before getting into problems.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

No, you do not NEED 23-25%, that is the recommended MAX tongue weight. With the setup you are talking about you should be fine. Generally speaking I would think that tractor & GN flatbed would have a similair tongue weight as your camper or horse trailer. Those probably put more weight on your truck then you think they do.

Ever since I read this comment I've been looking for an opportunity to axle out my truck and loaded trailer. I had my two horses at the vet's office for Coggins tests last week. I was only 1/4 mile from work, so I took a detour to weigh the truck and trailer on the scale we have at work...

Front axle loaded: 3220
Rear Axle loaded: 2940
Trailer Axle loaded: 4100

Compare to my empty axle weights...

Front axle empty: 3200
Rear Axle empty: 2260

My tongue weight is only 700 Pounds or 15% of the trailer's weight.

One thing that came out of this exercise is that I realized I have plenty of room to add some weight to this load. My trailer axle is a 5800 pound axle. I could haul a third horse if I can figure out how to fit him in the trailer.

 

[Diamondpilot]

It has a 5,800# axle? Most axles in that class are either 5,200# or 6,000#

Chris

 

[Iplayfarmer]

It has a 5,800# axle? Most axles in that class are either 5,200# or 6,000#

Chris

You're right (again).

I walked out to the pasture and checked. It's 5200 lbs.

I still have room for another horse if I load the trailer right.

 

[grsthegreat]

You're right (again).

I walked out to the pasture and checked. It's 5200 lbs.

I still have room for another horse if I load the trailer right.

have them ride sidesaddle :laughing:

 

[Iplayfarmer]

have them ride sidesaddle :laughing:

That's a good way to put it.

I have loaded three horses before by slanting them. I now know that it's not overloading the truck or the trailer to do that. I may haul three more often now that I know.

See what good a careful axle weight check does.

 

[slowzuki]

You'd better make sure its even side to side if you do that, wouldn't want to overload the tires on one side and have a blow out.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Slowzuki brings up a good point. Make sure the tires meet or exceed the axle/trailer rating.

Chris

 

[QRTRHRS]

Been reading through this thread and a couple thoughts have come to mind. Swaying may not be as much of an issue with a gooseneck but ride quality can be terrible depending on the truck and trailer due to the natural flexing of the trailer. Jacking around can roll the tires off and put a lot of stress on the suspension. Right turns with a gooseneck require a little more planning ahead so you don't drag the trailer wheels over a curb, etc. One advantage for KY residents is that there is no sales tax on a gooseneck.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Slowzuki brings up a good point. Make sure the tires meet or exceed the axle/trailer rating.

Chris

Yeah. Tires are good.

This little gooseneck horse trailer only has a single axle, so raking the tires is not an issue. It does track to the inside a bit on turns, but I learned to account for that long ago when I was driving 18 wheelers.

As for my flatbed trailer, I decided to go with a bumper pull tongue. The choice was mostly due to fabrication costs. The gooseneck coupler alone would cost more than the total fabrication cost of the bumper pull style tongue. Add to that the cost of the extra steel that would be needed for the gooseneck arm, and I was priced out of that option.

 

[Reg]

Here's a general question for debate. Is it true that a tow vehicle can haul more with a bumper pull trailer than it can with a gooseneck?

Let's use my setup as a reference. I have a Silverado half ton with about a 1000 pound payload capacity after figuring passengers, etc. A typical bumper pull setup uses about 10% tongue weight. A typical gooseneck setup uses 25% tongue weight. My trailer payload capacities therefore are 10,000 pounds for a bumper pull or 4,000 pounds for a gooseneck.

I love my 5th wheel camper and my gooseneck horse trailer. I'm planning a full re-build on my flat bed trailer, and I was tempted to convert it to a gooseneck until I started looking at the above numbers.

I seems odd to me that I can haul less with a gooseneck trailer. What am I missing?

Without arguing the SPECIFIC figures you offered.... (yet)
The simple point is that with a goose you are "CARRYING" more of the load,
with a bumper-pull the TRAILER is doing the "CARRYING".
So yes, it is often true - especially with 1/2 ton trucks.

OK, now lets niggle away at the specific numbers that you offered;
(-:
I think the 25% is high, quite possibly worst case.
Many/most goose neck trailers have very little load "up there, over the truck".
MOST of the load for MOST owners is on the floor, which puts it at least 8ft 6 in back from the coupler.
Your horses are likely farther back than that, e.g. behind the tack room if you have one and pretty much ON the axles.
I would figure closer to 20%, possibly 15% on the pin.
Even then.... ??? .....Yeah you would have to get down to 10% for a match with a 1K payload limit.

Ah Hahh !!!
Mayhap 1/2 ton trucks aren't very good at that PAYLOAD thang ? (-:

OTOH, I'm not THAT comfortable with the thought of 10K wiggling around on a ball BEHIND a 1/2 ton truck either (-: