House flooding from nowhere?

[Hakim]

You might want to check the seals and caulking around all of your bathroom fixtures, especially baths and showers (those long "teenager showers" you mentioned ).

We had a leak from an upstairs bathroom around the soap dish (embedded in the wall of the shower. The water actually traveled downward and across beams, to appear more than 30 feet away form the source, in the kitchen.

Similar to the case here, it took a couple of weeks to locate the actual cause. Several plumbers thought it was coming from the water line to the ice maker. Not so.

In the end, it cost almost $30,000 to repair the damage and mold remediation. Hope your problem gets solved in a less dramatic fashion. (Note: the cost was paid by our landlord, not me! ).

But...do check those soap dishes in all baths, showers, etc. I would not have believed it if it hadn't happened to me.

Hakim
TBN Staff

 

[Dutch445]

could the warm floor be a non issue? is it possible
it's warm there because of the fridge exhausting out
the front ????

 

[jinman]

Well, American Leak Detection is onsite, so we should know something soon.

Hakim, that would be a super odd problem if it were something like a soap dish leaking behind tile. I believe the bath in question is actually a modular fiberglass tub/shower, but I'm not completely sure. That will be on my list to check if the leak detection company doesn't find the problem. We have looked and looked for any indication of wet sheetrock and there is just none anywhere that I could see in the whole wall were the leak seems to be coming from.

There is a heat duct in the ceiling above where the warm floor is, but it is directed toward the center of the kitchen. The heat had been off for a whole day when I was there last, but the floor was still warm. The refrigerator is over 6 feet away from where the tiles are warm, and the tiles around the refrigerator are normal temperature. It's wacky how this seems to be only to the side of the dishwasher.

We have had some rain and snow. That's why I had my SIL go up with the plumber into the attic to check vent pipes and hoods. Everything there was dry.

I just can't tear myself away from the warm floor tile. I believe that is going to be the defining symptom here. We shall soon hopefully have an answer to this puzzle. I'll let everyone know soon after I find out.

 

[hunterridgefarm]

Jim,

This is a long shot but possible. If the water is only showing up downstairs it is possible it is seeping in from the outside. I noticed from the pictures it looks like there are houses close by. It could be the water is comming from a neghibors house. A busted drain line underground from another house or her house, be it gutter drain or gray water. It could be seeping through the foundation wall or floor. You could take a long piece of rebar and push it down outside the house around the foundation close to the leak and see how soft the ground is. If your not findiing any water leaks inside from pipes or drains I would start checking outside underground. Good Luck.

David

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm still not clear where you are finding the water. Was the water itself warm? or just the floor tiles in one spot? The picture shows the kitchen, but I don't see whre the carpet is that's getting wet.

Back to the dishwasher. If it's the problem, and it's drain related, the running the sink should duplicate the problem. To find the leak in the laudry room that I mentioned earlier, I had to run the water into the drain for half an hour. I was sure it was the problem, but after awhile, I started to doubt myself. Once the water backed up, it was real eas to see the problem. Especially seeing how long it took to drain after overflowing.

I have allot of trouble with your busted drain lines under the house. The slab would really have to move allot for that to happen. While I've heard stories from people, and seen water lines break because of allot of soil movement, that would be a first.

Of course, being winter, and the graound is saturated, freezing conditions do move the ground around allot more then normal.

Eddie

 

[Steve_Miller]

When you were at the house did you by any chance just tap on the tile floor where it was warm? If it were wet or water under the tile you should probably notice the definite difference in the sound as the water would make it sound like a thud as opposed to a ringing sound from a solid object. Maybe you can trace the water across the floor doing this. It's one of those things that most of you know what I mean but can't explain over the phone or by typed words.

Steve

 

[jinman]

David, we walked all around the house looking for soft ground. There is none. The ground slopes away from the house all the way around and there is no seepage or wet soil that the plumber could find by probing.

Eddie, when you look at the picture of the kitchen, you can just see where the living room carpet begins. The carpet also goes to the left in the picture toward the entryway. That entry breezeway carpet is wet and so is the living room carpet out to about 4' in front of the counter/bar. The water is coming from the wall behind the refrigerator. My daughter turned off all water to the house and got it stopped and dry. Then, she turned the water on and started running showers and sinks upstairs. Nothing leaked. Only after doing a load of dishes in the dishwasher did the leak begin. It started in a pantry behind the refrigerator about 1/2 hour after the dishwasher stopped. The water started out cool, but my daughter says my son-in-law detected that it seemed to warm up. All the while, the floor between the end of the counter beside the dishwasher was warm. It was completely dry there and under the dishwasher with only water coming out from the baseboard behind the refrigerator. That's why this is so puzzling. The leak seems to be 10' away from the source.

Steve, the tiles in the kitchen were wet when the leak was first discovered, but after mopping up the water, the tiles dried and there is no oozing of water between the tiles. The warmth seems to be radiating upwards from the slab beneath the tile.

What is frustrating here is that my daughter and SIL have no blueprint of their house or foundation. This is just one reason I will never buy a house unless I have some detailed plans. They have nothing that shows where drains and plumbing tie in within the walls. How can you own a house without knowing this?

 

[EddieWalker]

Does the refrigerator have an ice maker?

Have they tripple checked every possiblity of water coming from the fridge? Ice melting? Ice buildup somewhere that's feezing and melting in some weird cycle?

I had a refrigerator have a fan go bad on the coils and the ice built up so bad that the refrigerator could no longer cool or freeze anything. It was under warrentee, and the guy who came out had to melt all the ice off of the coils to get to the fan before he could fix it. I found it funny that the ice was stopping the fridge from cooling.

What happens when you dry everything out realy good, then run the dishwasher over and over again?

Somehow, there has to be a way to recreate the problem. Until then, I don't know how else to find it.

Eddie

 

[jinman]

Eddie, you are thinking and asking all the same questions I asked. The refrigerator is having a problem, but the floor under it is dry. They say that the water is coming from the baseboard in a large pantry room behind the refrigerator. It is not originating at the refrigerator. I did not check this myself because they said they had moved the refrigerator out and checked it. I also don't see how it could produce between 5 and 10 gallons of water overnight due to freezing up.

I am willing to bet that when they find out why the floor is warm, they will find the problem. I think it is drain oriented because there was no water running --nothing-- at the meter with the entire house pressurized. You just can't get around those two issues.

 

[EddieWalker]

Dishwashers come out pretty easy. Just two screws and they slide right out. I'd pull it out and see what's going on when it drains.

Is there anything else in the pantry?

Where is the AC unit in the attic? I've seen roof leaks that worked their way down the walls without getting the sheetrock wet. In one case, the sheetrock was ruined, but by touching and pushing on it, you'd never know. After opening it up did it become obvious where the leak was and that the paint was allot stronger then we'd ever imagined.

Attic AC units reall do cause allot of water damage. It would be high on my list of things to look at real closely. One of those things that I'd have to see with my own eyes, and not rely on somebody who doesn't know allot about them to tell me that it's dry.

I take it that the laundry isn't anywhere close to this?

Eddie

 

[dave1949]

If food coloring doesn't stain carpet or tile grout ... you could put some food coloring in the dishwasher and run it. If the color shows up, it had to originate on the drain side.
Dave.

 

[kenstrac]

Would it be possible to pull the dishwasher out and attach a hose to the drain and let the water go outside and check for leaks ,then take hot water from the faucet and put it down the dishwasher drain,that would tell you if its the dishwasher line giving you problems, could be a water line only leaking when the solenoid valve closes on the dishwasher.

 

[dmccarty]

I will ditto what Dave suggested except maybe the more specific dyes made for leaks. I think you might have to have a black light to see them as well. They MIGHT have these AND a moisture detector at a rental store.

I would hope the leak company that was out had access to these things.

That warm spot is bothersome. If the warm spot comes and goes with the leak it has to be related. Which seems to get back to the dishwasher....

A dye in the dishwasher while it cycles might be interesting. But how is the warm water getting from the pantry to the kitchen ONLY when the dishwasher is run?

I am wondering if there is a large crack in the slab the channels the water from the leak to where the water surfaces at the carpet. With the tile on top of the slab you would not see the crack.

But what is causing the leak? Could a running fridge heat up the water in a crack under the fridge? Seems unlikely.

Which way does the floor slope? I had a toilet overflow in our city house which was on a slab. Thankfully the slab sloped to the utility room which had vinyl flooring. The water flowed from the bathroom under the sill plate and into the utility room where I was able to stop the water before it got to carpet.

Is the leak flowing from the source towards pantry wall and then somehow, crack in concrete?, the flowing back towards the carpet?

Later,
Dan

 

[EddieWalker]

Do they have pets? Are you sure it's water? hahaha

Eddie

 

[jinman]

Do they have pets? Are you sure it's water? hahaha

That's funny Eddie. On Saturday when the plumber was there, he noticed a wet spot by the back door. My grandkids thought that their little dog had had an accident, but my son-in-law looked at it and remembered that he had set down wet carpet padding there while he opened the door.

I'm adding a very rough sketch of the downstairs layout with the stairs going up to the 2nd floor. I've used a dark red line to show where the wall is that is leaking from under the baseboard. the red circle shows how far the water ran out and soaked the entrance carpet, some of the office, and some of the living area. I tried to show the location of the dishwasher and where the warm floor is located.

There have been some great suggestions here like kenstrac's suggestion about the dishwasher removal and testing. Use of dye would also be a great way to find this at this point when the amount of flooding can be contained and the carpet is already pulled back away from the leak. I'm pretty sure if the house were mine, I'd already have this figured out.

My daughter/son-in-law have had multiple issues all stacking up with their house and cars lately. Lightening wiped out their AC system and then after getting it fixed, another controller board failed. Their refrigerator is not working well and my SIL's truck suddenly developed a starter problem. Now they are down to one car. With my SIL and three teenagers working jobs plus all four kids in school, my daughter is almost doing full-time taxi service. I live 80 miles away and just can't help even though I did offer a car temporarily. In the last three days, she has had the AC people out, put the truck in the shop, and now has this leak problem. I don't even want to call for fear I'll just add to her hassle. I'm just waiting until she tells me what is going on. As soon as she tells me what they found, I'll let everyone know. With the cold weather coming in tonight, she needs heat and good water. I'm helping financially as well as with moral support, so hopefully this will be resolved soon. She knows I'd be there in a flash if needed.

 

[TBDonnelly]

Jim, I accessed the google volcanic activity pages and found that a hundred years ago there was volcanic activity in the exact region where your daughter/SIL's subdivision is located. More recently there has been renewed seismic activity and the earths core temperatures have risen by several degrees causing warm water spouts to rise to the earths surface in the most inopportune places.

Don

PS: Place this post in the far-fetched column.

 

[jinman]

Jim, I accessed the google volcanic activity pages and found that a hundred years ago there was volcanic activity in the exact region where your daughter/SIL's subdivision is located. More recently there has been renewed seismic activity and the earths core temperatures have risen by several degrees causing warm water spouts to rise to the earths surface in the most inopportune places.

Don

PS: Place this post in the far-fetched column.

Don, I'm sure that's it! I'VE CALLED HER AND DEMANDED SHE EVACUATE IMMEDIATELY!!!!!

 

[jinman]

The mystery is over. The leak has been located. The detection company pressurized the hot water line with air and could hear it hissing under the pantry room where water was coming out from under the baseboard. They believe water was travelling down around the hot water line going to the kitchen and that it found a place to pool under the tile in the kitchen walkway. It also seems that the hot water line did not leak until it heated up. Therefore, water had to be used in the kitchen to bring the temperature of the pipe up high enough to bring on a leak. Since water to the upstairs bathrooms and other locations did not flow through this line, the pinhole leak did not form. The reason no water ran at the meter was that the dishwasher and kitchen sink had to be running to heat up the pipe and bring on the leak. My daughter said you could clearly hear their leak with the equipment when they pressurized the line.

Now they have to drill down through the floor to make a repair. It's too far from the edge of the house to tunnel in. They aren't sure if the leak is going to be in a slab foundation beam. If it is, it will cost much more to fix. Also, there is a method called "E-Patch" which injects epoxy into a line without having to open the floor. This method has a 5-yr guarantee and they are checking if it is allowed by code. It would be the cheapest and least disturbance if it is allowed.

The insurance company has been very helpful. After their adjuster took a look at their houses wiring and plumbing, they told my daughter that all repairs including new carpet would be covered. They also suggested to her that she get in touch with the building code folks and have them do an inspection. It turns out that the builder didn't use shields on the studs over wire and plumbing runs. A search on the internet showed that this particular builder had multiple lawsuits against them for poor building practices and is on the verge of bankruptcy. I have not confirmed this; it's just what my daughter told me she had discovered.

So, how they will proceed is still up in the air. They are lucky to have a good insurance company. It's a super hassle no matter what turns out.

On the air conditioner, it seems that it failed previously on its own and my daughter and husband spent over $1000 on repairs. This failure is two control boards failing and will be a little over $600 to repair. The insurance adjuster seemed to think that wiring might have something to do with this although I don't know how (intermittent contact? wire gage too small?). I'm not sure of the brand of AC. It will be fixed today and they will have heat for the upcoming cold spell.

My SIL's truck is back on the road as well. Things are lookin' up.

 

[dmccarty]

What stands out to me in the drawing is that the clothes washer is really removed from the wet area. And that the dishwasher does not have wet carpet right next to it.

Then there is that wall with the bathroom. It seems like the bathroom vent and/or plumbing are in that wall. Is there a bathroom on the second floor that might be using the same wall for the vent and/or plumbing runs? Is the shower the kids are using near that wall?

Maybe the warm tile floor is a red herring regarding the leak....

Later,
Dan

 

[Bird]

Whew, glad they found the leak, and glad they have good insurance, but the repair doesn't sound like any fun at all.